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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 22, 2010 08:31 PM |
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Finally, the one reason I would never consider following buddhism is because it teaches that ridding yourself of all emotions is good (and is the whole point). I miss the time when I was 13-14 and everything felt so fresh, new, powerful. It took me only a few years to realize how much of my feelings I have lost and I miss it dearly. To see a religion teaching me that this is a POSITIVE aspect because I'm becoming more knowledgeful (indeed I am) and less prone to "useless earthly feelings".... I'm sorry, it's horrible. This is completely opposite to what I think makes life worthwile, and I already can relate: Nirvana must be the most horrible state ever
You finally convinced me you're a romantic in the traditional sense.
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 22, 2010 11:02 PM |
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About Buddhism:
While I don't believe in many of the teachings Buddhism, I respect that it is peaceful and teaches that one should persue enlightenment. Certainly having peacful neighbors is a good thing.
I do agree with the teachings that our understanding, thoughts, speech, and actions can lead to greater or lesser suffering in our lives and the lives of others.
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No, he's not a material being, he's a being who is an external force, independent of space and time, eternal, ever loving, all seeing and all powerful... sound like a familiar argument?
Your knowledge of biology is pitable. A monkey is none of those things.
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Also, if you mean created being, as in they came into this reality throught the miracle of conception, then A) yeah, you would be right, but they are still divine beings, and B) you are also stating than jesus, by the face he was not independent of time and space, had rather limited knowledge and intelligence.
Jesus is the human manifestation of God. God existing as a [now glorified] man. God has always existed as the ever-present Spirit. In order to die for man he began to exist as the man Jesus.
Zeus and friends were supposedly created beings and were not manifestations of a divine spirit. The Greek gods were portrayed as corporal beings and could be slain. The Spirit of God is not material and can't be slain.
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also, Atheism make no such claim. I suppose the closest thing they say is "We don't know, but appearing out of nowhere is just as possible as god." Science doesn't know what created the universe, so how can Atheists be going against science? You are commiting a logical falacy, the strawman argument, saying that atheists have this position on life, when really, they don't.
Sorry, but materialistic atheism must reject scientific facts to say the univerese produced itself out of absolute nothing for no reason. Just as they were wrong in tha past when they claimed the universe is eternal.
[qutoe]westborough baptist church
crusades and inquistion have been done to death, there's a more recent example of christian bigotry and ignorance.
Sorry, but the Bible says they are not Christians. No one who hates or murders is a Christian. Oh, and the first crusades were to counter Muslims invading nations that were primarily Christian.
On the other hand, the biggest mass murderers in all of recorded history have been atheists. Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, ect.
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fair enough.
you do watch glenn beck, are a pentacostal christain and hate the left, so maybe what I said was an exaggeration.
None of those things is associated with anything I responded to. And I don't hate the left. I hate leftism. The delusional ideologies of the left.
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Actually, schools in, well, the soviet union at least, where not uniform in teaching religion. some did, some didn't. and whilst there is a clear corralation between proximity to a city and density of religious, the government didn't indoctrinate pupils into believing that religion was bad. the only indoctrination was love of stalin and glorification of russian workers.
Actually, they taught students to ridicule religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
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The Soviet Union promoted atheism. The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion.[citation needed] Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed.
Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[12][13][14][15] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind controlexperimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions (see Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union).[13][14][16][17]
Practicing Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press. Atheism was propagated through schools, communist organizations, and the media. Organizations such as the Society of the Godless were created.
Atheist persecution of Christians in the USSR
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we are a socially influencial species. no matter how much you claim you are a free thinker, if you are not indoctrinated to some extent by the examples, then you end up socially retarded. You're obviously not, and thus, you cannot reject all forms of indoctrinations, otherwise you'll end up as a backward hermit. and even then, you would have still be indoctrinated by what you're parents teach you
Receiving information from someone is not indoctrination.
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http://creationwiki.org/Kent_Hovind unless you're wanting a place on "have I got news for you."
Your link does not work.
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God won't like it if you pray for the enemy.
I wish you had a clue about what you were talking about before you started pounding on your keyboard about what God would or would not like, supposedly based on the Bible.
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Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
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Once again, more false statmeents. I have referenced the laws of thermodynamics, the principle of causation, the observations of the Hubble telescope and COBE sattelite. Your only argument has been maybe a monkey created the universe.
no, you're argument rests on the total belief that the bible's word is the truth, and have used the others to simply accent you're arguements with scientific information.
Sorry, but the Bible makes no mention of the COBE sattelite nor of Hubble or the laws of thermodynamics.
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Sorry, you made false claims. I proved that the Bible says no man knows when Christ will return. I can't help what some cult said. I quoted the Bible. Once again, you are in error.
please quote the passage... and, just for good measure, the passage before and after, just to show you're not fibbing, yourself.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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and thus, Genocide is completely excusable? Alot of people died then, from both the camps, both attacks, and so on.
The people driving the aggressors from their land is not genocide.
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What I am trying to impress on you is that there is no such thing as absolute morality. the world is not black and white when it comes to life. It might be easily digestable, but that is not the case.
Sorry, but you can never convince me that the rape of a baby is not always immoral. Absolute morality exists.
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Revelation
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 22, 2010 11:08 PM |
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A monkey is none of those things.
Willis the monkey is not any ordinary monkey. He stands above science, just like God, because no trials can be performed on either.
Edit: It is because he's fictionous, a spark of imagination. However all we imagine might actually be true, it might not, heck one can just challenge the assumption of memory to be true and derive that everything is possible, because we can't be 100% certain for any moment different from the current and we can't be certain about anything except that we're observing in the current moment.
Though that might be possible, it seems irrelevant to dwell on further, as these possibilities cannot be counted and so the probability cannot be set.
That's why, it is in my opinion, not a very important matter if God exists or not.
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Living time backwards
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 23, 2010 12:10 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 12:53, 23 Mar 2010.
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No, he's not a material being, he's a being who is an external force, independent of space and time, eternal, ever loving, all seeing and all powerful... sound like a familiar argument?
Your knowledge of biology is pitable. A monkey is none of those things.
Ohforsnake said it better than I ever could. You don't have a sense of irony.
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Also, if you mean created being, as in they came into this reality throught the miracle of conception, then A) yeah, you would be right, but they are still divine beings, and B) you are also stating than jesus, by the face he was not independent of time and space, had rather limited knowledge and intelligence.
Jesus is the human manifestation of God. God existing as a [now glorified] man. God has always existed as the ever-present Spirit. In order to die for man he began to exist as the man Jesus.
Zeus and friends were supposedly created beings and were not manifestations of a divine spirit. The Greek gods were portrayed as corporal beings and could be slain. The Spirit of God is not material and can't be slain.
no, that's only according the much celebrated snowisation "God of war", the greek gods were immune to harm, even from each other.
also, if you are refering to Zues and "Friends" as created beings, then my understanding is that they were created through birth... like jesus was.
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also, Atheism make no such claim. I suppose the closest thing they say is "We don't know, but appearing out of nowhere is just as possible as god." Science doesn't know what created the universe, so how can Atheists be going against science? You are commiting a logical falacy, the strawman argument, saying that atheists have this position on life, when really, they don't.
Sorry, but materialistic atheism must reject scientific facts to say the univerese produced itself out of absolute nothing for no reason. Just as they were wrong in tha past when they claimed the universe is eternal.
Oh, so we've gone from Atheism in general to materialistic atheism.
and again, you are offering strawmen agruments. No atheists say that the universe is eternal. At best they say "we just don't know." life has alot of unknowns, and so simply say that they reject science is ridiculous as science doesn't know.
and how can atheists reject science when 90% of scientists are atheists?
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westborough baptist church
crusades and inquistion have been done to death, there's a more recent example of christian bigotry and ignorance.
Sorry, but the Bible says they are not Christians. No one who hates or murders is a Christian. Oh, and the first crusades were to counter Muslims invading nations that were primarily Christian.
On the other hand, the biggest mass murderers in all of recorded history have been atheists. Mao, Pol Pot, Lenin, Stalin, ect.
Ok, Elodin
Go up to the westborough baptist church and say "You're not christian!" By the same Text, They could claim through some interpretation of a verse that you aren't either. before they shove one of their signs up you're rectum.
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fair enough.
you do watch glenn beck, are a pentacostal christain and hate the left, so maybe what I said was an exaggeration.
None of those things is associated with anything I responded to. And I don't hate the left. I hate leftism. The delusional ideologies of the left.
they do:
you're a christian, otherwise... why would you defend the bible?!
also, hating the ideologies of the left is a bit like saying "I don't hate gays, I just hate the ideology of gays"
you also watch a rather unstable man who is "not a journalist," and says that "anyone who takes him seriously is an idiot." (-Glenn beck, new york times, june 16 2009 and also, Glenn beck, new york times, march 29 2009)
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Actually, schools in, well, the soviet union at least, where not uniform in teaching religion. some did, some didn't. and whilst there is a clear corralation between proximity to a city and density of religious, the government didn't indoctrinate pupils into believing that religion was bad. the only indoctrination was love of stalin and glorification of russian workers.
Actually, they taught students to ridicule religion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Soviet_Union
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The Soviet Union promoted atheism. The Soviet Union was the first state to have as an ideological objective the elimination of religion.[citation needed] Toward that end, the Communist regime confiscated church property, ridiculed religion, harassed believers, and propagated atheism in the schools. Actions toward particular religions, however, were determined by State interests, and most organized religions were never outlawed.
Some actions against Orthodox priests and believers along with execution included torture, being sent to prison camps, labour camps or mental hospitals.[12][13][14][15] Many Orthodox (along with peoples of other faiths) were also subjected to psychological punishment or torture and mind controlexperimentation in order to force them give up their religious convictions (see Punitive psychiatry in the Soviet Union).[13][14][16][17]
Practicing Orthodox Christians were restricted from prominent careers and membership in communist organizations (the party, the Komsomol). Anti-religious propaganda was openly sponsored and encouraged by the government, which the Church was not given an opportunity to publicly respond to. Seminaries were closed down, and the church was restricted from using the press. Atheism was propagated through schools, communist organizations, and the media. Organizations such as the Society of the Godless were created.
Atheist persecution of Christians in the USSR
I can't fault you there. You've done you're research, well done! I admit I was wrong on that point.
However, none of this did much damage, as by 1952, more than 50% of ussr citizens were christian. surely you should be holding that up as a testament to your faith?
Also, this was mainly focused in the cities. the countryside received very little attention in terms of scrutiny of religion.
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we are a socially influencial species. no matter how much you claim you are a free thinker, if you are not indoctrinated to some extent by the examples, then you end up socially retarded. You're obviously not, and thus, you cannot reject all forms of indoctrinations, otherwise you'll end up as a backward hermit. and even then, you would have still be indoctrinated by what you're parents teach you
Receiving information from someone is not indoctrination.
we go to schools, we go to work, we go to churches, we watch tv.
those are all forms of indoctrination, as you are being indoctrinated into a group, you are becoming one with that group, and receiving information relating to that group, and rarely, anything else. I have not been into one school where they bring a guest speaker who was a drop-out, or a christian mass where they brought a rabbi in to balance it out.
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God won't like it if you pray for the enemy.
I wish you had a clue about what you were talking about before you started pounding on your keyboard about what God would or would not like, supposedly based on the Bible.
and I wish you have a clue about what you were talking about before you started pounding at your keyboard about what atheism is or is not, or what I am or am not.
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Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
God is simply saying "does anyone object to me, the almighty god, doing this? nope? ok then!" it wasn't a promotion of standing against him or having sympathy for the enemy, it was simply one calling someone out so that he could flex his muscles.
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Once again, more false statmeents. I have referenced the laws of thermodynamics, the principle of causation, the observations of the Hubble telescope and COBE sattelite. Your only argument has been maybe a monkey created the universe.
no, you're argument rests on the total belief that the bible's word is the truth, and have used the others to simply accent you're arguements with scientific information.
Sorry, but the Bible makes no mention of the COBE sattelite nor of Hubble or the laws of thermodynamics.
NO, that's not what I'm getting at!!!!!
you're argument is "The bible is true!" simple as that! you then back it up with scientific evidence. You do not, as scientists would do, look at the evidence and say "So what does this say?"
it doesn't matter if the bible mentions about the stuff you're using, if it fits the bible, you'll use it! in fact, you're proving yourself wrong, because the bible doesn't say anything about those creations, thus the bible is proven wrong!
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Sorry, you made false claims. I proved that the Bible says no man knows when Christ will return. I can't help what some cult said. I quoted the Bible. Once again, you are in error.
please quote the passage... and, just for good measure, the passage before and after, just to show you're not fibbing, yourself.
Mat 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mat 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
fair enough.
and thus, explain to me, how could they get it so wrong?
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and thus, Genocide is completely excusable? Alot of people died then, from both the camps, both attacks, and so on.
The people driving the aggressors from their land is not genocide.
tell that to the toutseis... oh wait, you can't, they've all been killed.
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What I am trying to impress on you is that there is no such thing as absolute morality. the world is not black and white when it comes to life. It might be easily digestable, but that is not the case.
Sorry, but you can never convince me that the rape of a baby is not always immoral. Absolute morality exists.
Oh for goodness sake!
could you get away with you're fascination about raping children? I wonder sometimes about, you Elodin.
absolute morality only exists in the mind of psychotics. "I'm good, people who follow me a good, everyone else is evil!" the world is full of gray areas.
as I have said before. I am going to offer you a choice.
A man finds that his neighbour is a terrorist, and with the help of his ex-wife, is planning to bomb a bus full of innocent people. the man goes over there and kills his neighbour, his neighbours wife, who is totaly innocent, and his ex-wife. when the young boy sees, he kills the child to as not to spread the word.
who is the moral one then?
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 23, 2010 10:54 AM |
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Elodin,
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Still, the theory that singularity wasn't caused is consistent. It isn't consistent with my requirements only.
I hardly see how an uncaused singularity is consistent with science. It is a material effect and needs a cause. You can't just go from a steady state of absolute nothingness to the universe without something acting on the nothingness. But nothing natural existed.
It's not a material effect. It's the initial state. It's perfectly consistent with science.
It's a standard situation in math that a problem has initial state and equations that define its further development.
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Obedience was the only reason to follow that rule for Eve. She didn't follow and was punished.
No, as far as she knew the only reason was obedience. That does not mean there was not a furthur reason.
As far as a child knows the only reason not to tough a hot pan on the stove is because Mommy says so. But when the toddler grabs the pot handle and a pot of boiling water comes pouring down on his head he finds out otherwise.
A good mother will likely tell why taking a hot pan is wrong. The perfect mother certainly will. The hot pan example isn't quite correct, because mother doesn't punish the child with hot water from the pan, while banishment from Eden was a punishment by God.
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On what basis do you decide how long it is appropriate for someone to be in hell?
On the basis of someone's deeds. God may also judge on the basis of someone's intension, but judgment will never be just if the choice is made between 2 extremes - Hell and Heaven.
BTW, what I can certainly decide better than God is how long it is appropriate for ME to be in hell.
Oh, so you have the right to judge someone on the basis of their deeds and you know the appropriate punishment but the eternal all seeing, all knowing God does not? Wooooooow, aren't you the cat's meow! 
Nope, I don't have a possibility nor intension to do that and I never suggested such a thing. It was merely an answer to your question. There are two important points after it.
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What is the just judgment? I'm trying to compare my sense of justice and that of Christian God.
And evidently God thinks sin is more serious that you do. Of course you and your limited knowledge are correct and the all-knowing God is incorrect.
It's me compared to God the Bible character.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 23, 2010 10:56 AM |
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Anyone has seen the movie "The Name of the rose" with Sean Connery as main actor?
This old blind "big boss" of the clerics in that abbey reminds me of someone specific here on board.
I won't tell any names 
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted March 23, 2010 11:09 AM |
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A good mother will likely tell why taking a hot pan is wrong.
Exactly. It makes no sense to just say no, and still expects people to be responsible for their own action.
A good mother would, in my opinion, tell its not smart to touch the hot pan because it's very warm, to a degree that not only can give a lot of pain, but also future scars. Then to learn the child that one should not believe without testing, letting the child find put the hand close, and feel the warm aura around, closer and it quickly gets warmer, to make it likely the statement is true.
Then maybe help the child to make and understand the mechanisms of having devices that can measure the temperature, checking if it works on lesser warm materials, as one would expect, and then see how arm the pan really is.
I have no doubt that after that, a child would find it completely logical to not touch the hot pan.
Though for most people, it is really just enough to be told that it's very warm and will hurt a lot.
Edit: The only places where it makes sense to not having to explain yourself, if it is something time dependent to a degree that if you explain yourself, you'll be in some kind of trouble, because the time it takes.
That can however hardly be the way it is here.
____________
Living time backwards
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 23, 2010 11:44 AM |
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Umm, the example is all wrong.
What father does is this:
"Children, see that basket with apples there? Those are not for you! Keep your hands off of them. If you take one, you'll get punished."
I don't think, THAT is wrong. It's a simple command, and since there are enough apples to eat there, the command is no problem.
But that's only half of the story. The other half is, that father tolerates a pretty evil guy in his house, whom he knows will try and corrupt his children.
He did NOT warn them about that evil guy - and note that the house is an extremely peaceful place: the children are friendly with all the inhabitants of the house, even lions. So the children were not prepared for the situation and for the fact THAT THEY MIGHT BE LIED TO!
Which means, father's education missed a couple of important points.
If you argue now, the test was TO OBEY, NO MATTER WHAT, because god is god and is always right and to be obeyed, no matter who says what, the question is why god needs to make such a petty test. After all, there was no one there to corrupt EXCEPT the serpent, and god had the option to a) simply ban it from paradise, keeping evil out or b) at least warn HIS CHILDREN, that there IS evil and lies and whatnot and the serpent is not to be trusted.
That is, if that all is to be taken at face value.
Face value makes no sense, however. It makes more sense to see it metaphorical: Humans lived in blissful ignorance of something, until a certain event, when paradise was lost.
The interpretation coming to mind immediately is, that humans lived in paradise as long as they were animals themselves: living for the moment, not worrying about future or past, just savoring the good things and simply accepting the bad ones, doing the things their instincts telling them to do.
Things changed, though, when they "ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil" (Genesis 2:17), which means that they got the ability to reflect their doing and learned to rate their doings morally. Which is, when they lost paradise, because they got in trouble, morally: what is right and what is wrong?
That way to look at things - humans gaining an ability, making tzem different from all the animals, but losing something else for it as well - makes a lot of sense: it's an explanation of how humans became what they are, told as a colorful fairy tale.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted March 23, 2010 01:08 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:08, 23 Mar 2010.
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*yawns*
So...
You guys reached a conclusion yet?
About anything?
Anyone?
...
I see.
Happy 50th page to you all
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted March 23, 2010 03:28 PM |
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People interested in this topic may want to watch this television program this evening.
Nightline Face-Off
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted March 23, 2010 05:33 PM |
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Edited by Daystar at 17:38, 23 Mar 2010.
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*agrees with Baklava*
Although actually I'm curious, the whole "I have recieved the Spirit of the Lord" thing, how did that work? Like, what was the experience involved?
*is actually curious*
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 25, 2010 03:04 AM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 03:04, 25 Mar 2010.
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DagothGares
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
No gods or kings
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posted March 25, 2010 07:28 AM |
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Anyone has seen the movie "The Name of the rose" with Sean Connery as main actor?
This old blind "big boss" of the clerics in that abbey reminds me of someone specific here on board.
I won't tell any names
The guy that made thi very big point of the theory that Jesus never laughed?
____________
If you have any more questions, go to Dagoth Cares.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 25, 2010 11:24 AM |
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Exactly.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted March 25, 2010 11:10 PM |
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also, hating the ideologies of the left is a bit like saying "I don't hate gays, I just hate the ideology of gays"
you also watch a rather unstable man who is "not a journalist," and says that "anyone who takes him seriously is an idiot." (-Glenn beck, new york times, june 16 2009 and also, Glenn beck, new york times, march 29 2009)
Idiots are the leftists who lie about what Glenn Beck says. The loony-tunes leftists like to hide in shadow and lie about who they are and Beck has exposed them.
Oh, you evidently have been chained in your parents' basement all your life or have been a hermit hidden away somwhere. It is obvious you have never had any sort of relationship with anyone if you think you can't disapprove of someone's actions while still loving the person who commits such action.
When you are ready for an adult relationship you will be able to love someone while disapproving of their actions. Don't dispair though, people can always grow.
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However, none of this did much damage, as by 1952, more than 50% of ussr citizens were christian. surely you should be holding that up as a testament to your faith?
So the murders and stolen property were not damage? YES, of course, no matter how many times Christians have been murdered, atheismts still hav not been able to stamp out Christianity.
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we go to schools, we go to work, we go to churches, we watch tv.
those are all forms of indoctrination,
Again, that is just crazy talk. Receiving information is not the same as being indoctrinated.
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I have not been into one school where they bring a guest speaker who was a drop-out, or a christian mass where they brought a rabbi in to balance it out.
Yes, well, it would be idiotic to bring a person of a different religion in to preach in a Christiann church. However, at times Christians and followers of other religions do get together to talk about things.
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I wish you had a clue about what you were talking about before you started pounding on your keyboard about what God would or would not like, supposedly based on the Bible.
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Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
God is simply saying "does anyone object to me, the almighty god, doing this? nope? ok then!" it wasn't a promotion of standing against him or having sympathy for the enemy, it was simply one calling someone out so that he could flex his muscles.
Sorry, you evidently have poor reading comprehsnsino skills. All through the Bible God calls on his people to be intercessors. To pray on behalf of others for their welfare.
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you're argument is "The bible is true!" simple as that! you then back it up with scientific evidence. You do not, as scientists would do, look at the evidence and say "So what does this say?"
I can only conclude that you are deliberately lying since I have addressed this a number of times.
I have referenced the laws of thermodynamics, the principle of causality, the observations of the COBE sattelite and Hubble telescope and various other things not found in the Bible.
When you find yourself capable of a mature adult rational honest discussion let me know.
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could you get away with you're fascination about raping children? I wonder sometimes about, you Elodin.
absolute morality only exists in the mind of psychotics
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Well, you refusing to say that raping babies is absolutely wrong certainly makes me wonder about you.
I will continue my "facination" of defending the right of children to live and not to be raped.
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A man finds that his neighbour is a terrorist, and with the help of his ex-wife, is planning to bomb a bus full of innocent people. the man goes over there and kills his neighbour, his neighbours wife, who is totaly innocent, and his ex-wife. when the young boy sees, he kills the child to as not to spread the word.
Neither the terrorist nor the man who killed him are moral. The man who killed the terrorist also deliberately killed innocent people.
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It's not a material effect. It's the initial state. It's perfectly consistent with science.
Sorry, a singularity is not an initial state. No atheist can answer the question I have posed. Even the atheist "gurus" like Dawkins and Hitchens must plead ignorance. And until you can explain how the universe came to be from absolute nothing with no cause atheism must be considered irrational and in opposition to known science.
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A good mother will likely tell why taking a hot pan is wrong. The perfect mother certainly will. The hot pan example isn't quite correct, because mother doesn't punish the child with hot water from the pan, while banishment from Eden was a punishment by God.
When speaking to toddleers it is impossible to go into detailed discussion. The parent will something like "Don't touch. Hot. The pan will burn Baby."
When the toddler grabs the pot handle it is not the mother punishing the baby with boiling water falling on the baby's head. The water falling is a result of the actions of the forbidden actions of the toddler.
God said "Don't eat of the fruit of that tree or you will surely die." God gave a command and a reason.
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I have no doubt that after that, a child would find it completely logical to not touch the hot pan.
Obviously you are not a parent and have not been around toddlers.
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I don't think, THAT is wrong. It's a simple command, and since there are enough apples to eat there, the command is no problem.
But that's only half of the story. The other half is, that father tolerates a pretty evil guy in his house, whom he knows will try and corrupt his children.
He did NOT warn them about that evil guy - and note that the house is an extremely peaceful place: the children are friendly with all the inhabitants of the house, even lions. So the children were not prepared for the situation and for the fact THAT THEY MIGHT BE LIED TO!
Adam was created as a full grown man. He was given dominion over everthing on earth. He had dominion over the snake. Instead of exercising his dominion he submitted to the will of the snake (Satan.)
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
The fact that God used the word subdue indicates that God warned man about forces opposed to him.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 26, 2010 07:03 AM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 07:06, 26 Mar 2010.
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It's not a material effect. It's the initial state. It's perfectly consistent with science.
Sorry, a singularity is not an initial state. No atheist can answer the question I have posed. Even the atheist "gurus" like Dawkins and Hitchens must plead ignorance. And until you can explain how the universe came to be from absolute nothing with no cause atheism must be considered irrational and in opposition to known science.
Trolling? Or is it some sort of protective reaction, like that of ostrich?
BTW, if you refer to the principle of causality as a scientific principle you must use it right. Science only deals with this world (math 'world' aside), so "every material thing must have a material reason". That's the way it works in science.
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dimis
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Digitally signed by FoG
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posted March 26, 2010 07:45 AM |
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Edited by dimis at 07:45, 26 Mar 2010.
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It's not a material effect. It's the initial state. It's perfectly consistent with science.
Sorry, a singularity is not an initial state. No atheist can answer the question I have posed. Even the atheist "gurus" like Dawkins and Hitchens must plead ignorance. And until you can explain how the universe came to be from absolute nothing with no cause atheism must be considered irrational and in opposition to known science.
The same silly questions that were answered in pages 37-38.
So, I will remind you again. For modern science, this sort of question is as if you are asking what lies northern from north pole. So, what is it Elodin ? This is the sort of question you are asking.
Again:
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(1) What is time ?, Lee Smolin
(2) What Happened Before the Big Bang ?, Paul Davies
There are more if you go back. 
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The empty set
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted March 26, 2010 10:11 AM |
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Edited by bixie at 15:34, 26 Mar 2010.
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also, hating the ideologies of the left is a bit like saying "I don't hate gays, I just hate the ideology of gays"
you also watch a rather unstable man who is "not a journalist," and says that "anyone who takes him seriously is an idiot." (-Glenn beck, new york times, june 16 2009 and also, Glenn beck, new york times, march 29 2009)
Idiots are the leftists who lie about what Glenn Beck says. The loony-tunes leftists like to hide in shadow and lie about who they are and Beck has exposed them.
and in turn, "Loony-leftists" are exposing Glenn beck as the psychopath he is.
also, this was an interview donne in the newyork times. Be sensible, Elodin, Fox news could easily sue the New york times if they lied about Glenn beck in an interview, but it's still running. so if it is just a "Leftist conspiracy", how come the new york times were the only one to print that interview, and didn't even make a big deal about it?
what's you're tin-foil hat got to say about it?
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Oh, you evidently have been chained in your parents' basement all your life or have been a hermit hidden away somwhere. It is obvious you have never had any sort of relationship with anyone if you think you can't disapprove of someone's actions while still loving the person who commits such action.
When you are ready for an adult relationship you will be able to love someone while disapproving of their actions. Don't dispair though, people can always grow.
I'm sorry, What?
what has this got to do with anything?
So, according to you, I've been chained up in my house all my life, despite a) I'm a uni student, living in residences b) I have a girl friend, and have been in several relationshiops, both with girls and guys c) I have visited america, ireland, thailand, mexico, canada, france, germany, greece and experienced their culture and d) my parents house doesn't have a basement, considering I live in a block of flats.
also, you can't love someone and disapprove of their actions. That leads to failed relationships. My current girlfriend is a philosophy student. do I disapprove of what she's doing, No!
unless you are talking about god when you say "Love but disapprove", in which case explain sodom and goharrah.
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However, none of this did much damage, as by 1952, more than 50% of ussr citizens were christian. surely you should be holding that up as a testament to your faith?
So the murders and stolen property were not damage? YES, of course, no matter how many times Christians have been murdered, atheismts still hav not been able to stamp out Christianity.
Seriously, only in your fantasies is that the purpose of Atheism.
and what about the time that christians have murdered other christians.
for me, the definition of christanity is not found in the bible, that is simply a set of moral guides. being part of a religion is whether or not you believe in it. it's a simple as that. You're a christian, because you believe in Jesus christ as well as in god. You're a hindu, because you believe in Brahma, Vishu and Shiva.
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we go to schools, we go to work, we go to churches, we watch tv.
those are all forms of indoctrination,
Again, that is just crazy talk. Receiving information is not the same as being indoctrinated.
What teaches you social norms?
People are indoctrinated into what its polite and accepted. Social norms are a form of indoctrination. otherwise, we'd be running around naked, shouting "Whoop-whoop-whoop!", and defecating in public. social norms are vital indoctrination to help the individual function in the society, and the teaching of those start from the parents.
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I have not been into one school where they bring a guest speaker who was a drop-out, or a christian mass where they brought a rabbi in to balance it out.
Yes, well, it would be idiotic to bring a person of a different religion in to preach in a Christiann church. However, at times Christians and followers of other religions do get together to talk about things.
Yes, but that's done away from the church, away from the mass, discussions in private, closed debates. It is rarely done of a public forum, though they do happen, and they most certainly don't happen whilst mass in on.
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I wish you had a clue about what you were talking about before you started pounding on your keyboard about what God would or would not like, supposedly based on the Bible.
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Eze 22:30 And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none.
God is simply saying "does anyone object to me, the almighty god, doing this? nope? ok then!" it wasn't a promotion of standing against him or having sympathy for the enemy, it was simply one calling someone out so that he could flex his muscles.
Sorry, you evidently have poor reading comprehsnsino skills. All through the Bible God calls on his people to be intercessors. To pray on behalf of others for their welfare.
another interpretion does not mean someone has poor comprehension skills. if that happened, there would only be one form of christainity. it would also mean the death of archeaology, history, sociology, psychology, philosophy, psychics, maths, chemistry, biology, drama, art, geography, and all academic subjects that rely on debate and discussion, because one opinion would be the truth, and only that would be taught, even if it is totally wrong.
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you're argument is "The bible is true!" simple as that! you then back it up with scientific evidence. You do not, as scientists would do, look at the evidence and say "So what does this say?"
I can only conclude that you are deliberately lying since I have addressed this a number of times.
I have referenced the laws of thermodynamics, the principle of causality, the observations of the COBE sattelite and Hubble telescope and various other things not found in the Bible.
When you find yourself capable of a mature adult rational honest discussion let me know.
You obviously have poor comprehension skills, as you can't clearly see what is written there. I only conclude that you are willfully ignorant in your discussion.
see, I can make damning statements too.
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could you get away with you're fascination about raping children? I wonder sometimes about, you Elodin.
absolute morality only exists in the mind of psychotics
.
Well, you refusing to say that raping babies is absolutely wrong certainly makes me wonder about you.
I will continue my "facination" of defending the right of children to live and not to be raped.
I think we need to make a new godwins law.
Elodins law: the longer a conversation goes on, the more likely it is for a statement involving the molestation of minors approaches one. when that happens, the conversation ends as the perpetrator doesn't realise that he has effectively killed the argument as no-one can argue against it, thus silencing any differing oppinions. this is, along with Godwins law, considered to be one of the arguments than end free speach due to the fact that there is no rebuttal to such a dick move.
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A man finds that his neighbour is a terrorist, and with the help of his ex-wife, is planning to bomb a bus full of innocent people. the man goes over there and kills his neighbour, his neighbours wife, who is totaly innocent, and his ex-wife. when the young boy sees, he kills the child to as not to spread the word.
Neither the terrorist nor the man who killed him are moral. The man who killed the terrorist also deliberately killed innocent people.
but... what did you say about absolute morality?
Someone must be be right and wrong, according to the beliefs that you have posted here on this website.
Also, Just as a further to the discussion, I found this very interesting BBC radio broadcast about the Pirahã tribe in brazil. see what you make of it.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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GrayFace
Promising
Known Hero
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posted March 27, 2010 07:49 AM |
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Edited by GrayFace at 07:51, 27 Mar 2010.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 27, 2010 08:20 AM |
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Happy 50th page to you all
Hooray!!!
50 pages and still walking the same circles as on page 1. Just shows how pointless it is to discuss religion - either you're in it, or you aren't.
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What will happen now?
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This thread is pages long: 
