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ohforfsake
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posted November 16, 2009 01:40 PM |
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If that was his point it does make sense to me, but I also think that at the current times, with the current ressources and technology present, it's not a reasonable request, but for the future, who knows. 
I believe the purpose of education is to be able to gain and use the information that interests you, but on the same time learning how to evaluate said information, so you can make it likely enough (valid) for you to see it as knowledge.
Ultimately it's opressing to hinder information to get forward for the public education no matter how "bad (unikely)" it is, but it's "naive" to believe that we currently have the ressources and technology to actually be able to do so, without people getting "brain washed".
What is important I believe, is to learn how to learn, how weird it may ever sound, and to do so, you must learn in the right way.
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Elodin
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posted November 16, 2009 01:44 PM |
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Quote:
Elodin says: Parents know what's best for their kid and they should be allowed to teach them their values, not Big Brother. Parents have the right to brainwashing their kids as they see fit, the state has no right to it.
A parent teaching his child is not brainwashing. He is teaching.
The State has the tendencey to want more and more power over the citizens and wants to brainwash children into what the State wants so they are more easily controlled.
Unlike the State, parents love their children and try to teach them what they need to know to be successful in life.
Children don't know what they need to learn. It is the job of the PARENTS to parent the children.
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ohforfsake
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posted November 16, 2009 01:54 PM |
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I partly agree Elodin, but I think, so we all can understand eachother, that what does exactly brain washing mean and what does exactly teaching mean? Some general definitions would be nice.
Also, remember, eventhough you love someone, without infinite knowledge, you cannot know, if what you do for them, is always the best thing, many have, in the act of love, done horrible things they thought were for the best of those they love.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 02:42 PM |
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Quote:
I believe the purpose of education is to be able to gain and use the information that interests you, but on the same time learning how to evaluate said information, so you can make it likely enough (valid) for you to see it as knowledge.
Nah. The purpose of public education is to make sure of the continued existance of a specific society. Imagine a feudalistic society with PUBLIC GENERAL school. Obviously everyone of noble descent would be quite satisfied with society, but the overwhelming majority wouldn't. So the purpose of continued existance of society would involve a massive amount of brain-washing (in reality no education at all works better since the uneducated have less options to change something).
When a society reaches a point this side of a certain general fairness the amount of brainwashing in public edication becomes less and less, but won't vanish completely, except in a perfect society (and you know that perfection isn't human). This includes the possibility of evolutionally progressing society, altering its foundations and values. The thing here is simply that people like to live in their society, which makes the continued existance of it something more and more people want and wish for.
HOWEVER: brain-washing as opposed to learning (that is: hammering "truths" into young brains as opposed to teach methods and opinions and the general ability to think for themselves) has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that learning as such is always ruled by necessity, not by lust. Children have to be MADE part of society - they are none from birth; instead they start out as ego-centted beings who want immediate satisfaction of needs and desires.
The art of parental education is to find the best way between making a child understand certain necessities and simply force it to do certain things.
I find these things all pretty obvious and in the nature of things, and frankly I can't understand what's to debate there.
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TheDeath
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posted November 16, 2009 06:30 PM |
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Or do you see any explanation of him on how a society is supposed to define what is "necessary for survivcal in society" and WHY a society should be content to teach only that stuff, leaving the rest to the children?
I already gave that definition, but you're too clouded in "the BS" to see it.
Stuff necessary for survival in society is obvious enough, but let's go further and define it. Is language important for survival? Obviously THE most important in a given society, after all, if you don't know basic signs or how to understand people, and by that I mean people who are supposed to keep the society, like POLICE INVESTIGATIONS or stuff like that, you can't expect to survive can you? If you can't understand the law because you don't know the language, and don't even know your rights, sorry, but that's not survival in society.
Arithmetic is important for basic trading and other calculations (mostly money) of necessary survival like food and clothing.
Anything above these basic is biased and NOT NECESSARY, PERIOD. Sorry JJ but what you're saying is that every society is "right" in what it does. It is where I obviously disagree, and I can't find it hard that many others do.
This is not only BS, it's sheer hypocrisy. You are the exact embodiment of people who like COMPLEX laws and COMPLEX things that can't even be properly defined apart from "what society thinks it's important" which is NULL because there are as many viewpoints as there are people, and certainly if you think all of them are right, there's no point to debate. The reason we see all corruption and "manipulation" of laws and such is because they are BLOODY COMPLEX because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU. No offense but try to be more logical, for simplicity's sake. No one likes complex things.
And no saying "it's a complex matter" is only a way to say "I don't want to analyze and break it up apart into elementary pieces, my brain hurts".
Sometimes I wonder why are you even trying to debate something.
@Elodin: I was talking from the point of view of JJ, but I can see his hypocrisy now. You don't post logical stuff in my opinion, but at least you're not a hypocrite.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 07:15 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Or do you see any explanation of him on how a society is supposed to define what is "necessary for survivcal in society" and WHY a society should be content to teach only that stuff, leaving the rest to the children?
I already gave that definition, but you're too clouded in "the BS" to see it.
For your orientation I highlighted a part that you just don't seem to see.
Come to think of it, I don't believe you see anything at all. You wildly throw around all manner of things, without distinction, without system, without plan, BE right, HAVE a right, method, content, no matter, all the same, all inconsequential, provided something piqued you into another long and winded rant, clouding the issues with bla.
If you call that debating... well.
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TheDeath
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posted November 16, 2009 07:26 PM |
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Because otherwise all societies are equal. Nazi Germany, USSR, Propaganda, all are alright.
Why? FOR FREAKING FREEDOM TO CHOOSE ONE'S OWN LIFE. What century do you live in?
Sorry, I don't have to argue with that. You keep on believing whatever you want to be "fine", I fight for my freedom.
Or rather let me put this differently.
Why? Because you don't want to be classified as advocating a system that allows 'brainwashing'. I really don't, so I can see Elodin's rants, although he's just on the other side (which transfers these powers to the parents). Needless to say I disagree with both.
North Korea must be really "fine" with all the censorship and brainwashing I guess.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 07:55 PM |
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It looks like not only you are just ranting - you don't read others' posts. Pity.
Well, then, rant on.
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TheDeath
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posted November 16, 2009 08:00 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 20:02, 16 Nov 2009.
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If you have nothing whatsoever to add, don't bother posting.
You highlighted a part, I answered the freaking question. Answer mine or don't post about me. But probably that's too much for you to understand.
You are aware that a question needs an answer? Yeah, stuff that begins with "why" is a question, you can find it in my post and then the reply, if you look hard enough.
It's hidden maliciously there especially to annoy you, because that's what I live for. 
EDIT: Also put some thought into your responses will you? Because I know you get the analogies.
I ask you something in the same way: Why should North Korea teach children that it is not a "paradise" and give facts about how the rest of the world works, instead brainwashing them into it? Why?
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mvassilev
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posted November 16, 2009 08:08 PM |
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Because, obviously, believing in Glorious Leader is what their society needs in order to continue to exist.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 08:48 PM |
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Death, why whould I follow your example and endlessly repeat myself? It's not my problem when you are unable to see the difference between method and content. It's the ultimate freedom of every society to choose its way of living. If enough people agree on something they can build a society on it. The question is what method they pick to teach their children and newcomers their values - are they informing or brain-washing them about it.
Now for the right of society to TEACH (not brainwash) their children everything it wants them to.
That's not even worth a discussion. A society quite obviously has the right to inform children about things it deems important - all the more so, since children aren't in a position to judge. For example, if a society thinks that every child should have a basic knowledge about classical music and hear some noteworthy examples, it's the right of society to do so. Note that society isn't forcing the children to worship them - just to KNOW about them. Which is called education.
Death, sometimes I think you don't have a clue what society actually means.
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TheDeath
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posted November 16, 2009 10:46 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 22:48, 16 Nov 2009.
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It's the ultimate freedom of every society to choose its way of living.
Like North Korea.
Quote:
If enough people agree on something they can build a society on it.
Now you're confusing democracy tyranny by majority with society.
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The question is what method they pick to teach their children and newcomers their values - are they informing or brain-washing them about it.
That's what a parent-driven model does, like what Elodin advocates, not the state (which I disagree with both).
A kid should be, like you said, INFORMED about something, not FORCED. Of course you can't choose what you are not aware of (i.e you don't know your CHOICES), that is the thing that has to be informed. When teaching becomes mandatory to even have some rights into society, it is BRAINWASHING. For example, a North Korean must learn the stuff or he is excluded from society and deprived of rights (even killed/jailed), if they are any that is.
That is NOT teaching, teaching doesn't imply "learn this or else!", which is precisely what mandatory lessons do. You know, learn something or get punished (punished is BROAD, not just physical... deprivation of SOME rights is included, even being dropped from school for OTHER subjects than the one you don't participate in, basically any negative effect that shouldn't be there). That's BRAINWASHING, the moment you don't have a choice. What's so hard to get?
Oh and by the way, society exists mostly to protect individual rights. I mean, it's supposed to protect the individual from the majority. That's what freedom is about. Not Tyranny By Majority.
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Death, sometimes I think you don't have a clue what society actually means.
Your post proves much what you know about it. Equating it with democracy tyranny by majority and all that.
And you have a serious problem drawing logical conclusions. If enough people are religious, does that mean religion should be mandatory? Definitely not brainwashing, right?
LOL
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JollyJoker
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posted November 16, 2009 11:07 PM |
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I didn't know your condition was that serious. There is not much of a connection between my post and what you probably will call an answer. I'd suggest you open a thread about North Korea if you are so fixated with that country.
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ohforfsake
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posted November 16, 2009 11:12 PM |
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I think you've a very valid point TD, even in a society ruled by majority, where it's most likely that which is mandatory is for the sake of the person, it's still limiting that person to being forced to do this.
However, I think what could solve this problem, which is what is really lacking, is information about why some stuff (like you say, the ability to understand eachother) is a very good idea to learn.
Also, I still think that you guys are talking about different things, when you're using terms such as brain washing, teaching, society, etc.
Also, if I may, I think it'd be nice, if you stopped talking about what the given person is capable of or not (attacking the person) and in stead of attacks the arguments from the given person, that's at least a good way to make it worthwhile for the rest of us to read your points (which is the sole reason for writing them in the first place, is what I only can imagine).
Finally, this started with, wether or not you should make given subjects available in the public education system, in relationship to how likely it is to be true or necessary (not mentioning that through the brilliant library system it would most likely still be available, unless we're talking about oppresing of todays standards (North Korea, etc.), just not in the public school). Now it has moven on to wether or not mandatory learning equals brain washing.
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TheDeath
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posted November 16, 2009 11:27 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:30, 16 Nov 2009.
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JollyJoker don't you find it funny that it's only you who has a problem with logic?
I mean for goodness' sake man, what the HELL do you understand from THIS:Quote:
If enough people agree on something they can build a society on it.
Really this doesn't have that many interpretations.
Society is not democracy. It's not tyranny by majority. It's not communism. It's not dictatorship. In other words, it's not the SYSTEM used, and it's not a specific form of government. It has NOTHING to do with any of that. You are very one-sided and biased.
Let me have another logical try.
If enough people agree on something -- that some kind of god exists and that children must be sacrificed to prevent his wrath -- they can build a society on that. Is that what you're saying?
Listen to yourself and the logical implications of what you say.
@ohforfsake: "brainwashing" is putting stuff into their "brain" when they have no choice, because there's "or else" which carries a huge negative impact.
Example:
Parent: Obey God or else you go to Hell!
brainwashing
State: Learn x, y and z, or else <insert negative effect>
brainwashing
need any more examples?
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angelito
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posted November 16, 2009 11:53 PM |
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Quote:
Example:
Parent: Obey God or else you go to Hell!
brainwashing
State: Learn x, y and z, or else <insert negative effect>
brainwashing
need any more examples?
I'm not sure you're really aware of the meaning of the word "brainwashing". Brainwashing doesn't have anything to do with "if you not <..>...then <something negative>".
Brainwashing is putting something in someone's head...in a way he thinks it's the only truth/right thing to do. There isn't any threat present normally.
A good example is what Hitler did with the german folks refering to jews.
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TheDeath
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posted November 17, 2009 12:05 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 00:07, 17 Nov 2009.
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Brainwashing is putting something in someone's head...in a way he thinks it's the only truth/right thing to do. There isn't any threat present normally.
Not really.
Even the hell as a "scare tactic" uses that. "Right thing to do" isn't something that everyone seeks to do (because "right" in this sense isn't even defined properly so everyone can understand), which is why you have to come up with a scare tactic in some cases (of course I disagree with that "hell as scare tactic" but you get the point).
What is mandatory teaching if not putting something in someone's head forcefully?
Brainwashing or indoctrination, take your pick, I don't care. You know what I mean.
I mean take an example History: if mandatory you would make people believe whatever it is, which is no different than any other brainwashing. You MIGHT think that it's more true, but the kid is not you, so let him decide for himself if he should take it and if HE thinks it's reliable or not, not you. All brainwashers think that their way is "the true way" and decide for the kids. Mandatory teaching is no exception.
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Elodin
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posted November 17, 2009 03:53 AM |
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Parent: Obey God or else you go to Hell!
brainwashing
It is lunacy to say that a parent teaching a child a religion is brainwashing.
You might as well say teaching a child arithmetic is brainwashing.
Parents teach their children what they believe the child needs to know.
A parent would be a moron if they believed that obedience to God is necessary to go to heaven and yet did not convey that fact to their child. In fact if they did not, they don't love their child.
So are these things brainwashing too?
Study and do your homework or else you fail math class!
Take out the garbage or else the house will stink!
Use deoderant or else you will stink!
Don't hit your sister or else you will be spanked! (I know some Europens erroneously think spanking is child abuse though.)
No, life is full of consequences and parents should teach their children that there are consequences to their actions. That is certainly not brainwashing.
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TheDeath
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posted November 17, 2009 04:03 AM |
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Elodin you don't get my point. My point was to show JollyJoker why, when you argue about who should have the right to teach kids, State-daddy and Parents, he calls yours brainwashing, but chooses the State-daddy approach, which does the same.
I don't want to argue with you about it, I already know your stance on it, and I disagree with it. But he is the one who originally accused you of brainwashing, so he's a hypocrite, because he advocates a similar scenario (but transferring that power from parents to the state).
For instance in the scenario you posted, parent doesn't presents choices to his kid.
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mvassilev
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posted November 17, 2009 04:08 AM |
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Yes, there's going to be some outside influence no matter what path you choose.
But, Death, do you really think kids know enough to be able to choose for themselves?
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