|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted April 05, 2010 10:16 AM |
|
|
@ Elodin
Since you couldn't resist answering: just compare the underlined words.
Quote:
Quote:
How would you feel about that?
I know the punishment for refusing to forsake your sin and so do my children. So if on decided to rebel against God and continue to live in sin, I could only say he was sowing to the flesh and of the flesh would reap corruption.
I'll add, that you didn't go on with the question, how your wife might feel. But onwards:
Quote:
And if you can't somehow see that scenario for you and your wife, there doubtlessly ARE parents facing the same situation; what would brother Elodin advise his brothers/sisters in such a situation, when they were desperate and wanted to know how to deal with their children?
All a parent can do for a child who is living in sin is pray for them and try to council them.
Now, where is the bloody love, God, Jesus, and yourself are so darn full of? Instead of feeling something, you justify and rationalize. And look at the Italics: again I ask: where is the bloody love God, Jesus, and yourself are so darn full of? "Pray for them and try to council them?" What about love and forgive them? Not in your book of feelings and deeds?
It's strange, but it just confirms one again the suspicion I have for a mighty long time: Only very few of those whose lips are full of God, and Jesus, and their unending love for everyone and our duty to love everyone and especially their enemies, know what they are talking about. The rest is much too absorbed with making sure that nothing so potentially dangerous, subversive, demanding, and human as love may stand between them and a life of eager and righteous obedience to God's iron laws, lest they put eternal life in God's loving embrace on the line and risk to be on the wrong end of God's loving wrath.
Because, you see, IF, IF this Jahwe was indeed a god of love, and a god of love especially for His creatures and creations, then NO ONE would have to be afraid of God's wrath for just loving and forgiving their children and not denying them for having sinned.
Women and mothers know more about that, Elodin, and that's why your He-God and Father is, for a supposedly perfect being, lacking a hell of a lot, especially in the love department: the mother and HER idea of love.
Of course this won't stop you from raving on, calling everyone a liar who doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of everything. Well, don't let yourself stop by an infidel, atheist, socialist anti-Christian who believes in the idea, that people should have the bloody guts to stand for and defend the people they love, instead of washing their sissy hands off of it: the very foundation, supposedly underlying their God(s) and their faith.
Thanks for your time again, and I wish everyone a happy Easter.
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 12:47 PM |
|
|
Quote:
All lives belong to God. God has a right to do as he wills.
First, Egypt had murdered Egyptian male children to keep the Jewish slave population in check.
Second, Pharoh repeatedly refused to free the Jews even as the judgements through plagues got worse and worse. The final plague caused Pharoh to free the Jews.
Third, God warned Pharoh of each coming judgement before it happened.
Egypt finally reaped what it had sown. It refused the way out given by God to simply free the Jews.
And finally, the Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were spared the effects of the plagues.
I.e. God, according to the bible, have done acts of evil.
Quote:
All lives belong to God. God has a right to do as he wills.
I understand this as: If you've the power, then whatever you do, that which you do, is right in the eyes of everyone.
Quote:
First, Egypt had murdered Egyptian male children to keep the Jewish slave population in check.
No acts of evil justifies an act of evil. The point is, the use of power as stated by the bible was unnecessary, because God could as well have freed the jews without placing vengeance through killings.
I would like to include that in the matter of God, killing can never be a self defense, because God have the power to solve any situation without needing to kill.
Quote:
Second, Pharoh repeatedly refused to free the Jews even as the judgements through plagues got worse and worse. The final plague caused Pharoh to free the Jews.
I understand this as: If someone doesn't agree with you, it is okay to use force upon them, eventhough that amount of force may not have been needed in the first place.
You should watch power rangers, they take the, proportional force to the extreme of risking innocent lives, this scenario takes it to the other extreme of removing innocent lives.
Quote:
Third, God warned Pharoh of each coming judgement before it happened.
I understand this as: It is not okay to kill/torture someone, unless you make threats about it first, which makes it okay.
Quote:
Egypt finally reaped what it had sown. It refused the way out given by God to simply free the Jews.
And finally, the Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were spared the effects of the plagues.
I understand this as: If you don't agree with me, it's okay for me to measure up a level of vengeance, from a total random measure, and if you happen to agree with me, you'll be spared.
It's tyranni. It's following God because of fear, not because of agreement, it's following God or die.
We talked earlier about the subject that the bible does not make the God both all powerful and truely good. Here is exactly such an example.
Here clearly an example where the jews are freed and no egyptian blood is spilled would be good, whereas believing because someone does wrong, you can do as well, is evil. Which I believe kind of proves that point.
Quote:
There is no justification for a human to kill a baby
No. There is no justification for anyone to kill anyone.
Quote:
Every life belongs to God.
Which is the main problem with your belief system. Imagine if the system of world order where christianity as the bible suggests. Basicly, according to the way I understand what you just wrote, it says: Your life belongs to God. Any system that suppresses its citizens are in my opinion clearly inferior to a system that doesn't.
No life belongs to God.
Just because you're in power does not make your doings good by definition. Clearly the acts of Gods aren't of any absolute moral good, simply, because even people in this random spot on the internet disagree with it.
Quote:
The life of the baby does not belong to the mother.
I agree. However the environment the baby requires to survive belongs to the mother. The mother decides if she'll let the baby stay in that environment. Can the baby survive outside, the mother of course have no saying, can the baby not, then the life of the baby is at the mercy of the mother.
What decides if the baby can survive outside or not, is not nature as how we're born, but the technology we've developed.
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
Azagal
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Smooth Snake
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 04:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Well, one thing is clear: Christian "love" has a strange face if the attitude of a certaoin Christian here is anything to judge it by.
It isn't. Is that so hard to believe?
____________
"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 04:23 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
I know the punishment for refusing to forsake your sin and so do my children. So if on decided to rebel against God and continue to live in sin, I could only say he was sowing to the flesh and of the flesh would reap corruption.
I'll add, that you didn't go on with the question, how your wife might feel. But onwards:
My feelings are what I stated. Of course I would grieve if one of my children were so foolish as to willfully rebel against God.
I would also grieve if one of my children became a murderer and the courts sentenced him to death. But I would know the sentence is just.
My wife and I are both Christians and would feel the same way.
Now a question for you. One of your children becomes a murderer. Let's say for sake of argument your country has the death penalty for murder. Your child is sentenced to death for the murders he committed, and he is on tape killing three people in a bank robbery. Would you get up in the judge's face, yell at him, and tell him how evil and unjust he is? Would you yell and scream at the judge's children and tell them what a wicked father they have for following through on what the law says would be done to murderers?
Quote:
Quote:
All a parent can do for a child who is living in sin is pray for them and try to council them.
Now, where is the bloody love, God, Jesus, and yourself are so darn full of? Instead of feeling something, you justify and rationalize. And look at the Italics: again I ask: where is the bloody love God, Jesus, and yourself are so darn full of? "Pray for them and try to council them?" What about love and forgive them? Not in your book of feelings and deeds?
Your statements do not make sense and seem to be an attempt to provoke me. You asked what I would do if one of my children was living a gay lifestyle. I said pray for them and council them.
You accuse me of not having love for my child in that case, but your statements are not at all logical. If I did not love my child I would not pray for them or council them.
You accuse God of not loving, too, but again, you have provided no evidence of scuh a false claim. It is not wrong of God to set rules on how mankind should behave.
God's "bloody love" is indeed bloody. He began to exist as a man, let himself be insulted, slapped around, and tortued to death by men. That showed his love.
Quote:
It's strange, but it just confirms one again the suspicion I have for a mighty long time: Only very few of those whose lips are full of God, and Jesus, and their unending love for everyone and our duty to love everyone and especially their enemies, know what they are talking about. The rest is much too absorbed with making sure that nothing so potentially dangerous, subversive, demanding, and human as love may stand between them and a life of eager and righteous obedience to God's iron laws, lest they put eternal life in God's loving embrace on the line and risk to be on the wrong end of God's loving wrath.
You have done one of those indirect insults that Angelitto warned about. I hope the moderators will deal with those who are not heeding their warning rather than shut down religiouis discussion. I recall that you are one of the poeple in the past who wanted religious discussion shut down and any reference to the Bible banned. It makes me wonder if this is what you are trying to do in continuing to post in such a manner.
Quote:
Because, you see, IF, IF this Jahwe was indeed a god of love, and a god of love especially for His creatures and creations, then NO ONE would have to be afraid of God's wrath for just loving and forgiving their children and not denying them for having sinned.
Errrrrrr....I would love my child no matter what he had done. If he became a murderer and was sentenced to death I would love the child but hate what he had done. I would also not be angry at the judge for imposing the penalty the law has stated for murder.
I've never in my life heard of any Christian being afraid to love a sinning child. I think you have some pretty bizzare beliefs about Christians.
Christians love everyone and our children of course we especially love our kids.  If you are impling that God requires Christians to hate sinners, of course you are clearly wrong. God says to love everyone and do good to all.
Quote:
Luk 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Quote:
Women and mothers know more about that, Elodin, and that's why your He-God and Father is, for a supposedly perfect being, lacking a hell of a lot, especially in the love department: the mother and HER idea of love.
I've sorry, but your provocative language is not making any sense to me. I also wonder if you really think women love more than men do. I don't think that women are more loving than men and find your remarks sexist.
Quote:
Of course this won't stop you from raving on, calling everyone a liar who doesn't agree with your personal interpretation of everything. Well, don't let yourself stop by an infidel, atheist, socialist anti-Christian who believes in the idea, that people should have the bloody guts to stand for and defend the people they love, instead of washing their sissy hands off of it: the very foundation, supposedly underlying their God(s) and their faith.
I'm trying to have a calm and rational discussion. I'm not going to respond to your provocation and insults with anthing that could be consider an insult.
Oh, and could you point out where I said I would wash my hands of a gay child? I said no such thing. I said I would pray for and council them.
Quote:
I.e. God, according to the bible, have done acts of evil.
Your statments are not true. A judge is not evil for imposing a sentence for breaking the law. God is the judge of the world.
Quote:
The point is, the use of power as stated by the bible was unnecessary, because God could as well have freed the jews without placing vengeance through killings.
God gave the Egpytians the choice to free the Jews or to be judged. They chose to be judged.
Quote:
I understand this as: If someone doesn't agree with you, it is okay to use force upon them, eventhough that amount of force may not have been needed in the first place.
Uhhhhh. The Egyptians were told 10 times to free the Jews. Each time they refused to release the Jews they were judged. I don't understand your problem with this.
Quote:
Quote:
Third, God warned Pharoh of each coming judgement before it happened.
I understand this as: It is not okay to kill/torture someone, unless you make threats about it first, which makes it okay
It is more like someone continuing to commit the same crime over and over again and receiving punishments from the courts that are progressivelyl worse each time he is convicted.
Quote:
Quote:
Egypt finally reaped what it had sown. It refused the way out given by God to simply free the Jews.
And finally, the Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were spared the effects of the plagues.
I understand this as: If you don't agree with me, it's okay for me to measure up a level of vengeance, from a total random measure, and if you happen to agree with me, you'll be spared.
It's tyranni. It's following God because of fear, not because of agreement, it's following God or die.
We have a fundamental differnce of opinions. I don't think people have a right to commit evil and never be judged by God for it. Just as I don't belinve a rapist has the right to go around raping and not face punishment by human courts.
Quote:
Quote:
There is no justification for a human to kill a baby
No. There is no justification for anyone to kill anyone
All lives belong to God.
Quote:
Just because you're in power does not make your doings good by definition. Clearly the acts of Gods aren't of any absolute moral good, simply, because even people in this random spot on the internet disagree with it.
This particular little part of the internet has a small cliche of anti-theists and is not representative of the general population. The anti-theists try to disrupt all serious religious discussion and really, in my opinion, seldom have anyting of merit to add to a spiritual discussion.
Most people are theists and do believe God has a right to judge. Atheism is a very tiny part of the population and anti-theism is a tiny part of atheism.
God is good. God is all-knowing. God is both God and man and is in a perfect position to judge man.
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 04:38 PM |
|
Edited by Moonlith at 16:39, 05 Apr 2010.
|
Quote:
This particular little part of the internet has a small cliche of anti-theists and is not representative of the general population. The anti-theists try to disrupt all serious religious discussion and really, in my opinion, seldom have anyting of merit to add to a spiritual discussion.
And obviously because there is a majority for a particular belief that automaticly places truth in it? /sarcasm.
And in my opinion, likewise, religious people seldom add anything of merit to a spiritual discussion.
Note that religion =/= spirituality.
Quote:
Most people are theists and do believe God has a right to judge. Atheism is a very tiny part of the population and anti-theism is a tiny part of atheism.
And history has clearly proven that truth by majority is a valid argument! Just like how the majority once thought the earth was fla-- oh wait. Sorry, I guess you just made a very stupid comment. Oh dear, how will you ever live through this shame! Hm, I guess not very different from how you've lived your entire life so far; denial and a false sense of pride.
Quote:
I think God is good if he exists. I think God is all-knowing. I think God is both God and man and is in a perfect position to judge man.
The bolt parts are my additions to correct your statement. You shouldn't state believes as facts, it looks very dumb.
____________
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 05:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
A judge is not evil for imposing a sentence for breaking the law.
That argument only works when the judge doesn't create the law himself. If the judge knowingly creates bad law, then judges people accordingly and enforces his judgements - then he is evil.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 05:24 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 17:25, 05 Apr 2010.
|
Quote:
God gave the Egpytians the choice to free the Jews or to be judged. They chose to be judged.
Quote:
Uhhhhh. The Egyptians were told 10 times to free the Jews. Each time they refused to release the Jews they were judged. I don't understand your problem with this.
Your statements are not true. God murdered every firstborn, including children of the slaves. The Bible explicitly says so. The problem is Egypt was not a democracy - some Egyptians didn't "choose to be judged" or "refuse to release the Jews". That's a lot of innocent babies of innocent people. Were they not children of God too? "All lives belong to God" does not mean God was just, it simply means he had the power to do it.
But God had already committed genocide before: "The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time. The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth — men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air — for I am grieved that I have made them." (Genesis 6-7)
Father knows best.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 05:51 PM |
|
|
Quote:
My feelings are what I stated. Of course I would grieve...
Sorry, Elodin, too late. You didn't state any feelings.
Quote:
My wife and I are both Christians and would feel the same way.
Maybe, maybe not.
Quote:
Now a question for you. One of your children becomes a murderer. Let's say for sake of argument your country has the death penalty for murder. Your child is sentenced to death for the murders he committed, and he is on tape killing three people in a bank robbery. Would you get up in the judge's face, yell at him, and tell him how evil and unjust he is? Would you yell and scream at the judge's children and tell them what a wicked father they have for following through on what the law says would be done to murderers?
I have a daughter, but of course my child must be "he", right?
This is a good example. I would yell at no one; but I'd try and save her LIFE, because death is such a final thing. I'm sure, by the way, YOU would do the same: because if she lives she has time to repent and save her immortal soul.
Same with god. She may have done wrong - but there is no wrong worth an eternity of suffering. And THAT is a fact.
Not to mention I just talked about being gay. That you come up with murdering three people is telling.
Quote:
Your statements do not make sense and seem to be an attempt to provoke me...
You accuse me of not having love for my child in that case, but your statements are not at all logical. If I did not love my child I would not pray for them or council them.
Nothing to add here. Speaks for itself.
Quote:
You accuse God of not loving, too, but again, you have provided no evidence of scuh a false claim.
How can you bring evidence to a colour-blind that something is red?
Quote:
You have done one of those indirect insults that Angelitto warned about. I hope the moderators will deal with those who are not heeding their warning rather than shut down religiouis discussion. I recall that you are one of the poeple in the past who wanted religious discussion shut down and any reference to the Bible banned. It makes me wonder if this is what you are trying to do in continuing to post in such a manner.
Well, you must feel helpeless, if you turn to the mods. Anyway, you are a liar. I said, that you should be allowed to make a religiously motivated argument JUST ONCE in a non-religious discussion, because you cannot discuss them. It's just a metter of belief.
You are getting really cheap now. What do you think why I ignored you these last months?
Quote:
Errrrrrr....I would love my child no matter what he had done.
Errrrr, I just asked what you'd do if he/she was GAY. Strange. For the rest, Mvass, made the remark.
Quote:
I've never in my life heard of any Christian being afraid to love a sinning child...
Christians love everyone and our children of course we especially love our kids... God says to love everyone and do good to all.
yeah, yeah, sure. Except they only SAY SO!
Quote:
I've sorry, but your provocative language is not making any sense to me.
I'm not astonished.
Quote:
I'm trying to have a calm and rational discussion. I'm not going to respond to your provocation and insults with anthing that could be consider an insult.
Quote:
Oh, and could you point out where I said I would wash my hands of a gay child? I said no such thing. I said I would pray for and council them.
In fact you even refused to accept the example; you suddenly were talking about my and your children MURDERING. If that's not telling, nothing is.
|
|
william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 05:54 PM |
|
|
You're doing a good job of "ignoring him these days", Jollyjoker. Good job mate. 
This whole discussion is just futile and the sooner everybody realises that, the better.
____________
~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 06:32 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 18:35, 05 Apr 2010.
|
@ Moonlith
I was warned for calling someone's statement moronic so I assumen you calling mine stupid and dumb fall in the same catagory.
Quote:
And obviously because there is a majority for a particular belief that automaticly places truth in it? /sarcasm.
Huh? The claim was made that because some people on this board disagree that God is good that that makes him not good or moral. Aside from that being a totally illogical statement in itself I merely stated that fact tha the majority of the population is not atheist and that the majority of those who are atheists are not anti-theists.
Quote:
Sorry, I guess you just made a very stupid comment. Oh dear, how will you ever live through this shame! Hm, I guess not very different from how you've lived your entire life so far; denial and a false sense of pride.
Perhaps you would consider ceasing your insults and responding iun a more civil manner.
Quote:
The bolt parts are my additions to correct your statement. You shouldn't state believes as facts, it looks very dumb.
My post was correct. It is impossible for you to know that I do not know that God exists and that he is good.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
God gave the Egpytians the choice to free the Jews or to be judged. They chose to be judged.
Quote:
Uhhhhh. The Egyptians were told 10 times to free the Jews. Each time they refused to release the Jews they were judged. I don't understand your problem with this
.
Your statements are not true. God murdered every firstborn, including children of the slaves. The Bible explicitly says so
Your statment is false. The Bible never says that God murdered anyone. The Bible says that God makes the laws and carries out the punishment for beaking the laws.
Quote:
The problem is Egypt was not a democracy - some Egyptians didn't "choose to be judged" or "refuse to release the Jews".
Sorry, bu they did chose to be judged. I quoted an instance where some Egyptians heeded Moses and escaped judgement.
Quote:
Were they not children of God too?
No, not in the spiritual sense.
Quote:
But God had already committed genocide before:
Sorry, but judges don't commit genocide when they pass a sentence. Noah preached for around 120 years before the flood came. The people had ample time to repent. God is not obligated to tolerate sin.
However, a good example of genocide can be found by examining the actions of atheist tyrants such as Stalin, Pol Pot, and Mao.
Quote:
Quote:
My feelings are what I stated. Of course I would grieve...
Sorry, Elodin, too late. You didn't state any feelings.
Sorry, JJ, but in order to state my feelings I don't have to begin the sentence with "I feel that." I don't know anyone who always begins a sentence in that manner when stating their feelings.
Quote:
Quote:
My wife and I are both Christians and would feel the same way.
Maybe, maybe not.
I know my wife, you don't. You statement is false.
Quote:
there is no wrong worth an eternity of suffering. And THAT is a fact.
God views sin more seriously than you do. God is right, you are wrong.
Quote:
This is a good example. I would yell at no one; but I'd try and save her LIFE, because death is such a final thing.
Yet you are "yelling" at God for the carrying out the judgements he has warned about.
Quote:
That you come up with murdering three people is telling.
Do you think that only you can ask questions?
Quote:
How can you bring evidence to a colour-blind that something is red?
You continue to insult me.
Quote:
Well, you must feel helpeless, if you turn to the mods.
No, I want the COC to be enforced with equity on every poster.
Quote:
Quote:
I've never in my life heard of any Christian being afraid to love a sinning child...
Christians love everyone and our children of course we especially love our kids... God says to love everyone and do good to all.
yeah, yeah, sure. Except they only SAY SO!
It is sad that you continue to slander Christians.
Quote:
In fact you even refused to accept the example; you suddenly were talking about my and your children MURDERING. If that's not telling, nothing is.
Your statement is false. I answered your question and then asked you a question.
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 07:38 PM |
|
|
Quote:
My post was correct. It is impossible for you to know that I do not know that God exists and that he is good.
Of course  You are 'special', you can 'feel' God. How foolish of me!
Seriously though, if you really think that, you should call a shrink. It aint normal dewd.
____________
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 07:55 PM |
|
|
Well, Elodin, I directed a post to you that said (and excuse when I quote myself):
Quote:
please check the following easy and personal scenario. You don't need to answer me; I'd just like you to think about this.
...
I repeat, it's not my intention to discuss this - I don't think, there is much to discuss. Anyway, you may just think about it for a couple of seconds, before you dismiss it.
Thanks for your time.
In between, where the three points are, I just asked a couple of questions. There was absolutely no reason to answer them or part of them, but you did, and I commented.
I won't continue this, because it seems you feel insulted when I tell you, what I conclude from your answers. Moreover, it's utterly useless at that, because I can't even make you stop and quitly THINK for a minute.
I wish you and especially your family all the best, but please understand that I cannot find any sympathy in me for your vision of an afterworld and an ultimate reality.
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 07:56 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 19:58, 05 Apr 2010.
|
Quote:
Your statment is false. The Bible never says that God murdered anyone.
Obviously our definitions of killing an innocent baby differ. In my book it's murder, in your Book it's justice if God commits it. Let's agree to disagree.Quote:
Sorry, but judges don't commit genocide when they pass a sentence.
Stalin had his judges commit genocide. Laws were passed and trials were held. No defense, no appeals and the sentence was often death - innocent or not. Sounds familiar?Quote:
Sorry, bu they did chose to be judged. I quoted an instance where some Egyptians heeded Moses and escaped judgement.
And I quoted an instance that no Egyptian family was spared the tenth plague. When they heeded Moses they saved their livestock from the hail, but they were not able to save their firstborns. Again, Egypt was not a democracy. Slaves and their children were not able to choose to free the Jews - they were slaves themselves. However, they were punished as well. What was their crime, being Egyptian?
God could have killed Pharaoh and his army. God could have freed the slaves of Egypt too. But that's something a loony leftist would do, I guess. God chose to kill their babies.
Father knows best. If your children disobey you, should you kill them? "Then Judah said to Onan,'Lie with your brother's wife and fulfill your duty to her as a brother-in-law to produce offspring for your brother.' But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so whenever he lay with his brother's wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from producing offspring for his brother. What he did was wicked in the LORD's sight; so he put him to death." (Genesis 38:8-10) Onan committed no crime, he simply disobeyed, he was "wicked". So much for parental love.
I know, "All lives belong to Stalin God."
____________
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 08:13 PM |
|
|
Quote:
The claim was made that because some people on this board disagree that God is good that that makes him not good or moral.
I believe you're refering to what I wrote.
In that case, it is likely, based on this quote, that you did misunderstand it.
What I wrote were that I understand a given moral, such as if baby rape/murder is wrong or not, to be absolute only if everyone would agree on that moral. Your claim that most people find something to be morally justified, may or may not be true, but it does not make it an absolute moral as I understand the term.
Which sadly, in my opinion, goes for all your latest reply to my previous post, not related to the raised concern, or just to say, irrelevant.
Though I am not eager to continue debating with you, I'd like to quote you, to show that you yourself wrote baby rape to be wrong as an absolute moral, and that as I wrote most of us agree with it, you decided to call me an atheist.
Quote:
Quote:
Most of us probably agree that baby rape from the perspective of the baby (and those who loves it) is wrong, but most is not all, which mean the statement, baby rape is wrong, is not logically something that can be seen as an absolute moral.
I love how atheists have to defend baby rape as not necessarily being immoral.
And no, I am not an atheist, and no I don't say that baby rape is not being immoral from my perspective, I merely write that it may not be immoral from everyones pespective, thereby, not making it an absolute moral, as I understand the term.
And you did actually prove that yourself in this latest discussion, as you did not find anything wrong, when God killed all those babies.
Also, though you replied before, you seemed to not reply to what Mvass wrote, which I think really shows the important message of why your analogies with real life judges doesn't work out well. That is, God is not only the judge as we understand it in our three way system of power, with each instance independent of eachother, no God is all those 3 at once, which means God is not only the judge, but also the executioner and the law maker.
I have earlier tried to show why the idea of death penalty can never be right from the idea of seeing society like a community and see how society would never accept any community to judge anyone to death no matter how justified it may be.
One can go both ways, as seing society as a community in the eyes of someone with more power, like a superior alien civilization, or seeing the given community as a society from the perspective of the one being judged upon.
The same, I believe, can be used here, with the example of God, simply meaning, that power alone may make actions possible, but it doesn't make them right.
Also, you did not reply, why would it not be better (more good) to simply free the jews without harming the egyptians, and without giving the egyptians the possibility to reimprisoning the jews?
Likewise, I don't understand, how you justify your knowledge. From what I've read from you, this is the impression I've got:
You believe the bible is true, because the bible claims to be the word of God, and you believe the bible is the word of God, because the bible claims to be true. [I.e. neither statement makes the other more likely]
However you'd not believe in any other book, which would do exactly the same form of convincing (through evidence and logic), because the bible already claims those to be false. Not to mention, such a book, if I understood you correct, apparently cannot exist.
[I.e. it's not about doing the right thing, but worshipping the right one]
And finally, I believe you've wrote (or maybe it was someone else?) that you've been in some kind of contact with God, that God have talked to you, which you somehow could feel.
[Yet, you're not ready to believe those feelings are a result from a somewhat random environment interacting with your body resulting in a feeling, that you are interpretating wrongly.]
The point is, anyone can have enough power to convince you, it's just a matter of changing the right chemicals in the brain, i.e. reducing free will, but just because you're convinced, it does not make it God, even if it claims to be God.
If God existed, God could overcome that power, but that does not mean God would decide to do so.
After all, from your own acknowledgement of the baby killings in Egypt, it is pretty clear that God cannot be both all-powerful and good.
Either God is not powerful enough for a better solution (thinking it up, or be able to make it), or God is (or at least were) not good.
Which brings me back to what I wrote in one of my very first posts. The question of Gods existance, is not really that interesting, because God is unmeasureable, which mean one can never know if God exists or not, which makes the question rather obsolete.
However about the question of God, as told by the bible, it is often rather easy to show contradictions and false statements, which means it is rather easy to show that many claims of many different religions are not very well justified.
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 08:26 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Quote:
My post was correct. It is impossible for you to know that I do not know that God exists and that he is good.
Of course You are 'special', you can 'feel' God. How foolish of me!
Seriously though, if you really think that, you should call a shrink. It aint normal dewd.
It is unfortunate tha you continue to hurl insults.
For reference, below is exactly what I said. It is a completely normal statement.
Quote:
God is good. God is all-knowing. God is both God and man and is in a perfect position to judge man.
You had no issue with OhforfSake saying that God is not good because some people think he is not good. But strangly you called my statment dumb.
Quote:
Stalin had his judges commit genocide. Laws were passed and trials were held. No defense, no appeals and the sentence was often death - innocent or not. Sounds familiar?
Yes, it sounds rather like other atheists who have risen to power, such as Lenin, Pol Pot, and Moa to name some to the more prominent ones.
God knows all and judges from the viewpoint of one who is both God and man. His judgement is just.
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry, bu they did chose to be judged. I quoted an instance where some Egyptians heeded Moses and escaped judgement.
And I quoted an instance that no Egyptian family was spared the tenth plague.
Yes, and they are to be blamed for not responding to the porphet of God and freeing their slaves. They could have asked Moses how to prepare for the passover but they chose not to.
I can't hink of a single instance in the Old Testament when God did not send a prophet before he brough judgement. When the people repented, they were spared.
Quote:
Father knows best. If your children disobey you, should you kill them?
People who are not obeying God are not his spiritual children.
Furthur, the father/child analogy only goes so far.
Make your choice if you want to rebel against God or follow God. Chosing is your right.
____________
Revelation
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 09:32 PM |
|
|
My issue is not with God as judge but with God as lawmaker. Sure, a judge should follow the law and judge accordingly, even if the law is bad. But when that same judge also makes bad law, then it's quite different.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 10:14 PM |
|
|
Quote:
OhforfSake saying that God is not good because some people think he is not good.
False
Quote:
OhforfSake saying that God is not good in the eyes of everyone because some people think he is not good.
Corrected
Quote:
OhforfSake saying that God is not good because some people think he is not good God decides to limits others freedom unnecessary.
Corrected
____________
Living time backwards
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 11:17 PM |
|
Edited by Vlaad at 23:18, 05 Apr 2010.
|
Quote:
People who are not obeying God are not his spiritual children.
I see. What does your church teach about Hell? What will happen to those who have not accepted Christ as their savior?
|
|
Cepheus
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Far-flung Keeper
|
|
posted April 05, 2010 11:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Make your choice if you want to rebel against God or follow God.
False dilemma, anyone?
____________
"Those who forget their history are inevitably doomed to repeat it." —Proverb, Might and Magic VIII
|
|
Moonlith
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
|
|
posted April 06, 2010 01:22 AM |
|
Edited by Moonlith at 01:28, 06 Apr 2010.
|
Quote:
For reference, below is exactly what I said. It is a completely normal statement.
Quote:
God is good. God is all-knowing. God is both God and man and is in a perfect position to judge man.
Nope. It is a 'factual statement' that is not based on any facts whatsoever. It is based on what is written in a book that can't be proven to have been written by God him/her/it-self, and the people's mutated interpretations thereof. And thus, it is not a fact and cannot be written in a way that implies it is factual.
Hence, it is not a normal statement, but a false one. That doesn't mean it can't be true, but untill it is -proven- you cannot state it as a fact. And the more you uphold it is alright to state it like that, the dumber you look.
I have no illusion you will understand this, but I figured I should correct you on this. It's the right thing to do. I'm being generous here, I'm pointing you to mistakes so you can correct them. Isn't that nice?
In fact, I'm so nice and generous, I wouldn't be surprised if people thought of me as the reincarnation of Jesus ***ing Christ.
*Smiles charmingly*
____________
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
