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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 23, 2010 06:34 AM |
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Excellent 
Unfortunately I think it's the kind of video that people will misunderstand and get the wrong message from. That's especially true since it was done with such a dramatic and almost sinister feel to it. The bottom line is that even though they tried to over-dramatize it, I think all that high level finance has very little effect on our day to day lives.
This is amazingly similar to something I thought about posting in the math thread about similar concepts, and specifically about technical trading.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 23, 2010 05:16 PM |
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Quote:
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1) People have been and are always more brain-washed to consumerism, materialism and capitalism; this is not a conspiracy or something, it's just the consequence of the "rules".
Wrong. Absolutely wrong. They're not brainwashed at all. If they're consumerists, then it's their own fault for being stupid. And if they're capitalists, more power to them - they're smart enough.
lol, that's conditioning. and don't think only stupid people are conditionned, because everyone is, it is almost impossible to avoid.
not a conspiracy? I wouldn't be that confident, some companies do try to brainwash people on purpose. billions of people are being turned into machines who can't think for themselves, and the society of consumption has a huge part of responsibility, for an obvious reason : machines can be programmed to do what you want. not a man who can think by himself.
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If they're consumerists, then it's their own fault for being stupid.
then you are stupid. 
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted July 24, 2010 12:44 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 00:45, 24 Jul 2010.
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If they're consumerists, then it's their own fault for being stupid.
Oh wow.
Maybe this should be printed on the box of everything that gets produced, something like every cigarette pack having those "Smoking causes cancer" stickers all over them.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2010 08:59 AM |
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What kind of nonsense is that?
What other reason except consumerism is there to accept and tolerate capitalism?
If you don't consume - why accept all that crap that comes with it?
I mean, seriously, what was the main point against the real existing communism: people had no motivation to work, there was nothing to consume.
So consumerism is vital, integral part of capitalism. In fact, a large part of capitalism evolves around making people consume things, that is, waking their interest for things they formerly didn't know they would like to consume.
As a consequence, the typical member of a typical capitalist state has too much of most everything including weight diseases, throws away a ton of useless junk or unnecessary stuff, half of the meals, and so on.
Consumerism is the capitalist way of life - without people consuming, capitalism would just deflate and die.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 24, 2010 12:48 PM |
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waking their interest for things they formerly didn't know they would like OR NEEDED to consume.
Aka luxurous materialism.
In all fairness, the flaw is more in the principle of "more and more". Or rather, stupid people being stupid. "Yeah I'd like an extra large bag of fries and a large coke." Fat snow.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 24, 2010 03:29 PM |
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But that's the flaw of capitalism, not of consumerism. If there's something on offer, offering more for the same price is often much more economical than offering the same for less money.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2010 04:57 AM |
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JJ:
There's a difference between being able to buy what you want and BUY BUY BUY.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2010 09:19 AM |
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Oh, sure. There is a difference between being able to smoke and SMOKE SMOKE SMOKE as well.
See, it's all a question of falling into a habit, and capitzalism makes sure that people fall into a habit quite freaking easily. Not to mention that growing up surrounded by people who do have a habit is pretty habit-forming as well.
So, what does everyone with their money, not buying? Giving to the poor? Saving for inflation to devaluate it? Buying shares? Real estate? Giving to the grandchildren, so they can buy another cell phone?
I'm so darn sick of reading how great it all is, because you have so many choices. Because it's just bull, since the most important choice of all you do NOT have, and that is the choice of how long to work, which is equal to deciding how much money you earn.
I'd grant you a semblance of a point, if people could DECIDE about their work time: "I'd like 3 8 hour-days a week only, because I'm content with earning 1500 a month only, because I want spare time to be with my friends and play Dungeons and Dragons."
However, you just have to take what is on offer, and when you work 60 hours per week in some ad agency, earning a wealth under permanent creative pressure you will spend the freaking money by doing and buying things you couldn't afford earning less. Otherwise, what was the point of wasting your life away in that miserable office?
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted July 25, 2010 07:21 PM |
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Uhr, dude, you're not supposed to say that. You're supposed to keep quiet and just work your ass off like a good little monke--.. A good little slav--.. Uhrm.. AH! A good little free person!
That's right, you're FREE! So stop whining!
*High fives the person who paid him $5000 to put out that propaganda*
There was a lovely picture somewhere once... Basicly it depicted a Bishop and Banker shaking hands, with the Bishop saying: "You keep them poor, I'll keep them dumb."
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2010 11:11 PM |
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Edited by Fauch at 23:46, 25 Jul 2010.
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JJ:
There's a difference between being able to buy what you want and BUY BUY BUY.
buying implies being a consumerist, no?
of course, you said ABLE TO. like some dudes are working to earn money and not buy stuffs with it
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See, it's all a question of falling into a habit, and capitzalism makes sure that people fall into a habit quite freaking easily. Not to mention that growing up surrounded by people who do have a habit is pretty habit-forming as well.
it's not fondamentally the problem of capitalism, but capitalism indeed exploits it damn well. the cause is egocentrism, the need to build a self that you and others can recognize as being you. it implies taking habits, otherwise, you would be unpredictable and impossible to categorize (at least, in terms of habits)
people do that, because they feel the need of security. of something which can't change and on what they could rely forever. but it just doesn't exist, which is the reason for a lot of pain.
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I'm so darn sick of reading how great it all is, because you have so many choices. Because it's just bull, since the most important choice of all you do NOT have, and that is the choice of how long to work, which is equal to deciding how much money you earn.
you do not decide what those choices are. they can even be used as lures to hide the facts that you have very little choices in reality (unless you are very strong-minded person) according to étienne de la boétie, Tyrants grant people various forms of entertainement to keep them "asleep". that way, they see what they gain, but forget all they lose. he also says, someone who is born a slave will find that normal and will not question why.
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I'd grant you a semblance of a point, if people could DECIDE about their work time: "I'd like 3 8 hour-days a week only, because I'm content with earning 1500 a month only, because I want spare time to be with my friends and play Dungeons and Dragons."
actually, you can choose, if you work for yourself. for the money, it's another problem. it seems just like a way to bind you and constrain you to go the way the system wants you to go.
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However, you just have to take what is on offer, and when you work 60 hours per week in some ad agency, earning a wealth under permanent creative pressure you will spend the freaking money by doing and buying things you couldn't afford earning less. Otherwise, what was the point of wasting your life away in that miserable office?
where the system is really efficient, is that it makes you believe that by consuming you'll be happy, but it only lasts for a short time, and then you need to consume again. and after a while, what was once exciting gets bland and you need even more. add to that a stressful life caused mostly by a dissatisfying job because it is actually useless and meaningless, and you have a "perfect working system"
note that often, people are told they are useless because they are replaceable, but the work itself is important because it contributes to the society. however in many cases, the main (and often only) purpose of that work is to contribute to the egoistic interests of a few people.
and in the end, people live dissatisfied, but persuaded that they at least do something useful and respectable, while they actually only contribute to the decay of the society.
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*High fives the person who paid him $5000 to put out that propaganda*
note that those people aren't free themselves.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 25, 2010 11:50 PM |
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I'd grant you a semblance of a point, if people could DECIDE about their work time: "I'd like 3 8 hour-days a week only, because I'm content with earning 1500 a month only, because I want spare time to be with my friends and play Dungeons and Dragons."
Part-time jobs exist.
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buying implies being a consumerist, no
No. It implies being a consumer.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 07:18 AM |
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@ Fauch
Quote:
actually, you can choose, if you work for yourself. for the money, it's another problem. it seems just like a way to bind you and constrain you to go the way the system wants you to go.
Actually, no, you cannot choose, because if you work for yourself, you have to work at least enough to keep you in the business, which is generally a lot more than people work, who do it for a boss.
@ Mvass
That's answering me, when I say, I want a TV with continously variable volume instead of one fixed setting, that there are a few models with 2 volume settings. Notmuch of a point.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 07:22 AM |
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Realistically speaking, TVs only have three volume settings anyway: "can't hear", "normal", and "turn it down". No one ever uses anything in between.
And there are part-time jobs of different lengths.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted July 26, 2010 08:38 AM |
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Realistically speaking, Mvass, there is just no freedom to pick where it counts: between time and money.
Which is, your part-time jobs notwithtaking, the main reason, why in the end it all amounts to BUYING.
You MUST invest a certain amount of time, earning you a certain amount of money.
There is no way to change part of that money back to TIME, when you have money left at the end of a month.
I mean, don't you see that?
If you take a look at the development of humanity you'll see that in the beginning most humans worked basically 16/7 just to get their lifes reproduced. Only in recent times things have changed, not only to people working less, so we are at a roundabout 8/5 now, but that this work time is sufficient to go for more than just the basics. In the first world that's true for the overwhelming part of the people actually HAVING a regular job.
Mvass, you are still going to school, so you don't know the world of jobs, but there are things you canNOT do, and here you can ask everyone including your parents:
If you do HAVE a job, that pays well, you canNOT go to the boss and say, boss, I don't need all that money I earn, I'd like to work one day less a week, and get 20% less money for that.
If you do HAVE a job, do it well and get a rise or even a promotion into a better position that is better paid, you canNOT tell the boss, thanks for the promoition and all, I take it, but instead of a rise I want to work less.
Consumerism is just a negative handle for what is actually fuelling the system. Everyone having something to sell is telling everyone else that you need the sstuff he's selling and that you'll be a happier person with it. And if you say, hey, that's a great thing, half a year later there will be a new and even better thing available and so on. It's just THE COMPETITION. Everyone is competing for the money you earn, so everyone is trying to capture your interest. And there will always be more of interest than you have money for.
And in the end EVERYONE has someTHING they are really fond of. I, for example, certainly am NO consumerist. For example, I have no business with cell phones. I have one, certainly, because it may come handy - but I have my cell phone as long as it works, and it cost me 30 bucks or something, it's prepaid, and that's that. But then, I've a thing going with PCs. I need one for work, but since I don't want to have an ugly deskstop standing around AND like to be able to take my work with me, it must be a laptop which is more expensive. Of course I need a spare model in case my work laptop breaks down - and I like to play compter games, so the spare laptop must be even better than the actual work laptop, which means I do NOT use my laptops until they break down for good. That means, I currently own FOUR laptops, all of them working.
Even if you like to go out - you'll consume events. Clubs, concerts, movies - you spend your money CONSUMING.
I happen to live in a country like Vietnam - it consist of one part having being capitalist and one part real existing communist, uniting 20 years ago. I happen to know some people who lived in the communist part before, and guess what they say?
They say that they won a lot in terms of material things, amenities and so on, making life easier and all - but on the other hand they wistfully look back because they also lost something. Since they couldn't buy a lot of things over there they had to fill their spare time in other ways, which was doing things with EACH OTHER instead of making use of things.
Mvass, you just have to get used to the idea that you ALWAYS pay a price for everything, and the price you pay for having many material things on offer is consumerism/materialism.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 10:18 AM |
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Quote:
Realistically speaking, Mvass, there is just no freedom to pick where it counts: between time and money.
Which is, your part-time jobs notwithtaking, the main reason, why in the end it all amounts to BUYING.
You MUST invest a certain amount of time, earning you a certain amount of money.
There is no way to change part of that money back to TIME, when you have money left at the end of a month.
EXACTLY - that's what makes me sad about current system.
It's much worse in Poland because of the low payment. To afford a small flat and food in Warsaw, you HAVE to work 8h per day in a demanding job, and that barely suffices, you pretty much have to be married or rent a flat with someone, else it's not possible... Well, unless you want to rent a room in someone's flat, but cmon.. where's the damn privacy?
If I want to spend 3 days on work and 2 days on playing dungeons and dragons... well, I can't. Because I'll be homeless or I'll starve. Part time jobs would barely suffice for food. BARELY. If you don't mind living under the bridge, sure...
The usual average:
Average job in Warsaw, 40 hours per week: about 500 euro earned per month
Average flat in Warsaw: about 300 euro (1 room, poor location)
Average food, bills and such cost: 200+ euro
And that is a VERY average flat RENTED. Wanna buy one? well... tough luck, that's out of the reach unless you're maried, in which case your salaries combine and you can afford the massive loan while having money for food... too bad you have to pay it for the next 40 years.
Quote:
If you do HAVE a job, that pays well, you canNOT go to the boss and say, boss, I don't need all that money I earn, I'd like to work one day less a week, and get 20% less money for that.
If you do HAVE a job, do it well and get a rise or even a promotion into a better position that is better paid, you canNOT tell the boss, thanks for the promoition and all, I take it, but instead of a rise I want to work less.
Precisely...
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 10:57 AM |
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Sorry, to disappoint you, Joonas, but that's a myth. 
The opposite is true.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 11:12 AM |
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This is why having your own company rocks.
You can work or choose not to work.
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Sorry, to disappoint you, Joonas, but that's a myth.
The opposite is true.
Just a quickie before I go to bed....ditto what JJ said. It's a matter of personal taste, but I've done both and I would MUCH MUCH rather work as an employee than work for myself with my own business.
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Doomforge
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posted July 26, 2010 11:19 AM |
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I never tried it myself, but I heard that you need a lot of dedication and time in order to make your private business work. Much more than 8h per day, some say. Sure, once things start looking good you may have more time than an average employee... but after 20 years of working 10-12h per day, it's not something I'd be overly enthusiastic about.
Unless, of course, you don't start from scratch. If you inherit two million dollars, your private business may be something entirely different. But hey, if I inherited two million dollars, I'd rather put them on a deposit and live off the interest. Should be 10x average salary anyway, which would be nice considering all that free time 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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Doomforge
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posted July 26, 2010 11:26 AM |
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Was it always that way? Perhaps he had to work much harder when he was younger in order to set his business straight.
What is he doing, btw?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted July 26, 2010 11:54 AM |
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Well. Health businesses profit from health system, if there are national regulations like general health insurance (how's that in Finland) and from the artifically regulated competition (if there are those).
Your father may profit from that.
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This thread is pages long: 
