Assuming all the claims of the article to be true (though extremely doubtful, honestly these day, even soap is suspected to increase the risk of cancer and I'd like to question how they exactly made those statistics, all we're presented with are averages, not uncertainities, which really tells a lot of the lack of quality of such claims. After all, remember there are vastly fewer homosexuals than heterosexuals, with just a little uncertainity on averages it can mean a huge difference, eventhough it's just random. Likewise I wonder if they remembered to take into account the era before knowledge about HIV, where, due to higher risk of rifts during gay sex, meant that homosexuals were more exposed of getting HIV, which, unless taken accounted for, would really ruin their statistics):
Quote:“Michigan's statewide 'gay' newspaper, Between the Lines, reports the risk of anal cancer 'soars' by nearly 4,000% for men who have [intercourse] with men. 'The rate doubles again for those who are HIV positive.' Between the Lines admits there's no such thing as 'safe [intercourse]' to prevent this 'soaring' cancer risk ...” Even a publication devoted entirely to a homosexual readership is willing to admit that the disparities in disease contraction between homosexuals and heterosexuals are enormous.
So? It doesn't matter if the practice of people harm themselves, it's their body and thereby their right. Making laws for peoples own safety against themselves are those kind of laws, that I hope will be among those that eventually gets removed.
Quote: Evolution has not made the same provisions for homosexual intercourse, since it is irrelevant, if not deleterious, to reproductive fitness. States Mr. Firehammer, “The only way the genitals can be used outside the heterosexual context is in some way that contradicts their natural function and is both dangerous and harmful.
This is incorrect. First of all, evolution does not prefer heterosexuality, evolution is merely the mechanism of random chance, determined by the current environment, that provides the current world. That means evolution prefers nothing, what by random mutation happens to survive is what goes on. And what happens to survive is most often the fittest, that is what have highest likelyness.
So looking at the world today, if there're homosexuality, homosexuality can happen, thereby is not something that goes against 'evolution'.
Also, it has been theorised that homosexuality is a contributer for some species survival, because it might lead to better taking care of others children, meaning focus is higher on surviving of future generations and not merely producing future generation. Especially for mammals, who get few kids, this can be a smart tactic.
There's no such thing as natural function. There's possible functions and that's it and what is possible is determined by the laws of nature.
All in all, I am sorry, but I can't take that article very serious. It lacks explanation on how they derived their results, and their idea of something goes against the idea of 'evolution' is not only personalizing the idea of evolution, like it was some kind of intelligent being deciding, it's also incorrect according to studies in homosexuality among other species that I've read.
Edit: Also, anal sex between a man and a woman does not make anyone homosexual, yet it would go in under the articles arguments, which mean it is not the act of homosexuality, but the act of using anal sex that is generally the problem, according to them.
And again, even if it is right, their argument "It is not healthy for you, so we don't allow you to do it" is not an argument of which to base a law, in my opinion.
Makes law to protect people from others, but unless they somehow have a damaged free will, protecting them from themselves makes as little sense as to violate them (as it is a limitation of their freedom).
____________
Living time backwards
Quote:Elodin can't answer my question and therefore he ignores it.
Ii'm not sure how I did not address your question since you asked what was harmful about homosexual sex. I did not address the question of what is harmful about a man sleepin with his daughter in law so I'll say a little about that.
Don't you think a man sleeping with his daughter in law would cause family problems? Wouldn't that cause trouble with his son and with his grandchildren?
Furthur, the daughter-in-law is a family member whom that man should consider to be a daughter.
Quote:So? It doesn't matter if the practice of people harm themselves, it's their body and thereby their right.
I was asked the question of what is harmful about it and I answered with the article.
As I've said in the past I could care how many people of what gender are in your bedroom.
bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
posted April 08, 2010 06:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:a strongly worded argument never hurt anyone... except those who refused to admit it's merits.
Personal insults have nothing to do with arguments.
Not unless it is justified.
Quote:
Quote:so, out of the whole of christianity, you could only find... two ways in which christianity has benevolenty guided society to where we are today. that of great literature, of which there is only one real example off, and helping in the end of slavery, as well as the preservation of latin.
False.
There is no reason for me to respond to the reast of your text.
Why?
because you're wrong and too cowardly to admit it?
I have already disproven all the points that you have raised that christianity had done for the benefit of society. I have given you three points that could be considered a benefit to society that christianity has done, and I have trumped you with the things that muslims, pagans and hindus have done, I haven't even gotten warmed up. The Doaists did as much, if not more, than the western pagans, and the middle eastern practically founded the society we live on. and you cowardly brush them under the rug like they don't matter.
I declared a intellectual challenge to you, and I have bested you. and you're too intellectually dishonest and dishonourable to admit it. If you had any credibilty to start with, it has crashed through the floor. you are only digging yourself in deeper by presented blatant homophobia as facts in a public forum.
Leave, Elodin. Leave with some of you're dignity intact, for the sake of yourself.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
Quote:I was asked the question of what is harmful about it and I answered with the article.
Ah, I understood Mvass differently. I thought he meant, how it was harmful towards others in such a way that it must be banned.
____________
Living time backwards
I watched "Jesus Camp" again and one of the ministers in the documentary is Pentecostal. Obviously I don't know much about it, but I got interested in this thing called glossolalia. When I was watching the film for the first time, I thought they were praying in Aramaic or something, but actually they were uttering random syllables, right?
You continue your slander and insults of me. I have asked you to stop such.
I suppose, a lot of people here have asked you to stop slandering and insulting reason, logic, truth, common sense, intelligence and of course atheists, socialists, and a plethora more...
So. You continue to defend false-quoting and making false claims about what people say and what not.
You continue to deny history - wars between different Christian denominations.
You deny that "heretic" has a hostile meaning.
In short, you deny reality and advertise your own.
You live in your very own world - and I have no problem to let you live in it.
However, I HAVE a problem with you (or anyone else, for that matter) vandalizing, mutilizing, abusing, misusing, twisting, and maiming the "crap" I write and claim that I said things I never said.
Therefore I ask you in all kindliness and friendship to stop, if not quoting, at least false-quoting, intentionally and malign mis-interpreting of quotes and claiming of statements that were never made, all for the sake of conjuring an imaginary point out of thin air.
If you do NOT stop it, I will collect the false-quotes, mis-quotes, false claims, defamations and slanders, until there are enough, so that not even the moderation here can ignore them. That's a promise, Elodin, and believe me, I will not stop at my own "crap".
So I hope, we are clear now. Deny what you want. Quote me and tell everyone about the pink horse, no problem.
But stop THE HELL to assume what you would like to, and make false claims about what people say.
Do you have this much love for thy neighbour/enemy?
Quote:because you're wrong and too cowardly to admit it?
You continue to heap insults upon me.
Quote:I have already disproven all the points that you have raised that christianity had done for the benefit of society
False
Quote:I declared a intellectual challenge to you, and I have bested you. and you're too intellectually dishonest and dishonourable to admit it. If you had any credibilty to start with, it has crashed through the floor. you are only digging yourself in deeper by presented blatant homophobia as facts in a public forum.
Your posts are just brimming with insults an slander, eh?
No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that he believes smoking is wrong or whatever.
Quote:I watched "Jesus Camp" again and one of the ministers in the documentary is Pentecostal. Obviously I don't know much about it, but I got interested in this thing called glossolalia. When I was watching the film for the first time, I thought they were praying in Aramaic or something, but actually they were uttering random syllables, right?
If you will go back and read my posts you will see that I stated that the wiki article said the group is Pentecostal/charismatic. Which means thsy belief all of the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
There are various Pentecostal denominations, a fact that you seem to be unaware of. The Jesus Camp lady is not associated with my denomination.
Furthur, as stated before, the "Jesus Camp" film is associated with Michael More and is evidently nothing but a smear piece according to Christians who have watched the film, as I quoted. I have not seen it myself but I accept their judgement knowing what garbage Moore has put out before.
Quote:No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that he believes smoking is wrong or whatever.
The article you linked says that gay men are immoral and mentally disturbed. The Code of Conduct forbids posting remarks that associates negativity with a group of people based on their sexual orientation.
Quote:There are various Pentecostal denominations, a fact that you seem to be unaware of. The Jesus Camp lady is not associated with my denomination.
Do members of your denomination practice glossolalia? Have you personally had this experience?
Quote:Furthur, as stated before, the "Jesus Camp" film is associated with Michael More and is evidently nothing but a smear piece according to Christians who have watched the film, as I quoted. I have not seen it myself but I accept their judgement knowing what garbage Moore has put out before.
Yes, "Jesus Camp" was screened at Moore's film festival against the wishes of the distribution company.
____________
Quote:I suppose, a lot of people here have asked you to stop slandering and insulting reason, logic, truth, common sense, intelligence and of course atheists, socialists, and a plethora more...
I have been doing everything I can to avoid even the appearance of an insult since I was told I could not call an idea moronic. But you and others continue to insult me directly with no moderator action.
Quote:So. You continue to defend false-quoting and making false claims about what people say and what not.
I quoted exactly what you said. I added bold type and underlines to show that you said what I said you said.
Quote:You continue to deny history - wars between different Christian denominations.
I denied your false charges that the various Christian denominations frown upon, have enmity towards, and hate for people of other denominatinos.
I challenged you to produce studies from reputable sources that back up your claims but you could not. I pointed out that I have been friends with people of different denominations my whole life and am friends with a Catholic priest.
Quote:You deny that "heretic" has a hostile meaning
.
It does not. It means that a person holds a false belief about Christianity. AS used by Catholics it means a person who holds religious beliefs in conflict with the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church
Quote:In short, you deny reality and advertise your own.
You live in your very own world - and I have no problem to let you live in it.
[/quote]
I get the feeling that poeple feel they have a green light to insult me at will. I guess only time will tell if that is indeed the case.
Quote:However, I HAVE a problem with you (or anyone else, for that matter) vandalizing, mutilizing, abusing, misusing, twisting, and maiming the "crap" I write and claim that I said things I never said.
If you want to call your own writing "crap" feel free you are certainly free to do so.
I quoted exactly what you said, only I used underlines and bold print to point out the things that you denied that you said.
Quote:But stop THE HELL to assume what you would like to, and make false claims about what people say.
Do you have this much love for thy neighbour/enemy?
Your charges are false. I quoted you exactly, only adding underlining and bold print to point out the things that you said that you denied saying.
Elodin:
But if gay people want to take risks, why not let them? If people want to sleep with their daughters-in-law, why not let them? I'm not a fan of it, of course, but I'm sure that it's not a matter for the law to decide.
____________ Eccentric Opinion
Quote:Elodin:
But if gay people want to take risks, why not let them? If people want to sleep with their daughters-in-law, why not let them? I'm not a fan of it, of course, but I'm sure that it's not a matter for the law to decide.
Oh, I believe in the US certainly everyone should be free to sleep with whoever they wish to.
But you were asking about ancient Israel, which was a theocracy. I already explained that God decreed certain things to be sin and Isreal was supposed to be a pure nation dedicated to following God. The Law given by God was Isreal's national law.
Right, Elodin, okay, so you don't even have the love to treat your neighbours with truth and honesty.
Counter is running: 1
CLAIM: The statement was made that Christianity is composed of a group of denominations that are all hostile to one another.
This claim has been made several times within the last couple of pages.
However, when asked to show where that statement was made, the claimer couldn't.
I direct attention to the small word in italics that makes a world of difference here.
Quote:because you're wrong and too cowardly to admit it?
You continue to heap insults upon me.
well, you're not behaving in a especially cowardly manner.
Quote:
Quote:I have already disproven all the points that you have raised that christianity had done for the benefit of society
False
Prove me wrong, then. Engage in an intellectual debate, rather than act like a child and make statements with no evidence.
Quote:
Quote:I declared a intellectual challenge to you, and I have bested you. and you're too intellectually dishonest and dishonourable to admit it. If you had any credibilty to start with, it has crashed through the floor. you are only digging yourself in deeper by presented blatant homophobia as facts in a public forum.
Your posts are just brimming with insults an slander, eh?
Yes, they are.
and you know what?
anyone just has to read back a couple of pages to realise that the insults are not baseless.
Quote:
No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that he believes smoking is wrong or whatever.
let me make a slight alteration to that statement, I have a feeling you are lying somewhat, and this post doesn't account for your real views
Quote:
No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that anyone who disobeys my particular branch of christianity is a dirty, evil heathen who deserves to be burnt along with the fags
a little more accuracy would be appreciated.
Quote:
Quote:I watched "Jesus Camp" again and one of the ministers in the documentary is Pentecostal. Obviously I don't know much about it, but I got interested in this thing called glossolalia. When I was watching the film for the first time, I thought they were praying in Aramaic or something, but actually they were uttering random syllables, right?
If you will go back and read my posts you will see that I stated that the wiki article said the group is Pentecostal/charismatic. Which means thsy belief all of the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
There are various Pentecostal denominations, a fact that you seem to be unaware of. The Jesus Camp lady is not associated with my denomination.
yeah, backpedal like a mad f**ker, diassociate yourself with you're fellow christians.
it's what jesus wants.
Quote:
Furthur, as stated before, the "Jesus Camp" film is associated with Michael More and is evidently nothing but a smear piece according to Christians who have watched the film, as I quoted.
Funny, I know several christians who have seen it and are quite willing to accept that stuff like that happens. one of thems a PHD.
Quote:
I have not seen it myself but I accept their judgement knowing what garbage Moore has put out before.
Then how can you make judgements on it? see the peice for yourself and judge it on it's merits. if you don't, you're no better than people who claim that Christianity is a waste of space, even if they have never tried it.
Moore to the point (pun intended), You hate Micheal Moore, and you judge the film based on the director, which is poor critic-work. I hate Micheal Bay, but I still enjoyed the original Transformers. I hate Disney, but I can say that I have enjoyed many of their movies. Judging a film based on the director is just as bad as judging a film based on one cameo from jack black.
You're judgement on the film is based on the views of some biased christians, and not of the film itself. You're making you're judgements based on flawed logic. I thought I was going to hate the new Doctor Who, because I'm a big fan of David tennant. but low and behold, I think it's fantastic.
Be more Egalitarian, Elodin, for goodness sake. It does you good, trust me.
____________
Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
Quote:The article you linked says that gay men are immoral and mentally disturbed. The Code of Conduct forbids posting remarks that associates negativity with a group of people based on their sexual orientation.
Associating religion with negativity is also called "racism" in the COC.
The difference is you (and others) directly associate religion with negativity. I QUOTED an article in answer to a qutesion about how gay sex is harmful. The author of the article made a moral judgement on gay sex, saying it is sin and clearlly stated the judgment was based on waht the Bible teaches.
Quote:Do members of your denomination practice glossolalia? Have you personally had this experience?
Yes. I have previously stated so many times and given a summary of my spiritual journey from the time I first began to be interested in spiritual things until now. I'm sure you can find it if you dig through my posts.
Quote:Yes, "Jesus Camp" was screened at Moore's film festival against the wishes of the distribution company.
I gave a quote already from a Christian who reviewed the film. No need for me to reapeat it. He said it was a smear job.
____________ Revelation
Quote:Right, Elodin, okay, so you don't even have the love to treat your neighbours with truth and honesty.
Counter is running: 1
CLAIM:
The statement was made that Christianity is composed of a group of denominations that are all hostile to one another.
This claim has been made several times within the last couple of pages.
However, when asked to show where that statement was made, the claimer couldn't.
I direct attention to the small word in italics that makes a world of difference here.
I repeat: STOP THIS.
Sorry, but I porved you indeed did say that.
Quote:
Take for example Catholicism, one of my favorites when it comes to religion and their sorry consequences. You can make a plethora of points against actual Catholicism and its highest representants, a lot of them serious and damning, but the simple people who ARE Catholics are - in my eyes - just victims.
The fact that there ARE so many different (and partly RADICALLY different) "versions" of Christianity is damning enough for the religion as a whole.
With the general decline of importance of religion in the Western World it has stopped to become a major issue, but isn't it STRANGE, that not so long ago, that I couldn't remember anymore, friendship between Catholics and Protestants (especially) were frowned upon and marriage an anathema in Germany?
How is that possible? How can a religion that is supposed to advertise universal love produce so much enmity withthin the ranks of their own supporters?And before you start with, "that's the human factor", nope. You see, as there are certain crimes that every "straight" criminal frowns upon, there's this thing called "heresy" which seems to be the worst thing possible. It has more to do with the fact that religion in general doesn't come with "facts", and when it comes with what is supposed to be "facts", like manuscripts", these stuff is naturally open to interpretation.
The interesting thing is, that you will NEVER EVER see serious enmity on a large scale for differing interpretations of scientific "facts". Can someone imagine people called "Big-Bangers" and "Steady-Staters", hating each other, warring against each other...? After all, we can't really know, can we?
Quote:there basically IS NO Christianity, only a plethora of factions, supposedly all believing the same thing, but in such a radically different way that they frown upon each other.
Quote:Can you really believe in ANY official version of a religion that at its core suggests to love even your enemies, when the followers of that religion are split into an uncounted number of rivalling groupings which may even be hostile against each other?
Quote:Prove me wrong, then. Engage in an intellectual debate, rather than act like a child and make statements with no evidence.
Funny, you have made an aweful lot of statements with no proof. I will post more on contributions of Christianity to society later today or perhaps tomorrw, as I have time and address some of your claims that will be easilyl proven wrong.
If you haven't noticed, I am debating with a numer of people and you are debating with only me. So don't be jealous of my time spent with others.
Quote:let me make a slight alteration to that statement, I have a feeling you are lying somewhat, and this post doesn't account for your real views
Oh? I have always stated my views quite openly and the reasons for what I believe.
Quote:No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that anyone who disobeys my particular branch of christianity is a dirty, evil heathen who deserves to be burnt along with the fags
It is interesting and revealing that you edited my post to make it say what I did not say.
Sorry, since you edited my post in such a manner I chose to ignore all your posts for at least several days. If you learn to behave yourself I may grace you with replying to your future posts. ____________ Revelation
Quote:Prove me wrong, then. Engage in an intellectual debate, rather than act like a child and make statements with no evidence.
Funny, you have made an aweful lot of statements with no proof. I will post more on contributions of Christianity to society later today or perhaps tomorrow, as I have time and address some of your claims that will be easily proven wrong.
Good, I look forward to being so.
Quote:
If you haven't noticed, I am debating with a numer of people and you are debating with only me. So don't be jealous of my time spent with others.
you coy trickster you... you make me so horny.
Quote:
Quote:let me make a slight alteration to that statement, I have a feeling you are lying somewhat, and this post doesn't account for your real views
Oh? I have always stated my views quite openly and the reasons for what I believe.
Quote:No, the article I quoted presented medical facts about the harmful effects of homosexual sex on the persons involved. The individual who wrote the article made moral judgements about the gay sex, which is no differnt from saying that anyone who disobeys my particular branch of christianity is a dirty, evil heathen who deserves to be burnt along with the fags
It is interesting and revealing that you edited my post to make it say what I did not say.
Sorry, since you edited my post in such a manner I chose to ignore all your posts for at least several days. If you learn to behave yourself I may grace you with replying to your future posts.
Oh grow a sense of humour and get down off you're high horse!
Wait a moment...
If you're not going to reply to my posts, I can post whatever I like to you, and you have no way to prove me wrong or counter act with any evidence...
I can quite comfortably say that you are a heroin shooting kiddie fiddler who sticks his nose up chickens bums... and there's nothing you can do to stop me.
more to the point, you're silence will simply be confirmation on that fact.
do you're worst, baby! I'm ready for you. you can be as rough as you want, It only makes it more fun for me!
Contrary to what you believe, Elodin, I do believe in a god. I believe in a god who is nothing like you have ever known. A jealous god, a Harsh god who never sugar-coats his words, nor offers something she cannot give. A god whose punishment is swift and terrible, but always has a honest and justified reason behing it. A god who take sanctuary in libraries, laboratories, Theatres and in book shops, whose monasteries are Universities, research centres and creative outreaches, and whose scriptures are books, documents, videos and more. A god whose not afraid to admit he is wrong, to show that he is not infallible, but is willing to learn more. A god who offers her worshipers to understand the universe he is a part of. This god does not hate on the bases of race, creed, class, sex, or sexuality, but hates on the bases of ignorance and falsehoods. A god who revels in fantasy, but understands that reality must come first. A God who is worthy of worship, for he does great deeds, but is humble enough not to boast or claim falsely, and demands that her followers respect other religions and give them they're dues by what they had brought unto us. His preachers are educators, her followers are educated, his sacred animals are not beasts of power, but of cunning. It is not sinful, to her, to have ideas that counteract his teachings, as it will be settled in the debating ring, like all good ideas, and will be judged and included on their own merit, and not what is established. You make know her name, but not believe that they are a force.
I worship the god, thought.
I'm not sorry, but someone has to tell you, that there is one way only to prove that someone said something: QUOTING it. You cannot quote a page of text, underline a couple of words here, bold print a couple there, italic a few on top and then glue them together any way you like to create Frankenstein's Monster.
Counter says now: 2
I declare yet again: I did not say what you claim. And I ask you for the third, officially, formally and politely:
I think that's gotta be one of the biggest loads of crap I've ever read in my life.
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
This thread is pages long: 
posted April 08, 2010 05:58 PM
