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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 01, 2010 01:23 PM |
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Thank to you I reviewed latest games.
Too bad I'm not so strong in chess to understand everything  .
But seems it will be very interesting.
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Ecoris
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 01, 2010 01:34 PM |
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted May 14, 2010 10:18 AM |
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The Anand-Topalov match was quite cool, altough it started with a minor difficulty provided by the volcano eruption on Iceland which prevented Anand from flying to the scene. This made the competition very exciting before it had even begun  . Anyway, the games was great and the two players were tied until the very end, finally Anand managed to win.
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 14, 2010 10:33 AM |
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Yes, match was great.
I followed it from 6th game.
Thrilling course of events and amazing final.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 14, 2010 10:46 AM |
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I just watched some of the games. I recall Anand as someone who plays in a very 'daring' way, often making the unexpected move, making sacrifices that would seem like a disadvantage, but far ahead in the game, it's a huge advantage.
It reminds me also of the difference when human plays against a computer. Such 'daring' tactics makes the computer a lot better, than when playing a very closed match, because the computer can count ahead much much better than the human brain. On the other hand, on a very closed board, it's a lot more about to see the potential effectiveness of each piece and not as much about to "simply" count ahead, where the human mind is superior.
I recall a match, not sure if it was Anand or Kasparov who played against the machine, in one match a sacrifice was tried, a sacrifice that normally led to win, and in experience was a good move, however the computer counted very very far ahead and found a counter for each and every thing the grand champion threw at it under the attack gained in return of the sacrifice. In the end the computer was victorious.
It's funny, I think, if one should rate a computer, the computers rating would actually depend more on how you play against it, than how good it is (if you sacrifice a lot, depending on being able to count ahead, it'd not surprise me if the computer would be at a strenght of 3000 rating points if not more), however if you play a very closed game, the computers strenght probably lies around 2700-2800, I'd guess.
Edit: and that's a huge difference!
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Living time backwards
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 14, 2010 11:12 AM |
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Yea, I remembered Anand idea in 9th game to trade queen by 2 rooks bringing huge imbalance in the game. That was unexpected. Though the game was drawn, which is nice and shows the level of players ready to every non-standard situation.
About machines: I think potentially machine rating has no upper bound and with development machines should be much stronger than humans. I recall nice dimis' thread about Artificial Intelligence.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 14, 2010 11:23 AM |
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I agree on your considerations about machines having no upper limit, though I think if there do exist a 'perfect' game type of chess (i.e. white or black always wins, or it's always a draw) then I'm not certain how the rating system would cope with said limit. [As either always one colour would loose, or every game would be a draw].
I'd also like to include that, since we're not our ability to think and through that calculate, rather that's an ability of ours, through manipulation of said abilities I'd say the upper limits for machines and humans are identical in every aspect of what the machine can do.
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Living time backwards
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ihor
Supreme Hero
Accidental Hero
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posted May 14, 2010 06:25 PM |
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I've never thought about it before but I like this idea of 'perfect' game. Chess is finite game (finite set of strategies, finite number of possible moves) and probably one day we will have 2 supercomputers which could play the perfect game.
Something prompts me that the perfect game should end with draw and I think perfect game is not unique, so at some time computer/human could make different moves but the outcome will remain the same.
It reminded me some interesting things from "Did you know" clip.
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted May 15, 2010 09:54 AM |
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Well, computers' thinking lines are very mechanical, so they are bad at planning sacrifices (which requires creative thinking) and strategical ideas. However, they are stronger in tactics, foresight and have perfect memory for openings. Strategic human players like Kasparov had very interesting games against computers (Deep Blue), but Kasparov managed to win the game because he knew that computers suck in positional play and managed to steer the game into that way.
I think that chess is very far from being solved, thus we're still quite far away from the perfect game. BTW, speaking of possible legal positions in chess, well, let's play a little. Without searching after it in google, what do you think how many legal chess positions are there that are possible to reach in one game, form the firs move until checkmate or draw? I'm curious to see your thoughts about it.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 15, 2010 11:26 AM |
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Hi Keldorn, when you write legal, do you mean assuming an opponent is at a given skill value or do you mean just as being possible given the rules of chess?
I don't know, but I'm certain it's finite, if we only count each possible position once, because it's finite how many ways one can arrange a finite amount of pieces on a finite space (finite in relation to the pieces).
About the 'perfect' game (hoping we understand it the same way) I completely agree that there probably are many ways a perfect game can be played. The point, after all, is the "win in X moves" contra "draw in X moves", and getting X as big as possible, yet I'm certain that there are many diferent moves that does not change the outcome, but it should be those that do that's interesting. [I.e. the set of moves A-D means a 100% draw assuming both plays to the best possible, the set of moves E-F means a 100% win under the same assumptions and the moves G-V means a 100% loss under the same assumptions].
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Living time backwards
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted May 15, 2010 03:12 PM |
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When we say legal position it means that it can be reached by the players, making only valid moves according to the rules. Anyway, would you make a guess? Just a number, what do you think how many such positions are there?
The definition of the perfect game is as follows:
From the original position, white to move and mate/draw in X, where x is a number in which white can force a win or draw with 100% chance, regardless of how black responds to each move. I wrote win/draw because we are not sure that white can force win from the starting setup. Some supercomputers have already been set to analyse this problem, but for the answer (Why it is so hard to evaluate the win or draw problem?), we have to look back to the previous issue: how many legal positions are there? Furthermore, how many moves in advance must the computers think? These are questions that are yet to be answered before computers can fully solve the game of chess. This could take up to a pack of decades! Even our supercomputers are currently too slow for such a problem. Waaay too slow.
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted August 21, 2011 10:33 PM |
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Edited by keldorn at 22:42, 22 Aug 2011.
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Hello everyone!
I'm sorry indeed. It has been decades since I passed away from the Heroes series and thus HC. However now I reinstalled WoG because I'm anxious to see the new things available and of course have some fun with the old ones too. But this shouldn't be our concern. So, I thought, why not revive my little thread here, on the other side forums too?
Well, OK, It's not very fair to revive a thread. But as time passed by, I got better at chess and I became even more enthusiastic about it. I've got many new ideas to make this thread a really great headquarters of chess where we can have an exceptionally good time solving problems, learn new things or just chat around about chess. So what do you say? Can I count you in? 
EDIT: Frankly, I'm a little discouraged to be in this situation. I expected more activity but you know what. Perhaps a brand new puzzle would bring the spirit back.
Black to play and win material. This one is kinda tough, so feel free to post here and not via HCM. Maybe this should forge the team together again. *crosses his fingers*
By the way, some new features I'd like to add in the near future:
-Complete analysis of games including opening explanation, tactical and strategical ideas coverage and alternate thinking lines (in other words what would have happened if...).
-More quiz posting to check your chess knowledge. These will include the old-style mate in X problems, material winning puzzles and riddles concerning positional play, but I'd like to add some new features as well as explain the mistake, give alternate line, find a plan etc. These are gonna be interactive too: I'll post the excercises about what you want me to.
-Interesting facts about chess and its world. Also, if we encounter a chess event, I'll provide coverage and support about it (what is the event, who are the participants, results, games, scores, and many others)
-Weekly opening courses. Every week we'll choose an opening together and discuss it, revealing the positional secrets it may hold. You'll learn how and how not to play a certain opening, what piece development is correct and why, how to aim for a positionally sound pawn structure etc.)
-Contests about chess that will hopefully provide fun to all who participates. Just an example. Create your own puzzle and let us solve it. The deeper your position's solution is, the more fun. Show us your skills.
-And of course, plenty and plenty of puzzles from the easiest to the mind-strechers so as to avoid boredom.
Also, as I wrote above, I'd like to make this thread interactive. If you have ideas about how to improve the community here, or simply have a nice puzzle, please feel free to post them. Have a nice time
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted August 23, 2011 11:13 AM |
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Edited by Minion at 11:16, 23 Aug 2011.
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Queen eats the Knight and checks
1. Qxd4+
White has a couple moves to do, where the obvious one seems to be eating the queen
2. Rxd4 - Rc1+
3. Rd1 - Rxd1#
but which unfortunately would lead to a checkmate and loss for the white player
a better move for white is
2. Re3+ - Qc4
3. Rc1
Which leads to a situation where black has one pawn less but white has one Knight less.
After Qxd4+ white could also move the King or Queen but those would lead to situations where white looses even more than just a Knight.
Anywhere near correct?
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 23, 2011 11:26 AM |
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Hello again Keldorn  Mind if I be your assistant once more?
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted August 23, 2011 12:16 PM |
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Edited by keldorn at 12:43, 23 Aug 2011.
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@Minion: Yes, Qxd4+ is the move, but it gets a bit complicated because white can block the check with the check of his own. Re3+! is best, but we have a refutation to that move as well. Your move, Qc4 is pretty good, altough I calculated the simple Kf8 as best. But that's just positional difference. The pressure is bigger on white after Kf8, so that might result in other tactical possibilities later. But indeed, full credit for Qc4. Great work
@Doom: Dare I say no to a Hero of Order? (Hereby congrats to your 'new' status )
And finally, I'd like to say welcome again. We're at large, watch out HC!  Should you have any questions, suggestions, puzzles, please don't keep it within yourself
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted August 23, 2011 04:28 PM |
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In this post I'm gonna test something new that will be a very useful tool if I manage to get it working. It will be a short GIF animation demonstrating a position and the moves of the players.
Please let me know whether the following minuature game is understandable and well-visible to you. Also, if you'd like me to make it slower/faster/bigger or anything, please let me know. The image is pasted both at the beginning and at the end of the analysis so you don't have to go back and forth between reading and watching. So here it is:
This game was played between Gioachino Greco vs. Unknown in 1619. Greco was the first master we know about and has invented many chess principles such as basic opening theory.
1.e4 b6 This signals the Queen's fianchetto opening. Black is ready to accept a strong pawn centre and pressure on the kingside, and in return gets a wide selection of responses including a counterattack in the centre, or an attack on the queenside.
2.d4 Standard move. White builds up the classical centre pawn formation.
2... Bb7 3.Bd3?! It seems a bit awkward to defend the pawn this way. Nc3 was more natural and better. However, in the 17th century people didn't know the principle of 'Knights before Bishops'.
3...f5!? a risky move as it weakens black's king. As this game illustrates, openings can be very dangerous. A better and safer break-up move was d5.
4.exf5 white accepts the gambitted pawn and now the show's on!
4...Bxg2 5.Qh5+! see how the weakened diagonal is exploited?
5...g6. Forced. 6.fxg6 Nf6?? Black is playing for material (namely the a1-rook) but fails to notice the mate in two. Instead, 6...Bg7 7.gxh7+ Kf8 8.hxg8=Q+ Kxg8 9.Qg6 (or Qg4) Bxh1 would have kept the outcome in doubt.
7.gxh7+!! Sacking the queen. 7...Nxh5 forced. 8. Bg6#
Sorry for the vibration of the board, I'm new to animations I hope it was enjoyable. Again, please feel free to criticise. Is it good this way or should something be changed?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted August 23, 2011 05:29 PM |
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I'd slow it down a bit, but otherwise it's fine 
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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JoonasTo
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 23, 2011 06:18 PM |
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I thought I'd let you guys now that even if I don't post. I follow.
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DON'T BE A NOOB, JOIN A.D.V.E.N.T.U.R.E.
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keldorn
Promising
Known Hero
that casts green flames
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posted August 23, 2011 08:12 PM |
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A quick poll: What do you want me to prepare next?
-A new bunch of puzzles
-A quiz
-An opening coverage
-A game analysis
-An endgame study
-An exercise (not a puzzle) about chess
-Introduction and explanation of something new (a trick or a trap for example)
Well, that's 7 options. Since chess community here consists of less than 7 people, I'd say that everyone has 3 votes. Choose your 3 favourite topics. Note: The order of the topics also count. 1,3,6 is different from 1,6,3.
In the meantime, I'd also like to organise the First Puzzle Composing Competition. Use your imagination to create a position with a tactical trick, and post it here, just like a puzzle. If you need help making the image, send me an HCM. Remember, the deeper your thoughts, the better the chances to win.
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted August 24, 2011 03:26 PM |
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Ah, interesting Noticing positions is extremely difficult... So yeah, that would be something of an interesting section of chess to try to figure out. That kind of an exercise or puzzle would be neat.
1. Those puzzles would be fun again.
2. Introduction to something new - I'd be interested in positional play or moves, if that kind of introduction or anything is possible to do
3. An endgame stydy, just because that is where I make alot of mistakes haha
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"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
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This thread is pages long: 
