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| Thread: Where is the world going? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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gabislayer
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
suffering
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posted February 20, 2009 10:04 AM |
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There are a lot of people who are highly ambitious, but only a small minority who are actually selfish.
Oh really ?? ... Tell you what ... the next time you get your paycheck (in case you are working of course) ... give it all away to a charity fond, or to some begger on the streets. You will ask me then .... "WHY should I ?? It's my work !! I have to live damn it !!!" ... Case closed !
"The Selfish Gene" - Richard Dawkins ... more logical answers in there.
Everybody is selfish, more or less, when you get down to the basics, each individual wants to survive and reproduce, so he can perpetuate his own genes.
Yes, in the world there are people less selfish who want to help the others, which is great of course but ... to say that those who are selfish are a minority ... excuse me, but you probably don't realize the nature of this world and it's realities.
If people wouldn't have been selfish, they would have been united, they would have thought as a WHOLE, but the ones that want to control and exploit us don't want that, instead they want us DIVIDED, yes, DIVIDE AND CONQUER, works great, how can you divide a large group of people ? .... I'll tell you how ... greed and selfishness ... each one thinks only to himself and doesn't care about the others, and so ... we are divided !!. It's simple and logic.
I don't like it but it's a reality ! That's why we have sayings like ... "Life is short", "Live hard", "Live the moment", "Life is hard, DEAL WITH IT!!" ... we don't have sayings like "Care for one another", "Try and live in peace and understanding", "Accept one another" ... no ... and don't get me wrong, there were people who've tried to change us and make us understand those things ... Ghandi for example ...
How did we react ... we shot the bastard ... Like George Carlin used to say ... "Apparently we weren't ready for that crap !" ... in an ironical way of course.
We are divided, either by the color of the skin, religion, social classes, sex, 'long haired short haired', cultural variety (which is often badly understood) and the list can go on ...
So you see ... in the end, everybody is pretty much a selfish person, because that's how the system want's you to be, that's how society works now !
Again, I don't like it but I alone can't change anything.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted February 20, 2009 01:19 PM |
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the next time you get your paycheck (in case you are working of course) ... give it all away to a charity fond, or to some begger on the streets.
Thanks, I'm glad to see you agree with me. I understand that you oversimplified it to make a point of reinforcing what I said. But basically, yes, this is how it works, only on a larger scale. The people who receive paychecks donate a sizable portion of the check to a charity fund (taxes) which is distributed to feed the poor, house them, clothe them, educate them, provide medical care for them, etc. The large majority of people don't have any problem with this as long as the funds are not wasted. So thanks again for pointing out how unselfish most people are.
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gabislayer
Bad-mannered
Hired Hero
suffering
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posted February 20, 2009 01:46 PM |
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the next time you get your paycheck (in case you are working of course) ... give it all away to a charity fond, or to some begger on the streets.
Thanks, I'm glad to see you agree with me. I understand that you oversimplified it to make a point of reinforcing what I said. But basically, yes, this is how it works, only on a larger scale. The people who receive paychecks donate a sizable portion of the check to a charity fund (taxes) which is distributed to feed the poor, house them, clothe them, educate them, provide medical care for them, etc. The large majority of people don't have any problem with this as long as the funds are not wasted. So thanks again for pointing out how unselfish most people are.
I think you should REread my post ... or, if naivety suits you ...
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 20, 2009 03:29 PM |
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Bak:
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If you're doing everything from self-interest and think that selfishness is a virtue, why would we all have to act like that?
You don't. All I'm asking is that you don't point at the ones who do and accuse them of being what's wrong wit the world.
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Tell that to Giordano Bruno, Socrates, Jesus, Leonidas, Modigliani, Heraclitus, Jean of Arc and others.
These weren't motivated by self-interest? Giordano Bruno, Socrates, Jesus, and Heraclitus wanted to spread or develop their philosophy. I understand that impulse. Leonidas was a king - do you think he'd remain one if the Persians took over? Modigliani was hardly a great man - just one artist out of many equally bad ones. And Jean of Arc was insane.
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Yes, some of them earned money, but most of them did it simply for a living - they earned money to continue their existence; not exist to earn money.
There are more ways to pursue one's self-interest than to earn money.
Shares:
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When cars started to be made it wass almost only electric driven cars.
???
And racism wasn't caused by selfish people, it was caused by stupid irrational people.
gabislayer:
Everyone is selfish to some degree, you are correct, but I vehemently disagree with you. It's not evil to be selfish - quite the opposite.
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Eccentric Opinion
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted February 20, 2009 04:58 PM |
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Modigliani was hardly a great man - just one artist out of many equally bad ones.
I'll sidestep the debate about his value as a human being but Modigliani is not viewed "equally bad" among most artists and collectors else why would someone:
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Among works entered by other sellers, the most expensive proved to be Modigliani’s 1918 painting “Les deux filles.” One of only five double portraits the artist executed, this unrestored canvas had never appeared at auction before. Three telephone bidders pushed the price up to 6.5 million pounds, against an estimate of 3.5 million pounds to 5 million pounds.
pay 11 million dollars for a painting of his?
@Binabik, I'm curious to know if you own a gun.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 20, 2009 05:17 PM |
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No, I'm saying that the condemnation of self-interest is what's wrong with our world. Creative men who pursue their self-interest should be praised, not cursed.
Drop that stupid Atlas Shrugged already 
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For millennia, people have sailed into the unknown, both literally and figuratively, motivated by nothing but the promise of profit and the fulfillment of their selfish wants. They were the greatest men humanity has to offer. And now they're condemned. Too often such people are equated with the bloodsuckers posing as businessmen - but who are nothing but leeches masquerading as productive enterprises. But the daring creative geniuses and the money-grabbers have very little in common.
you must be joking?
but it doesn't surprise me. Your definition of selfishness covers so many areas that IT'S NOT EVEN WORTH to have it.
Selfishness is not the only thing behind motivation. Whether you have a twisted definition of it ("emotional selfishness" or "emotional benefits" lol), it's not my or our problem (the ones in this thread). Mvass, when you speak with people, you have to speak in their language.
@Binabik: absolutely. However mvass cannot get it. For him EVERYTHING someone does, INCLUDING LOVE ITSELF and SACRIFICE, is an "irrational selfish benefit" (aka emotional benefit). He speaks a completely different language. After all, he knows what people mean with selfishness (the word itself, which has a meaning) but he likes to use his definition.
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 20, 2009 06:52 PM |
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Never mind Mvass. He's just been corrupted by capitalist individualism - it's pretty clear that it leads to selfishness. As for whether selfishness is good or not - there's no question that it's bad. Consider this: people aren't born into an unformed world - they're born into a world built by other people, and so they are indebted when they're born. And their debt only continues to increase. So selfishness is a bad idea.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 20, 2009 08:47 PM |
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Interestingly, though, I have to note that I share Mvass's definition of selfishness and emotional benefits. And yet I still say that selfishness is evil. Even if you're helping others, if you're doing it because you like it, you're being selfish. For example, why does one give to charity? Becuase it helps the poor. Why does one want to help the poor? Because it feels good. Therefore, it's selfish. Isn't "because I like to do it" a really selfish and animalistically primitive reason to do something?
Some people talk of self-sacrifice. They don't know what they're saying. "Give your wealth to the poor!" But if you do, you would probably feel happy - so it's still not as moral as it could be. But if you sacrifice your soul to others - that is true self-sacrifice. If you help others even though you derive no emotional benefits - if you help others despite completely hating it and not getting a benefit of any kind - that is morally ideal.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 20, 2009 08:52 PM |
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Isn't "because I like to do it" a really selfish and animalistically primitive reason to do something?
No, you're confusing that with pleasure.
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 20, 2009 08:54 PM |
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People like pleasure. But that's not exactly what I mean. People like happiness and joy too. But because they like it is why it can't be perfectly moral. People have for too long have been motivated by their self-interest. Morally, they would overthrow that yoke.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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TheDeath
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with serious business
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posted February 20, 2009 09:02 PM |
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First of all, happiness is not "primitive animalistic thing" or whatever -- even if animals do share portions of it, it is directly proportional to the amount of conscious power (obviously animals have consciousness thought not as strong as humans). Second, "feeling good" is an expression used in english that has a lot of definitions. Based on the context we're talking about, I can say it is not about pleasure but about joy or emotions.
By the way Deadman, here's something to ponder about for you: When buddhists meditate, they usually get rid of their 'desires' in that time. Without desire there's no selfishness. But they still feel bliss, which is achieved by lack of desire.
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DeadMan
Known Hero
The True Humanitarian
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posted February 20, 2009 09:03 PM |
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You're missing my point. If you like something, then in doing it you are not being perfectly moral. You are only being perfectly moral when you're doing something that you abhor and it benefits others.
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I don't matter. You don't matter. But we matter.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted February 20, 2009 09:05 PM |
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No, then you're being stupid. What is life, if not the pursuit of happiness or wisdom? (Plato forced me to add the last two words to the previous sentence)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 20, 2009 09:10 PM |
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Even if you're helping others, if you're doing it because you like it, you're being selfish.
That makes no sense, not that the others did. OMG everything I do is selfish 
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted February 20, 2009 09:53 PM |
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Without desire there's no selfishness. But they still feel bliss, which is achieved by lack of desire.
People can still be biased. Desire isn't the only thing that "clouds judgment", as you think about it.
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TheDeath
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Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted February 20, 2009 09:57 PM |
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People can still be biased. Desire isn't the only thing that "clouds judgment", as you think about it.
You mean they are biased?
Sorry mate but if that's the case, it has been scientifically proven with scans of brain
Do I need to provide a link? (might take a while, I haven't saved it, was some time ago).
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That makes no sense, not that the others did. OMG everything I do is selfish
OMG welcome to mvass' thinking and what I must endure in every discussion, and no wonder you call me crazy
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mvassilev
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posted February 21, 2009 12:02 AM |
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Father:
Thanks for the support.
PhoenixReborn:
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pay 11 million dollars for a painting of his?
Because he is generally considered to be a good artist. I don't agree with that consensus, though.
TheDeath:
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Drop that stupid Atlas Shrugged already
Atlas Shrugged is one of the greatest books of all time. And I bet you still haven't read it.
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Mvass, when you speak with people, you have to speak in their language.
"Their language" contains such contradictions as make it useless for me to use it. Selfish = for the self. How much simpler could it be?
As for those diapered mystics, they have a desire to be cleansed, no?
DeadMan:
First, no one asks to be born. Second, the people who are born every day are not in debt to the people who made the world what it is. The people who work have already gotten their payment - from their employers.
And what's so moral about self-sacrifice?
Dagoth:
You're exactly right.
Elvin:
Everything you do is selfish. The more important distinction is the one between short-term irrational self-interest and long-term rational self-interest.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted February 21, 2009 12:13 AM |
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We are talking the same language when you say that being selfish is not a bad thing, in fact I believe that its lack can be harmful to you. However I can by no means agree that things I have done for others even though I'd occasionally rather have not were put of selfishness. Have you never done something that you felt was right even though doing it gives you no pleasure? You could still argue that I do that to satisfy my code of 'honour' but that still feels wrong.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted February 21, 2009 12:19 AM |
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*glares at Father*
Well i pointed that you flamed his point. Besides you slaped so followed up by the next thing in the chain.
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Selfish = for the self. How much simpler could it be?
Selfishness: For the self, for the own person, for the persons "selfish" agendas.
To but it bluntly: Wanting to help other people are not selfish To want to REALLY work or do someting is most likely not selfish. Being the mob leader and hurting others heavly in the process CAN be classified as selfish.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 21, 2009 12:26 AM |
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Elvin:
There are several possible responses to that. The first is that you are so used to doing such actions that you do them automatically - and, in a way, that's selfish too, because you value keeping doing them higher than stopping and thinking about whether they're to your interest. Second, there is that code of honor argument.
del_diablo:
Selfishness can be both helpful and harmful, but here I'm talking about rational self-interest, which is helpful. And don't you agree that people help others "for the self"?
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Eccentric Opinion
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