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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted April 06, 2010 01:58 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 02:22, 06 Apr 2010.
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People could you all please stop taking what Elodin says as some kind of standard by which you meassure christianity? You guys aren't stupid you've proven so often enough and it really doesn't take a genius to see that Elodin is a hardliner, to put it gently. Yet all I see from you people is that you take him by the word and somehow make conclusions about christianity and god. Seriously?
Of course its childplay to "win" an argument against such hardliners, the very way of their argument makes them easy prey let alone their arguments, but for gods sake will you stop assuming that most christians behave like that? Or that christianity shares any of his view points (just take his statement "People who are not obeying God are not his spiritual children". Who is Elodin to say such a thing? Yet you people practically jump on statements like these. It's absolutely ridiculous to take these points on, I'd never have thought I needed to tell you. Yet I see people of such towering intellect as Vlaad taking him on on point like those. And he's not the only one practically all of you are doing it oO. This can't be happening oO.)
I'm very sorry but I find grosely offensive that you would draw conclusions about christianity in general from such behaviour. Elodin is not a spokeperson for christianity, he just represents a branch, like I do. I'm positive that all of you can see that he's not an "normal" example. But if you know that then why do you people keep generalizeing? It hurts to see people like you who really should know better condem a group of believers because they see one hardliner.
EDIT:Moonlith you may be the exception hating christianity for various reasons and not using this thread in order to parttake in a debate but simply to gleefully jump on Elodins points and parade them arround as if you could finally prove everything you despise about christianity with his statements. Well if you somehow feel vindicated exposing a zealot be my guest...
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 03:35 AM |
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Everybody is entitled to their beliefs. We couldn't stop anybody from believing (or not) in anything. Even disbelief in oneself. I suppose that's freedom of thought at work.
Anyway, yes. Elodin does not speak for all Christians. He's what, Episcopal? That leaves out the other 100+ branches of Christianity and the individuals who forge their own way.
Perhaps we need to bring in some new blood with differing views.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 03:38 AM |
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Azagal:
Be that as it may, it can't be denied that there are many people in the world who share Elodin's point of view, and there are even some to whom Elodin would seem a moderate or liberal Christian.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
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posted April 06, 2010 03:38 AM |
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Edited by Azagal at 03:47, 06 Apr 2010.
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That would certainly help but if you look back the the last 50 pages I'm not really intrigued...
@Mvass
Be that as it may but their oppinions and their way of stating them obviously speak for themselves as I already said. Neither do they represent christianity in general nor do their oppinions mvass. So what was your point? That it's ok to generalize because there are more people like Elodin out there? Well would you think it's possible that there are even more christians out there who aren't anywhere near as zealous? And if you do think it's possible I would very much hope that you'd see how you are generalizing and judgeing all those people when you're in no position to judge them based on the posts that burst with the certainty of a zealot.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 04:27 AM |
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"Christians as a whole"? There's really no such thing. There are the Elodin-type Christians and the moderate Christians - two groups that are quite different. While we can't call Elodin a normal Christian, I hesitate to call him "abnormal".
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Eccentric Opinion
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 06, 2010 04:43 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 05:36, 06 Apr 2010.
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Hey Azagal. Like I said, I'm an atheist but some of my friends are religious. Most of them are Christian, one is Muslim and one Buddhist. I consider them all good and intelligent people. I have nothing against Christianity. The opposite is true, actually. My grandparents were Christian and I have fond childhood memories of Christmas and Easter. None of those people are Bible thumpers though, so my life is almost devoid of religion. It's only when I see chocolate bunnies in the local Walmart that I remember religion exists. It's been that way since high school, when we studied the Bible in literature and art classes. I thought it was wonderful. In general, I find human spirituality a fascinating topic. I even admire Christ and respect his teachings, although I don't believe he was a son of God or rose from the dead.
I don't think Elodin is a typical Christian either. He is obviously an advocate of Biblical literalism and as far as I know, most Christians are not. When I say that God committed a genocide by killing Egyptian babies, I refer to Elodin's God. I strongly believe that fundamentalism is a horrible thing. You say it should be ignored, but my experience is different.
If moderators do not act, you can expect people will eventually reply. I will always do my best to abide to the rules, simply because I care about this community. However, it has become obvious that you can drive a truck through the loopholes in the Code of Conduct. On the other hand, there is a good side to all this. If we let such people speak, everybody can see who they really are.
And it's nothing personal. Had it been you, I'd have posted the same questions.
Happy Easter, Az.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2010 04:52 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 04:58, 06 Apr 2010.
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Quote:
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OhforfSake saying that God is not good because some people think he is not good.
False
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OhforfSake saying that God is not good in the eyes of everyone because some people think he is not good.
Corrected
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OhforfSake saying that God is not good because some people think he is not good God decides to limits others freedom unnecessary.
Corrected
That's not what you said, dude. Here is exactly what you said.
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Clearly the acts of Gods aren't of any absolute moral good, simply, because even people in this random spot on the internet disagree with it.
Saying that God is not good because some people disagree that he is good is not logical.
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People who are not obeying God are not his spiritual children.
I see. What does your church teach about Hell? What will happen to those who have not accepted Christ as their savior?
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Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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For reference, below is exactly what I said. It is a completely normal statement.
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God is good. God is all-knowing. God is both God and man and is in a perfect position to judge man.
Nope. It is a 'factual statement' that is not based on any facts whatsoever.
Sorry, your lack of belief that a fact is a fact does not change the fact. 2 + 3 = 5 even if you were to think it is 7.
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It is based on what is written in a book that can't be proven to have been written by God him/her/it-self, and the people's mutated interpretations thereof.
My beliefs are based on both the Word of God and experiences with God during my lifetime. And I don't think you have sufficient knowledge of the Bible to say that anyone's interpretation of it is "mutated."
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Hence, it is not a normal statement, but a false one.
Sorry, but my statemnt that God is good is not false. And I think that most people would say that God is good, so my statement is quite normal. The abnormal position to hold would be that God is evil.
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That doesn't mean it can't be true, but untill it is -proven- you cannot state it as a fact. And the more you uphold it is alright to state it like that, the dumber you look.
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In fact, I'm so nice and generous, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought of me as the reincarnation of Jesus ***ing Christ.
First, Jesus is still in his body, which has been glorified.
Second, I can assure you that no Christian is going to mistake you for Christ.
@Azagal
I am not sure what you mean by calling me a hardliner and a fanatic. If you mean that I follow Chist and try to do his will, then yes, I am a fanatic.
Jesus was something of a fanatic if you want to call it that.
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"People who are not obeying God are not his spiritual children". Who is Elodin to say such a thing?
Do you wish to debate that subject based on the Bible?
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Joh 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
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I'm very sorry but I find grosely offensive that you would draw conclusions about christianity in general from such behaviour.
My "behavior" is to "contend for the faith" as Christians are supposed to do. When people make false statements about God, his Word, or his people I address the false statments.
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Anyway, yes. Elodin does not speak for all Christians. He's what, Episcopal?
I am Pentecostal actually.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 04:58 AM |
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Quote:
2 + 3 = 5 even if you were to think it is 7.
Somehow, I find this to be oddly appropriate. 
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Eccentric Opinion
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 06, 2010 05:19 AM |
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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 06, 2010 06:08 AM |
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That's not what you said, dude. Here is exactly what you said.
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Clearly the acts of Gods aren't of any absolute moral good, simply, because even people in this random spot on the internet disagree with it.
Saying that God is not good because some people disagree that he is good is not logical.
Apply earlier suggested definition of absolute moral.
Also, in principe, I don't care much about what I said, or how you understood what I said. The talk is about sharing information, if you see a difference between what you think I meant, and what I actually meant, through my clarification, it should be obvious the point were misunderstood and the talk should continue from that point and not go back and say stuff like: "No, you said something else, so you must keep on that"
As that would create the actual war type of a discussion, where it is about to win and not about to share viewpoints, which I'm not interested in.
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Living time backwards
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2010 07:04 AM |
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I am Pentecostal actually.
Sounds familiar. "Jesus Camp"?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RNfL6IVWCE
Sorry, all I know about "Jesus Camp" is some people try to use it as a slur.
"Jesus Camp" is not affiliated with my denomination and I don't have much information on the teachings and practices that go on there. As far as a camp where children go to and have fun with other Christian children, I have no problem with that.
As far as Pentecostal, I doubt you have ever set foot in a Pentecostal church and that you have enough knowledge of the Bible to debate the teachings and practices of Pentecostals.
Oh, upon googling some information about "Jesus Camp" I see the "documentary" is associated with Michael Moore so I'd not attatch any vale to it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
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According to Ron Reno of Focus on the Family,
"The directors' claims that they were simply trying to create an 'objective' film about children and faith ring hollow. I don't question the motives of the Christians shown in the film. Indeed, the earnestness and zeal with which the young people pictured attempt to live out their faith are admirable. Unfortunately, however, it appears that they were unknowingly being manipulated by the directors in their effort to cast evangelical Christianity in an unflattering light."[7]
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Also, in principe, I don't care much about what I said, or how you understood what I said. The talk is about sharing information, if you see a difference between what you think I meant, and what I actually meant, through my clarification, it should be obvious the point were misunderstood and the talk should continue from that point and not go back and say stuff like: "No, you said something else, so you must keep on that"
I quoted exactly what you said. Furthur, when you made the changes to what you said, you did not say, "sorry, I could have worded that better, that's not waht I meant. What I meant was..." Instead you said , "False statment" and then claimed you siad things you had not said.
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Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
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posted April 06, 2010 07:10 AM |
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Edited by Moonlith at 07:11, 06 Apr 2010.
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@ Azagal:
You must be mistaken. What's not to like about a doctrine that shuts people down mentally and dictates them to blindly belief in dogmas regardless what evidence is brought or what questions are asked?
In all truth though, for all the bad comments, Elodin and I share a common goal; we both seek to come closer to god and end up on the path to salvation, peace and love. The sad truth is, he is being deceived by the Devil.
Elodin, I'm telling you this because I want to help you... You think you're being a good Christian and follower of Jesus, but that's not Jesus talking, it's the Devil... The devil is tricking you into thinking you're on the path to heaven but you're going straight to hell...
It's not too late though. You can still follow my path, the truth path, to heaven, for my path is the only path that shall bring you salvation, peace, love and freedom. Look into your heart and see the truth....
It's not too late, son... Follow me in my new religion that I will call, Moonlithism. People will laugh now, but in 2000 years people will accept it as selfevident, having seen the true light... Follow me, Elodin. Believe in me, for I alone can bring you salvation.... You may think you've already found it, but I know it is the devil's doing, who is deceiving you... Snap out of it, Elodin, and see the light... Before it is too late!
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 06, 2010 08:09 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 08:17, 06 Apr 2010.
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Quote:
"Jesus Camp" is not affiliated with my denomination
OK, I asked because the wikipedia article you quoted says it is.Quote:
As far as Pentecostal, I doubt you have ever set foot in a Pentecostal church and that you have enough knowledge of the Bible to debate the teachings and practices of Pentecostals.
I have no desire to debate the teachings and practices of Pentecostals. I was only curious what happens to those who have not accepted Christ as their savior. I was wondering whether 2/3 of humanity will burn in Hell according to your denomination or not. The interpretations of the Bible differ on this matter. I asked about your denomination because I assumed you were more familiar with it than with others.
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Elodin
Promising
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Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2010 08:31 AM |
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Quote:
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"Jesus Camp" is not affiliated with my denomination
OK, I asked because the wikipedia article you quoted says it is.Quote:
Actually, in saying Pentecostal/charismatic the wikipidia is only saying the the people believe the gifts of the Spirit are for today.
I don't see where a particular denominatino is named. And, as I pointed out other Chrisitnas who saw the "documentary" said it was just a smear piece though I have not seen it myself.
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Revelation
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 06, 2010 08:50 AM |
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@ Azagal
I'm not sure, ANYONE here is saying something against "Christianity". If people critisize the actions of the US and their former president, people aren't saying they have something against the people of the US either, don't they?
This is about Christian RELIGION, not the people who follow it, at least not all or the majority.
Take for example Catholicism, one of my favorites when it comes to religion and their sorry consequences. You can make a plethora of points against actual Catholicism and its highest representants, a lot of them serious and damning, but the simple people who ARE Catholics are - in my eyes - just victims.
The fact that there ARE so many different (and partly RADICALLY different) "versions" of Christianity is damning enough for the religion as a whole.
With the general decline of importance of religion in the Western World it has stopped to become a major issue, but isn't it STRANGE, that not so long ago, that I couldn't remember anymore, friendship between Catholics and Protestants (especially) were frowned upon and marriage an anathema in Germany?
How is that possible? How can a religion that is supposed to advertise universal love produce so much enmity withthin the ranks of their own supporters?
And before you start with, "that's the human factor", nope. You see, as there are certain crimes that every "straight" criminal frowns upon, there's this thing called "heresy" which seems to be the worst thing possible. It has more to do with the fact that religion in general doesn't come with "facts", and when it comes with what is supposed to be "facts", like manuscripts", these stuff is naturally open to interpretation.
The interesting thing is, that you will NEVER EVER see serious enmity on a large scale for differing interpretations of scientific "facts". Can someone imagine people called "Big-Bangers" and "Steady-Staters", hating each other, warring against each other...? After all, we can't really know, can we?
But with religion, where we do know least of all and cannot learn more (which may be one of the reasons why there is this phenomenon) people are not building on what they have in common ("we believe in our savior Jesus Christ)", but on what they DIFFER: (For example: God is a Trinity - God is two or three seperate beings.... [endless list possible]).
Anyway, I don't want to get into lecturing here, so I repeat the point. It's not Christianity that is under siege here - it's more the fact that there basically IS NO Christianity, only a plethora of factions, supposedly all believing the same thing, but in such a radically different way that they frown upon each other. Not to mention the more than dubious character of, for example, Catholiscism and their leadership, which all in all sums up to a rather sobering truth:
Can you really believe in ANY official version of a religion that at its core suggests to love even your enemies, when the followers of that religion are split into an uncounted number of rivalling groupings which may even be hostile against each other?
I mean, it's like watching a number of blind people. One says: "Wow, I can see a blinding light right before me that is guiding me; it's a shining golden glow, absolutely beautiful, warm and beinign..." A couple of voices uttering agreements, "Yeah, I can see it, too, it's just GREAT, it's overwhelming, right here right in front of me..." And then a voice says: "Well, I can see the light, too, it's all you said, except it's of a smooth silver, all shiny and soothing to look at", and again THAT draws agreement, until another voice starts up with "scintillating rainbow-colours" and so on. And they start squabbling. "The light is golden." "No, it's silver." "No, it's everything at the same time." "No, thats not possible." "It is, I see it." "I see it as well, but differently!" "One word, and you'll see stars!"...
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 06, 2010 04:15 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:23, 06 Apr 2010.
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Quote:
The fact that there ARE so many different (and partly RADICALLY different) "versions" of Christianity is damning enough for the religion as a whole.
I hardly see how it is damning to have differnt denominations withing Christianity. Most of the differences are relatively minor. Is that also a damning indictment against "Scince" since all scientists don't agree on everything?
I dare say not all atheists have the same opinions about everything either, so I guess the indictment falls on their heads asa well.
The indictment falls on humanity in general since there is such a diversity of opinion on pretty much anthing that can be disagreed on.
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With the general decline of importance of religion in the Western World it has stopped to become a major issue, but isn't it STRANGE, that not so long ago, that I couldn't remember anymore, friendship between Catholics and Protestants (especially) were frowned upon and marriage an anathema in Germany?
ACtually, atheism is in worldwide decline, not religion. I have linked to the source before, and can produce that again if you with.
I think the Catholic teaching is that a Catholic should only marry a Protestant who is regularly attends church, is in good standing with his denomination, and who agrees to raise the children Catholic.
Maybe you'd like to link to an official Catholic teaching that says not to be friends with Protestants because I believe you are wrong about that. I have a number of Catholic friends, and have throughout my life. In fact one of my friends is a Catholic priest who I have known for many years, and knew before he became a priest.
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How is that possible? How can a religion that is supposed to advertise universal love produce so much enmity withthin the ranks of their own supporters?
Sorry, I don't see enmity between Catholics and Protestants. Maybe you could link to a reputable poll, gallup or something like that, that shows an animosity between Catholics nd Protestants and that Baptists hate Episcopals, ect.
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It has more to do with the fact that religion in general doesn't come with "facts", and when it comes with what is supposed to be "facts", like manuscripts", these stuff is naturally open to interpretation.
It is not a fact that religion does not come with facts. Christianity does come with quite a few facts. And the Bible is a not some document that can be PROPERLY read as saying anything you want it to.
Lawyers "interpret" the Constitution and various laws in a number of ways. Does that mean the Constitution means anything you want it to mean?
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The interesting thing is, that you will NEVER EVER see serious enmity on a large scale for differing interpretations of scientific "facts". Can someone imagine people called "Big-Bangers" and "Steady-Staters", hating each other, warring against each other...? After all, we can't really know, can we?
We see athsit tyrants slaughtering millions of hulman beings, many simply because they believe in God.
We do see witin science a pressure to "go with the flow" and an ostrinization of scientists who are 'outside the mainsteam."
We see Hitler trying to engineer a "master race" and slaughtering millions in the process.
America is a great melting pot. If the things you have been saying were true America should be a volent battleground with so many differnt religinos and the differernt denominations of Christianity. Instead, the only civil war in American history was over state's rights. Therefore I conclude your claims to be false.
Studies show that religious people tend to be more charitable and help their fallow man more than non-religious people, are more mentally stable, and commit suicide less. Threfore relgion in general leads to more societal and global stability than an atheistic worldview.
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But with religion, where we do know least of all and cannot learn more (which may be one of the reasons why there is this phenomenon) people are not building on what they have in common ("we believe in our savior Jesus Christ)", but on what they DIFFER: (For example: God is a Trinity - God is two or three seperate beings.... [endless list possible]).
Huh? I am continually leaning about new things in God. And I have been to a number of differnt interdenominational worship services.
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Anyway, I don't want to get into lecturing here, so I repeat the point. It's not Christianity that is under siege here - it's more the fact that there basically IS NO Christianity, only a plethora of factions, supposedly all believing the same thing, but in such a radically different way that they frown upon each other.
Nah, I don't see Chrisitans frowing at each other just because they belong to a different denomination. I greet others from differnt denominations with a smile.  I enjoy talking the Catholic priest who is my friend.
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Can you really believe in ANY official version of a religion that at its core suggests to love even your enemies, when the followers of that religion are split into an uncounted number of rivalling groupings which may even be hostile against each other?
You continue to make false claims about what Christianity teaches. And you have painted a false picture of Christianity is bein a spintered gourp of people who are hostile towards each other.
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Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Christianity teaches:
1) Love God
2) Love your fellow man.
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Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
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I mean, it's like watching a number of blind people.
I certainly don't see the false view of Christianity that you have painted.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 07, 2010 10:22 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 10:59, 07 Apr 2010.
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On a totally random note. If in the beginning there was only chaos..and in the end things will return to only chaos..that would make sense. Since Chaos would be the Alpha and the Omega (the beginning and the End) that would mean that God is Chaos. Since he is apparently above his own laws, and doesn't have to obey them..(That shall not kill, yet he killed the first son of all the egyptions, not to mention many others (the flood, etc)) it would make perfect sense. God IS chaos, so that means it doesn't matter if he contridicts himself, or does things he tells others not to do.
(This is said tongue in cheek..just trying to lighten up the mood a little).
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 07, 2010 12:19 PM |
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What about the Devil then? Would he be Order? Or God's alter ego as in Jekyll and Hyde? Not exist?
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 07, 2010 12:25 PM |
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The devil or 'evil' would not be just Order..but rigid unyeilding order. Chaos is special in that it has no limits. Chaos' randomness can make it order also. Order however, can not be chaos..for it has rules and guidelines.
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Message received.
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angelito
Honorable
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proud father of a princess
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posted April 07, 2010 12:53 PM |
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Quote:
I hardly see how it is damning to have differnt denominations withing Christianity. Most of the differences are relatively minor. Is that also a damning indictment against "Scince" since all scientists don't agree on everything?
I dare say not all atheists have the same opinions about everything either, so I guess the indictment falls on their heads asa well.
But neither scientist nor atheist believe in ONE book. If there is ONE book, there is ONE way. You either ARE allowed to marry (as a priest) or not. God and Jesus ARE the same person, or not.
And so on.....
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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