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| Thread: Collaboration project: Let's make a Dwarven Fortress! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2008 01:18 PM |
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Collaboration project: Let's make a Dwarven Fortress!
Ok, there's been a bit of divided oppinions in the future factions thread about whether Dwarves are a suitable race for a town. So I say: Ok, let's make it a challenge!
So here's the project: Bring in your suggestions for units you would like to see in a Dwarven Fortress. The framework is going to be exactly as it the current one - i.e. living in snowie terrain, worshiping god of fire, etc. What we're going to do is try to come up with a range of units that we can "all" - or at least a majority of us - accept, and which will make a both coherent and waried line-up.
I would myself like to bring in the following units:
The Defender: A solid tank unit, with great defensive properties. Probably low level, could remain level 1, but could go to level 2 or 3 also.
The Rune Priest: Another healthy concept from the Heroes 5 Fortress is the Runepriest: The classical ranged/caster unit at mid-high level (level 5 works good, but could also be 4 or even 6). Spells like Firewall and Fireball sit good with the Fire theme, Mark of Fire and Crossfire likewise.
The Magma Dragon: Let's admit it, these guys are awesome and cool at the same time. A great approach for a tanky level 7.
Any objections?
Current suggested line-up:
Level 1: Defender / Shieldguard
Level 2: Hammer Thrower / Axe Thrower
Level 3: Brawler / Berserker
Level 4: Black Bear / Polar Bear
Level 5: Rune Priest / Rune Patriarch
Level 6: War Maiden / Valkyrie
Level 7: Fire Dragon / Magma Dragon
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What will happen now?
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 01:29 PM |
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Not any objections at all 
I liked the bear riders as well, but it's ok if they have to go.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 01:32 PM |
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K
My idea is to add some snow creatures. It will be very intresting. In addition, a Roc and a Thunderbird for the 6th level can be great, if you make their story stuitable. One more Dwarven unit would be good, to make it 3 humaniod Dwarven units overall.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2008 01:44 PM |
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Bear Riders and Thunderbirds added to tentative line-up for the time being. 
I like Bears myself, although I would perhaps discard of the mounted Dwarf (which I found looked a bit silly) - hence the naming Bear +/- Dwarf. I also pushed them to level 4, because they seem pretty much more powerful than most other level 3s atm.
Any specific suggestions for snow creatures?
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What will happen now?
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 02:11 PM |
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I you would like to touch the subject of buildings too, I suggest adding the very interesting building that was the dwarven Treasury in HoMM3's Rampart as a new building for the Fortress (for those that don't recall what it does, it earns 10% interest on the gold had at the start of the week).
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 02:18 PM |
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On the issue of the bear, you could search any kind of mythology to see if there is perhaps some kind of bear creature somewhere, and use that concept.
Although the whole Thunderbird / Thane concept is practicly identical, I would disdain the idea of Rocs being a snow terrain creature.
Potential inspiration
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 03:04 PM |
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Thunder Bird doesn't suit the Geman/Irish mythology...
But with the rest I do agree...
For level three there could be given exo-skeleton. Something like golem but with dwarf inside (can't be doen unless you are able to change geometrics though :/)
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Geny 
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 03:29 PM |
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You know what would be cool imo? A golem. Not the wizards' robots, but a huge rock creature that can be found in deep mines and is tamed by the dwarves for easier mining, but can also be trained for combat. Hold on, I'll try to find a pic of what I mean...
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted February 21, 2008 03:34 PM |
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Level 1: Dwarf Shieldguard / Defender / Stone Defender
Level 2: Gnome / Gnome Tracker/ Gnome Pyromancer
Level 3: Snow Ape / Yeti / Guardian
Level 4: Brawler / Battlerager / Berserker IMPROVED! (more health, better attack and initiative than BR etc)
Level 5: Rune Priest / Rune Keeper / Rune Patriarch
Level 6: Roc / Thunderbird / Frost Eagle
Level 7: Fire Dragon / Magma Dragon / Lava Dragon
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 03:53 PM |
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Ok, I give up. If somebody has a picture of big, hulking rock golem, I would appreciate it if they post it here.
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Sargeras
Known Hero
the Fallen
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posted February 21, 2008 03:57 PM |
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i have a couple ideas...(don't flame me cause i'm inspired with wow)
LVL 1: Rune Guardian - Exemplar (weak, large numbers, maybe can have some ability like inspiration to boost morale of nearby friendly stacks)
LVL 2: Forge Warden - Vindicator (archer with mortal strike that can have chance (%) to shot like with no range penalty or something like that)
LVL 3: Steam Sentinel - Bone Crusher (mechanized, magic prot. + something like rampage ability; can sacrifice health to double his attack skill)
LVL 4: Flame Lizard - Lava Salamander (i think that rocks/thunderbirds aren't for dwarves ...lizard can be fire immune or have prot. and combustion to damage everything in 2 square radius or similar)
LVL 5: Rune Lord - Geomancer (ranged/powerful caster, i dont know maybe some aura that when cast spells can affect hero to move up on the ATB bar - magiacal attunement  )
LVL 6: Granite Avatar - Obsidian (powerful meele dwarf, golem or elemental that have stone skin or balance or **** gives him chance(%) to halve damage dealt to him 
LVL 7: Chromagon - Ragnaragon or something like that (no more dragons plz...i would like for him to be a big wurm or somekind of basilisk with ability one per combat to deal double damage aka. DEVASTATE --- pure power 
...my vision of dwarves...
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Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control...
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 21, 2008 04:24 PM |
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Edited by Cepheus at 17:53, 21 Feb 2008.
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Irish mythology in the Fortress? Sorry, I think not.
IMHO I'd have liked to see the Crystal Dragon at Tier 7 (or at least for it to replace the "Lava" Dragon, heck Magma and Lava are the same thing in different places). Efreeti would be great additions, but I'd be for dropping the dual snow 'n' fire-based theme, and I agree with losing the Dwarf on the Bears. Thunderbird might fit also, and why make Wolves neutral when they're at home here?
I'd say:
Tier 1: Wolf / Dire Wolf / Lupine (offensive, quick but vulnerable)
Tier 2: Shieldguard / Defender / Mountain Guard (simple fighters ala Heroes I-III)
Tier 3: Spearman / Skirmisher / Halberdier (ranged fighters)
Tier 4: Polar Bear / Glacial Bear / Bear Rider (more tanks)
Tier 5: Rune Priest / Rune Patriarch / Glyph Sage (spellcaster, ranged)
Tier 6: Giant Eagle / Roc / Thunderbird (swift, powerful flyers)
Tier 7: Crystal Drake / Crystal Dragon / Dragon Golem (slow, defensive flightless dragon. The Golem is a Golem, not the Heroes IV robot)
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"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted February 21, 2008 07:19 PM |
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Quote:
Ok, I give up. If somebody has a picture of big, hulking rock golem, I would appreciate it if they post it here.
Something like this? 
Reading through the last number of posts has made me realize a couple of things that I never really put systematic thought to before.
The first, I will call the Ice/Fire Paradox: By placing the Fortress in the snowie terrain, and at the same time make them worship the Dragon God of Fire, Nival combined two opposite and quite incompatible elements in one faction. That, somehow, seems to cause some confusion when making line-ups: Should creatures be Fire alligned (Fire Dragon, Efreet, Rune Priest) or Water alligned (Polar Bear, Yeti), and to make things a completely mess, Nival made the Thane Air alligned with his lightning strike, which translates directly into the Thunderbird - which, when thinking about it, is an odd choice for a fire faction in the snow.
Thus, I think in order to make a really coherent line-up, one faces a decision: Do we need a faction with creatures alligned to Fire, Water, a combination or even something that is all over the place (like the Nival fire-water-air-mess!). Personally, I think choosing either Fire or Water will make the most harmonic choice. Interestingly, this choice relates very well with the next point.
The second, I will call the Animal/Construct Schism: Being placed in a snowie terrain, there are a lot of Animals that naturally fit into the Fortress element: Wolfs, Polar Bears, Mammoths, even Pegasi might fit in here. On the other hand, the society one traditionally relates with the Dwarves is that of an industrious people, iron working being their speciality, which in terms makes an excellent fit with the fiery theme. Even the Fortress Grail building hints at this: The Blazing Anvil. This would favor a line-up with constructs and mechanical units - ironically, the (mechanical) Golem would sit better here than in Academy, the Dragon Golem could make a return, and one could have other semi-industriuos machines here. Likewise, elemental creatures like the Fire Dragon, Rock Golem, Fire Giant and even Efreet would fit into the latter frame.
Again, either option is possible, whereas a combination quickly ends up with something that will be a miss-match. Like said before, this also relates quite tightly to the whole elemental discussion: To put things on the edge, one could cut it down to the following options:
Fire Fortress: Dwarves with Constructs and Elemental creatures (+/- Gnomes or Halflings).
Ice Fortress: Dwarves with Animals.
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What will happen now?
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 07:48 PM |
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@alc
Yes, that's what I was talking about (maybe just a little wider in the shoulders to give him a 'huge rock' look).
I think it should be a Fire, Water combination with emphasis on Fire. I'm not sure if I can explain, but I'll try...
The dwarves worship the Dragon of Fire, they work with fire and depend on fire to survive (i.e. not freeze to death). However, a volcanic/desert theme wouldn't suit because both places are scarce with resources while the icy mountains are rich with minerals and metal for the dwarves to work with or just store in their treasuries.
So where does that bring us in terms of units? The dwarves themselves should be either just armored, "elementless" warriors with the exception of fire-oriented rune priests. The creatures should be a combination of fire units (especially the fire dragon) and natural beasts that can survive in the cold mountains (e.g. polar bears). If you would like a connection between them, try this one for size: all of them generate/keep high temperatures around/in their bodies to survive in the cold.
What we get is a mix of furry "Water" creatures - bear, mammoth, wolves, yetis (but not pegasi, mermaid...) and Fire creatures that can survive in icy terrain - fire dragon, fire giant, constructs (but not salamander, I personally also find efreet not suitable for this cold terrain).
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted February 21, 2008 08:22 PM |
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On the note of Thunderbirds, I would go with a new concept: Roc > Frostbird.
About the whole fire / water thing, I do wonder if you're not pulling too hard on associated elements of creatures? Admitted, when you look at it like that, it does seem like a mess, but then, I always thought H5 Fortress was a mess to begin with anyway...
Another option would be to add the fire / water aspect in the Alternative Upgrades department, one line of upgrades being of the water element association, the other of fire. But again, this creates complexities.
I would favour the fire allignment for the Fortress town, for multiple reasons.
1. > Snow based animal units can be made neutrals easily, potentially associated with the Fortress town.
2. > The whole fire / forge / construct concept offers a more original and diverse approach.
3. > There is a lack of factions that easily have Fire as their main element, Inferno being the only one. There is already more than one faction that can easily be associated with Water.
Tossing golems and any constructs into Fortress though will create a gap in Academy that isn't easily filled, given they only have 1 creature of their native race (the mage), unless you fully twist it into an egyptian lore focussed magic town, which will steer it further away from the whole medieval fantasy centered game. Tough issue here for me.
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted February 21, 2008 08:29 PM |
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Quote:
Tossing golems and any constructs into Fortress though will create a gap in Academy that isn't easily filled
That's why I proposed to put in golems as magical creatures rather than constructs. Of course they'll have a different name, but that's just details. And I don't feel that the dwarves must have constructs, they can focus no quality armor/weapons and maybe some mechanical devices like the crossbow (although a dwarven crossbowman is heavily overused in fantasy).
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DarkShadow
Legendary Hero
Cerise Princess
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posted February 21, 2008 08:30 PM |
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Thane's are linked with rune's,so they are 75% must,maybe:
1.thane
2.thunder thane
3.runemaster?
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Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
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posted February 21, 2008 08:43 PM |
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Alc has really said it all for me.
On the Golems issue, I do feel they'd be suited somewhat to the Fortress as well. The older games had a viable reason for including Golems with Mages, but now that Heroes has moved on to "mechanical" Golems rather than "animates", the lore-based argument is gone and to me they are out of place in the Academy.
The Fortress, on the other hand, has a slight history of Golems - the Heroes IV Academy (which was basically an amalgam of our current Academy and Fortress) featured Dwarves and Golems together for the first time. It was a good concept IMO.
Whereas in this game, for whatever reason, Nival seems to have deliberately steered towards a pure-fantasy Dwarven race rather than a mechanically-literate one. Not really much of a wise move, setting the entire city in a blazing machinery-laden furnace while ommiting any and all mechanical units in the armies...
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TDL
Honorable
Supreme Hero
The weak suffer. I endure.
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posted February 21, 2008 08:46 PM |
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Edited by TDL at 20:47, 21 Feb 2008.
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As far as I am concerned with the dwarven line-up, I had come up with quite an agreeable lineup (or so people told me ) a while ago in one of my threads. Noticeably, it was not perfect, but still worth a look.
However, if the factions are subject to change, and we are discussing dwarves re-introduction into the game, the situation changes. I agree with what most of you speak and I will not discuss the main prospects, but outline a few things I noticed.
The construct vs animal (fire vs ice) Fortress. First off, the rune magic, even though according to the new concepts it belongs to them, i'd rather have it no longer, but it should not matter with either concept. Secondly, I'd rather have first concept-wise but i prefer the 2nd one if we retain some magical racial skill for them.
As you mentioned, if we have a construct dwarf town, golems could be there. But concept-wise, I'd rather not (basicly, cause i'd prefer them out in the next installment). Golems are magically animated metallic humane bodies. They STILL are. Does not matter really if mechanical or not. Due to this, they are due with the mages. Besides, if I were to recreate the factions, I would even have Flesh Golems as an alternative upgrade for a zombie.
And of course, I'd choose to omit dwarves from the game. They were a nice addition, but unsuccessful and to be honest quite boring .
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Andrelvis
Adventuring Hero
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posted February 21, 2008 08:56 PM |
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Quote:
@alc
Yes, that's what I was talking about (maybe just a little wider in the shoulders to give him a 'huge rock' look).
I think it should be a Fire, Water combination with emphasis on Fire. I'm not sure if I can explain, but I'll try...
The dwarves worship the Dragon of Fire, they work with fire and depend on fire to survive (i.e. not freeze to death). However, a volcanic/desert theme wouldn't suit because both places are scarce with resources while the icy mountains are rich with minerals and metal for the dwarves to work with or just store in their treasuries.
So where does that bring us in terms of units? The dwarves themselves should be either just armored, "elementless" warriors with the exception of fire-oriented rune priests. The creatures should be a combination of fire units (especially the fire dragon) and natural beasts that can survive in the cold mountains (e.g. polar bears). If you would like a connection between them, try this one for size: all of them generate/keep high temperatures around/in their bodies to survive in the cold.
What we get is a mix of furry "Water" creatures - bear, mammoth, wolves, yetis (but not pegasi, mermaid...) and Fire creatures that can survive in icy terrain - fire dragon, fire giant, constructs (but not salamander, I personally also find efreet not suitable for this cold terrain).
This summarises the most logical stance on the fire / water question. Living in the snow, it makes much sense both for the dwarves to have power over cold (water), as there is just so much of it and associated things around them, and for them to have power over fire, because it certainly helps them living in those extreme conditions. In the end, the creatures that fit most for their line-up would be the ones that either are good at surviving in the cold environment by being associated with it's water element, adapted to it (like Mammoths, etc.) or those that, although their natural habitat would be a hotter place, they can also survive pretty well on the snow thanks to their ability to use the opposite element of water - fire to heat their bodies and survive.
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