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| Thread: Have you ever tried martial arts? Facts and myths about MAs. |  This thread is pages long: 1 ... 4 5 6 7 8 ... 10 20 30 35 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Lexxan
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posted August 06, 2008 09:47 PM |
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What I meant with "Schools" are Academy's where you learn the Code of Samurais (The Bushido, you mentionned it) and how to use Katanas like the Samurai do.
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Adrius
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posted August 06, 2008 09:48 PM |
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Sounds like a tourist trap 
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TheDeath
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posted August 06, 2008 09:49 PM |
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@Death: If someone taught a gorilla how to handle a katana, I'd be scared! 
Gorilla = Viking
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Lexxan
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posted August 06, 2008 09:49 PM |
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Damn NGC, I HATE you 
Now iz okay 
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Coincidence? I think not!!!!
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Adrius
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posted August 06, 2008 09:51 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 22:16, 06 Aug 2008.
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@Death: If someone taught a gorilla how to handle a katana, I'd be scared!
Gorilla = Viking
Well it's still not fair if the gorilla doesn't use weapons. A gorilla with a broadaxe would be even more terrifying...
Man, I've turned this thead unSIRIOUS... Sorry Doomforge...
MonkeyPower
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2008 11:06 PM |
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no spam please, otherwise we'll end at volcanic wastelands.
As for the samurai vs. viking (why viking?) variant.. if the viking used a shield.. you guys badly underestimate shields. A medieval knight would most likely trash the samurai because of the advantage a shield provides, not to mention heavy armor. Dunno about vikings, I know little about them.
But, it's not the ninja/samurai fanboy thread guys, let's go back to martial arts
I'll post a short review of the most popular styles tomorrow. It will be pretty subjective and biased, of course.
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TheDeath
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posted August 06, 2008 11:10 PM |
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you guys badly underestimate shields.
With enough momentum you can crush a shield (unless it's a tower shield but that's too cumbersome). Also, shields are used for deflecting a hit, rather than blocking it. Only novices actually block with it. Given the samurai we're talking about (a master) I don't find it difficult to bypass the shield's deflection.
Also heavy armor might be good, but also slowing the viking down and thus impossible to hit the Samurai.
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2008 11:12 PM |
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you guys badly underestimate shields.
With enough momentum you can crush a shield
Lol
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Also, shields are used for deflecting a hit, rather than blocking it. Only novices actually block with it.
Doesn't change a thing
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Given the samurai we're talking about (a master) I don't find it difficult to bypass the shield's deflection.
Lol again
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Also heavy armor might be good, but also slowing the viking down and thus impossible to hit the Samurai.
... Lol
Do you have to be the "japanese" fanboy, The Death? Kinda tiresome. No, japanese warriors/martial artists weren't gods. They were in many ways inferior to european knights and martial artists. And don't start the katana bias please. Katanas <<< Sabres.
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Adrius
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posted August 06, 2008 11:18 PM |
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As much of the Japanese fanboy I am, I have to agree with Doomforge here
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TheDeath
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posted August 06, 2008 11:21 PM |
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With enough momentum you can crush a shield
Lol
Did I say anything about a samurai or japanese here? This applies to all. If you block with your shield, the opponent will cripple it (not in one hit of course, but he will). This is due to the large momentum acquired in the strike. Again, unless it's a Tower Shield, but that's too heavy and impractical for a 1vs1 fight.
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Doesn't change a thing
You really have to watch some documentaries which show the high weakness of blocking
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Given the samurai we're talking about (a master) I don't find it difficult to bypass the shield's deflection.
Lol again
Who said all Samurais were masters?
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Also heavy armor might be good, but also slowing the viking down and thus impossible to hit the Samurai.
... Lol
Remember that Romans sometimes had problems with "barbarians" precisely because of this...
of course in a BATTLE (war) it has little consequences (infantry are placed all over the place anyway). If you are so sure of yourself, why do you think heavy armor is impracticable for duels? (again, documentaries)
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Do you have to be the "japanese" fanboy, The Death? Kinda tiresome.
Most of my points above weren't even about japanese, I think you exaggerate a bit. Only the samurai one was.
instead of Loling, at least I base it on what I read and watched (documentaries).
From wikipedia:Quote:
In time, some armoured foot knights gave up shields entirely in favour of mobility and two-handed weapons.
But of course, that's why they did it, because shields were too IMBA and finished off enemies too easily. Hard on their conscience.
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2008 11:31 PM |
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Lol
Did I say anything about a samurai or japanese here? This applies to all. If you block with your shield, the opponent will cripple it (not in one hit of course, but he will). This is due to the large momentum acquired in the strike. Again, unless it's a Tower Shield, but that's too heavy and impractical for a 1vs1 fight.
Come on man, be realistic. Do you know how durable a piece of thick metal is? Try to chop it with your precious katana lol. Do you actually think it's easy to "crush" metal? Even heavy european two handers had problems with this. By saying your underweighted samurai with his little katana would do it is kinda laughable, actually.
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Who said all Samurais were masters?
And who said the knight can't be a master shield user, too?
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Remember that Romans sometimes had problems with "barbarians" precisely because of this...
1. don't compare inferior armors to the technically advanced ones of middle ages
2. There was a reason people used armor rather then taking a benefit from "mobility"
3. The Romans had problems with barbarians for many reasons, you can't just say it was because they wore armor. If it was so obvious, they would just take it off.
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of course in a BATTLE (war) it has little consequences (infantry are placed all over the place anyway). If you are so sure of yourself, why do you think heavy armor is impracticable for duels? (again, documentaries)
Use common sense sometime instead of focusing on "documentaries". By the amount of abstract documentaries you bring to discussion, you'd need to spend like half of your life watching them, no offense There were many kinds of armor, some were lighter and more duel-orientated, you don't need to wear the full bulky plate, actually.
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instead of Loling, at least I base it on what I read and watched (documentaries).
No, you pretty much repeat what all fanboys do. 
I can't give you my sources, they are mostly based on forums dedicated to such things, where experienced people and fans gather to discuss such aspects. I've read a 200 page long thread about a hypothetical samurai vs. knight 1v1 fight. There were different opinions, the conclusion I draw personally pretty much convinced me that Knights were in general superior to samurai, skills aside, of course.
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In time, some armoured foot knights gave up shields entirely in favour of mobility and two-handed weapons.
Some. Lol. Matter of personal choice.
Why do you even quote wikipedia? Not the most reliable thing around.
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Asheera
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posted August 06, 2008 11:32 PM |
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And don't start the katana bias please. Katanas <<< Sabres.
Actually, even in a serial about crimes (CSI: New York) it was an episode with a Katana, and the "boss" of the CSI department explained the usefulness of the Katana (it wasn't even a serial/movie about Japanese weapons!), that if used well, it's 10x times deadlier than any other blade because of its shape
And yes, that serial is not "fantasy" like other action movies
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Galev
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Galiv :D
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posted August 06, 2008 11:32 PM |
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Have you ever tried...
Well, at primary shcool I attended Judo training, but it wasn't my world. I don't regret it myelf (my parents do ).
Does mounted archery count? [hope the expression is right; I mean shooting with a bow while riding on a horse] I tried it but very soon discovered I like the two things separated
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Incidence? I think it's cummulative!
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2008 11:35 PM |
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Actually, even in a serial about crimes (CSI: New York) it was an episode with a Katana, and the "boss" of the CSI department explained the usefulness of the Katana (it wasn't even a serial/movie about Japanese weapons!), that if used well, it's 10x times deadlier than any other blade because of its shape
And yes, that serial is not "fantasy" like other action movies
People keep speaking about the katana but in fact the ultimate slashing weapon, based on what experts say (won't quote polish sites obviously) was the polish cavalry sabre used in XX century, due to obvious technological reasons and materials used.) There is absolutely NO physical explanation that katana is 10 times more deadly, a horrible exagerration that makes me think this "document" is as reliable as wikipedia or "world of martial arts" on discovery.
Not all documents tell the truth. ;(
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TheDeath
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posted August 06, 2008 11:44 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:49, 06 Aug 2008.
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Come on man, be realistic. Do you know how durable a piece of thick metal is? Try to chop it with your precious katana lol. Do you actually think it's easy to "crush" metal? Even heavy european two handers had problems with this. By saying your underweighted samurai with his little katana would do it is kinda laughable, actually.
Are you talking about Tower Shields, or this? Because you know, there's a reason Tower Shields aren't used in hand-to-hand combat...
And yes, a shield can be crippled if you don't deflect with it. And I doubt heavy european two-handlers had a "problem" with it.
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And who said the knight can't be a master shield user, too?
Shields are like a secondary weapon. They deflect (parry). Not to block. That is what ALL novices were used to think (and still are).
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Use common sense sometime instead of focusing on "documentaries". By the amount of abstract documentaries you bring to discussion, you'd need to spend like half of your life watching them, no offense There were many kinds of armor, some were lighter and more duel-orientated, you don't need to wear the full bulky plate, actually.
Just 2-3 documentaries are enough. And the one with shields and armor wasn't even about martial arts, if you think it was "fake".
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I can't give you my sources, they are mostly based on forums dedicated to such things, where experienced people and fans gather to discuss such aspects. I've read a 200 page long thread about a hypothetical samurai vs. knight 1v1 fight. There were different opinions, the conclusion I draw personally pretty much convinced me that Knights were in general superior to samurai, skills aside, of course.
I know you'll not believe me, but here's how it goes:
Large shields were used only for arrows/missiles.
Small shields (such as the Buckler above) were used in hand-to-hand, and it had a reason for that. Also, small shields were used for deflecting attacks. Trying to block them would result in a cripple quite fast.
Actually from that, it was addressing exactly this "fact": people tend to think shields are used for blocking (in melee fights) rather than deflecting. And it actually even "proved" that it's a complete noobish thing and myth.
If I think anything else beside wikipedia I'll post, but I don't have time to search right now.
And you know why Heavy armor was good in war? Because there are already too many soldiers, it doesn't matter if the enemy "dodges" your strike that much, you'll most certainly hit someone. On 1v1 fights, heavy armor only slows you down.
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Why do you even quote wikipedia? Not the most reliable thing around.
Because I can't find something else and I most certainly don't remember the name of those documentaries (watched them like, 4 years ago? )
just for the record, I wasn't even talking about Japanese in the above (when talking about shields, etc).
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There is absolutely NO physical explanation that katana is 10 times more deadly, a horrible exagerration that makes me think this "document" is as reliable as wikipedia or "world of martial arts" on discovery.
I know this isn't directed at me, but:
That was talking about the shape (and obviously modern Katanas, you don't have Crime Scene Investigators in Middle Ages, do you?) -- if that Polish sword used "special" materials, a Katana can too. That's why it was about the 'shape' -- that's what defines a sword, not materials used. As for physical explanation, that serial has a lot of "explanations" (and in a newspaper, it said that it helps criminals avoid the police).
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Doomforge
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posted August 06, 2008 11:54 PM |
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Because you know, there's a reason Tower Shields aren't used in hand-to-hand combat...
I don't know why do you keep talking about shield types. If you think you can cut a thick metal with a sword, try it. I tried myself. Felt completely impossible. I know I don't have the strength and technique, but it left only a slight mark on the shield (wasn't technically a shield, but a piece of metal) and I used a two-hander replique. It was quite sharp.
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Shields are like a secondary weapon. They deflect (parry). Not to block. That is what ALL novices were used to think (and still are).
Look, it doesn't matter what is the correct shield usage - the fact is that it gives advantage in hth combat. Especially when you don't use full plate armor.
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And you know why Heavy armor was good in war? Because there are already too many soldiers, it doesn't matter if the enemy "dodges" your strike that much, you'll most certainly hit someone. On 1v1 fights, heavy armor only slows you down.
Again, do you think it's so easy to pierce armor with a sword? No it's not.
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just for the record, I wasn't even talking about Japanese in the above (when talking about shields, etc).
I mentioned it because I noticed you keep telling us how superior the Japanese MAs, samurais, etc are. I can understand that, there is a lot of japanese hype out there. But I won't agree with it.
Also, I don't agree on the katanas. Their shape does NOT give hilarious 10 x advantage. It's against the physical laws lol. How come it can deliver 10 times the kinetic energy other weapons do? It would make it better than bullets
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Adrius
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posted August 07, 2008 12:00 AM |
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Edited by Adrius at 00:01, 07 Aug 2008.
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Again, do you think it's so easy to pierce armor with a sword? No it's not.
Exactly, that's why it's better to have a lot of muscle strength, even if the blow doesn't pierce the armor it'll hurt like hell and probably break your ribs or something
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Asheera
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posted August 07, 2008 12:01 AM |
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That 10x was an exaggeration on my part (still, it is around double as effective)
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Doomforge
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posted August 07, 2008 12:03 AM |
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Again, do you think it's so easy to pierce armor with a sword? No it's not.
That's why it's better to have a lot of muscle strength, even if the blow doesn't pierce the armor it'll hurt like hell and probably break your ribs or something
ofc a lot of deaths resulted from internal injuries, but that was more easy with a heavy two hander, axe, whatever. Katana was never meant to be effective against heavy armor because there was no reason for it to be. Unless we use a modern one made of super technologically advanced material, but why should we? We can also assume the armor is updated to power armor, too 
guys, really, enough of this katana samurai talk. Let's go back to MAs. Expect a little art tomo. Good night
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TheDeath
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posted August 07, 2008 12:09 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 00:32, 07 Aug 2008.
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I don't know why do you keep talking about shield types. If you think you can cut a thick metal with a sword, try it. I tried myself. Felt completely impossible. I know I don't have the strength and technique, but it left only a slight mark on the shield (wasn't technically a shield, but a piece of metal) and I used a two-hander replique. It was quite sharp.
Cut it? You technically cripple it. And I hope you do use momentum for that (that means, hit it hard and FAST), right?
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Look, it doesn't matter what is the correct shield usage - the fact is that it gives advantage in hth combat. Especially when you don't use full plate armor.
The advantage of a shield is good, but a secondary weapon can be just as good. Technically with martial arts you don't even need a secondary weapon (you'll be fast anyway), but with two it becomes even more dangerous.
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Again, do you think it's so easy to pierce armor with a sword? No it's not.
If you hit your opponent hard, you'll move him back, disorient him, etc... Until you cripple a part of it. But of course, you have to hit him hard (which I suppose isn't a problem in a fight).
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Also, I don't agree on the katanas. Their shape does NOT give hilarious 10 x advantage. It's against the physical laws lol. How come it can deliver 10 times the kinetic energy other weapons do? It would make it better than bullets
kinetic energy? It's 10 times more deadly. That means, with the right techniques, you can practically sweep with it in one direction, have it deflected, then instantaneously (assuming your opponent doesn't have another weapon or shield) move it the other way, slash him to pieces... Or something like that (that's how they explained it, I'm no master).
Kinetic energy itself is not 10 times greater (probably not even greater), but it can be effective with the right techniques. For example (hypothetical of course) a sword that allows you to hit 10 times faster (repeatedly obviously!) is technically 10 times deadlier.
Of course the katana is not 10 times deadlier, it was an exaggeration, but you get the point.
EDIT: also you do realize that enemies of Samurai at that time (Chinese and Mongols for example) had armor as well?
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