DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
posted April 04, 2009 09:01 PM
Listen, a government should do what is in the best interet of the people, but a government does not act according to what everyone wants. A government does what everyone voted them to do (or not, but hypocritical political parties won't be voted on next election).
If a political party profiles itself according to "what the people want", you're going down a dangerous road. My main reason for this is: "the people" are stupid, let's face it. The nature of humanity can be pretty self-destructive or just hostile and I don't want a government to do what the frustrated labourer wants them to do. I want my government to think for itself. I want my government to keep it's country alive and keep according to their programme and if their programme is 'we do what you want', then it's a terrible programme.
How would they know what everyone wants? They don't, so they'll listen to the loudest (and most obnoxious) voices of the people and... It just goes downhill from that premise
@mvass: Oh if you read it that way, then yeah he isn't either.
You actually *can* make the difference, but somehow you knew what he was talking about yet you talked as if there's no public domain, as if it doesn't exist.
@Dagoth: well when I say that "it represents the people" I actually mean that it doesn't take provocative actions on something that all people (and living beings and some things at that) share. This isn't talking about money, because in my 'viewpoint' there's no "government theft of money" but rather a distribution of equal opportunities. That is, you wouldn't HAVE that money so basically it takes what you wouldn't have in another's situation. Obviously by this it doesn't represent any people, except that it tries to distribute opportunities (which cannot be controlled individually). Not sure if this makes sense.
____________
The above post is subject to SIRIOUSness.
No jokes were harmed during the making of this signature.
Quote:A school is a relatively small and local thing. What about bigger things? I don't feel that "everybody" owns the products of Congress's labors.
In theory the government is in office to act and work for the good of the whole body of society. It does so in the same way than the police - and not everyone is satisfied with the work of the police as service to society well.
If you have a big society you'll have comparatively many malcontents and the more complex society and therefore governmental tasks become the less people will be satisfied with everything the government does.
Now, the interesting thing is, that propaganda, which is political advertisement, is generally frowned upon, while economical advertisement is allowed. People are bombared with uncounted "product informations" everywhere and anytime, but that's it. Why does politics don't work the same way then? Little spots that offer newest info about public services, try to bring people to keep the roads and parks clean, advertise the effect of a good education as opposed to breaking up school.
Why can capitalism or the economic side of the soecietal coin can bombard people with tidbits of information that hammer the basics of the system solidly into people's brains, but not politics? Why is one form of brainwashing ok, but the other not?
The result of this is obvious: people embrace the bankrupt economics and blame exclusively the bankrupt politics when it's just a matter of one-sided brainwashing.
Because when people make a mistake in the market, they can avoid making that same mistake next time. But if they make a mistake in the government - then they may not be free to avoid that mistake ever again.
____________ Eccentric Opinion
"I bought a bad sewing machine. I guess I won't buy it next time!"
"I voted for Hitler. I guess I won't vote for him next time! O wait."
____________ Eccentric Opinion
Quote:"I bought a bad sewing machine. I guess I won't buy it next time!"
"I voted for Hitler. I guess I won't vote for him next time! O wait."
What the hell are you talking about? You mean there is no advertisement for presidential candidates?
Nor something like, I bought another FCKW-fridge, I guess in 10 years I'll buy one without any."
I didn't mean that and you should know it. What I mean is propaganda for the SYSTEM. Imagine being bombarded with spots of how to help the poor, how to keep the park tyidy, how to help the elderly, how easy it is to fill out requests and so on, help the police, go to vote, THIS kind of propaganda that simply supports the current system as if it was the most natutal thing in the world.
Quote:As for your other point, I don't see what you're trying to say.
Quote:"I bought a bad sewing machine. I guess I won't buy it next time!"
"I voted for Hitler. I guess I won't vote for him next time! O wait."
Nor something like, I bought another FCKW-fridge, I guess in 10 years I'll buy one without any."
I would have voted for Hitler, no wait was not that simple was it. What he did during his regein except for parts of the nazi ideal was good. Rebuilding the country, getting Germany back in shape, and more. So why not revote somebody who did a great job?
The sewing machine? If its crap the return it and get your money back, buy a better one instead.
If a political party does a crap job during its elected periode why would the people want to elect them next time? Heck if your poltical party did a crap job during its 4 year periode it should NOT get close to 50% of the votes in any case. The way that happens are if there are to few choices or the people are stupid. However as quoted: "The mass IS stupid".
____________
Quote:I support strongly regulating the political arena.
As for your other point, I don't see what you're trying to say.
You compare buying and returning something with voting a president, but that's a stupid comparison, because there IS advertisement for elections.
However, that's not the point.
Advertisement has become an integral part of our society, and apart from the actual effect a product ad has, the MASS of continous advertising as such, the fact that everywhere is product advertisement, is a message in itself that says:
BUY TOP NOTCH STUFF TO MAKE YOUR LIFE BETTER AND YOURSELF HAPPY!
It's brain-washing, nothing less. I mean, just think about how things would look when instead of product advertisement a different kind of advertisement would run: how you can help Big Brother and all the fine policemen just making sure that everything is fine, how helping them find malcontents and saboteurs starts by observing your neighbors and so on. Brain-washing, obviously.
So what we have is active brain-washing, and the message given is the one in capital letters.
So where is the counterweight? The active advertisement that shows the great effect of helping people, of the values of freedom and democracy, of the fact that there are other things in life than money and consuming things? Of enganging in political and social work and so on. The POLITICAL or SOCIAL ads that countermand the economical brain-washing?
Don't you see how one-sided everything is in support of the existing economical parole of buying yourself happy and everyone rich?
____________
"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
Quote:So why not revote somebody who did a great job?
Because of the suspension of political freedoms? Antisemitism? There is a number of reasons.
Quote:If a political party does a crap job during its elected periode why would the people want to elect them next time?
Maybe there won't be a "next time".
JJ:
You don't understand. I'm against the role of money in politics. But I'm fine with private advertisements, for the reasons I have outlined earlier. If you buy something you don't like, you can return it or not buy it next time - plus, it's not like it affects anybody else. But if you vote for somebody bad, they might abolish elections, or really mess the country up (which would affect everybody else).
____________ Eccentric Opinion
Is my post so difficult to understand? Your answer has nothing to do with what I say.
____________
"Nobody dies a virgin ... Life f*cks us all." - Kurt Cobain
Advertisement is part of our life in the US and the EU. It's everywhere, and everyone is used to it. It's sponsoring TV and events, it's in the public transport and on walls.
Now, take a step back for a moment and cross out the actual product that is advertised. Call the product just X and look at the GENERAL message that comes with EACH ad, no matter the product:
BUY ME AND GET HAPPY!
BUY ME AND HAVE FRIENDS!
BUY ME AND BE SUCCESSFUL!
BUY ME AND ENJOY YOUR LIFE!
BUY ME AND THINGS BECOME EASIER!
BUY SOMETHING NEW AND THRILLING!
FUN IS CHEAP TO GET!
GET THIS, GET THAT, GET HAPPY!
That is actually the message that comes around with it. And actually it's the ONLY message.
Now, while you may be resistant against SPECIFIC ad, that is, the actual product, you are NOT resistant against the general message, which is BRAIN WASHING. Every single person is brain-washed, day-in, day-out, to GET THINGS! Or, for consumerism. Without actually noticing it. Because there is no alternative.
Now, think about this: what would be the effect, if EVERY ad would be exactly the other way round. You'd see people deciding NOT to buy the new thing, but KEEP THEIR old stuff - would be rather easy, technically: showing things of why the old thing has been important for you, showing a hill with garbage, car wercks and so on. Imagine EVERY advertisement would be that way - let's say because it was a socialist state and the government would make the ad to influence people to keep stuff as long as possible before actually throwing it away and get something new - don't you think that consumer behaviour would be A LOT different?
So the points are:
1) People have been and are always more brain-washed to consumerism, materialism and capitalism; this is not a conspiracy or something, it's just the consequence of the "rules".
2) We'd need other advertisement, advertisement for being helpful, for other things in life than material things, for responsible behaviour and so on, as a counterweight (but if we had, so many people would call "brain-washing" it's a joke).
Quote:1) People have been and are always more brain-washed to consumerism, materialism and capitalism; this is not a conspiracy or something, it's just the consequence of the "rules".
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. They're not brainwashed at all. If they're consumerists, then it's their own fault for being stupid. And if they're capitalists, more power to them - they're smart enough.
____________ Eccentric Opinion
Quote:So why not revote somebody who did a great job?
Because of the suspension of political freedoms? Antisemitism? There is a number of reasons.
............... I'm back from easter and the mountains, and your not getting any better in that time.
You to learn how to read and stop attempting to make me say someting i am not saying? Quoting pieces appart is a bad habit.
Quote:I would have voted for Hitler, no wait was not that simple was it. What he did during his regein except for parts of the nazi ideal was good. Rebuilding the country, getting Germany back in shape, and more. So why not revote somebody who did a great job?
I said i was against the anti-semtic in here, why do you point at it then?
Quote:
Quote:If a political party does a crap job during its elected periode why would the people want to elect them next time?
This thread is pages long: 
posted April 04, 2009 09:01 PM
posted July 23, 2010 03:55 AM
