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Shyranis
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 04, 2010 04:30 AM |
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Edited by Shyranis at 04:35, 04 Apr 2010.
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Quote: When anti-Christians are pressed on arguments it is unfortunate that they usually resort to lies.
Could you link to a reputable source that says Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, Lenin, and the other athiest dictators actually were not atheists and demanded that people worship them? Thanks.
I'm not anti-Christian, though it does seem perhaps some others in the discussion are. Others may be questioning their own faith perhaps to find the real answers and bring themselves closer to the god they believe in. We all have our reasons for examining. I for one find your answers interesting, hence I challenge you with probing (though not insulting) questions. Too bad no everybody has been as civil. Everybody involved knows who they are. But we all have a justly given freedom to say what we wish. Let common courtesy sort the mice from the humans.
On to the sources. And yes, Wikipedia is a source.
Stalin.
Quote: The most famous aspect of Stalin's Russia was the Terror. This grew from his paranoia and his desire to be absolute autocrat, and was enforced via the NKVD and public 'show trials'. It developed into a centrally-enforced 'cult of Stalin-worship', and a terrifying system of labour camps - 'the gulag'.[/quote
In general: Cult of Personality.
Quote: Throughout history, monarchs were almost always held in enormous reverence. Through the principle of the divine right of kings, rulers were said to hold office by the will of God. Imperial China (see Mandate of Heaven), ancient Egypt, Japan, the Inca, the Aztecs, Tibet, Thailand, and the Roman Empire (see imperial cult) are especially noted for redefining monarchs as god-kings.
The spread of democratic ideas in Europe and North America in the 18th and 19th centuries made it increasingly difficult for monarchs to preserve this aura. However, the subsequent development of photography, sound recording, film and mass production, as well as public education and techniques used in commercial advertising, enabled political leaders to project a positive image like never before. It was from these circumstances in the 20th century that the best-known personality cults arose.[/url]
and
Quote: During the peak of their regimes, these leaders were presented as god-like and infallible. Their portraits were hung in homes and public buildings, with artists and poets legally required to produce only works that glorified the leader. Other leaders with such cults include Siad Barre of Somalia. The term cult of personality comes from Karl Marx's critique of the "cult of the individual"
Also see
Political Religion. Essentially ideologically based cults that try to displace religions with their own living gods.
Pol Pot:
I've explained how my family suffered at his hand first-hand.
Let me tell you, this man was no Athiest. He worshiped the land and the uneducated and demand that everybody try to be as close to a simpleton as possible. No matter what you read, you can't remove the slave tattoos from my parents. Pol Pot was a retard who thought he was his god's greatest servant. He committed a bigger genocide (population percentage-wise) against his own people than Stalin and Hitler combined. Trust me though, my family knows the snow well. He killed a lot of us.
Mao:
Quote: Mao's figure is largely symbolic both in China and in the global communist movement as a whole. During the Cultural Revolution, Mao's already glorified image manifested into a personality cult that influenced every aspect of Chinese life. Mao was regarded as the undisputed leader of China's working class in their 100-year struggle against imperialism, feudalism and capitalism, which were the three-evils in pre-1949 China since the Opium War. Even today, many Chinese people regard Mao as a God-like figure, who led the ailing China onto the path of an independent and powerful nation, whose pictures can expel the evil spirit and bad luck.
Quote: The Cult of Mao proved vital in starting the Cultural Revolution. China's youth had generally been raised during the Communist era, which had taught them to idolize Mao. The youth also did not remember the immense starvation and suffering caused by Mao's Great Leap Forward, and their thoughts of Mao were generally positive. Thus, they were his greatest supporters. Their feelings for him were of such strength that many followed his urge to challenge all established authority.
Lenin:
The preserved his body forever for all to see and worship... is there no further need of proof? Perhaps he himself was atheist and had the mantle of godhood thrust upon him by others then. Which in that case would mean he is indeed an accurate example of an absolute non-theist.
The "Other Athiest dictators":
Kim Jong-il/Kim Il Sung are worshiped as gods that created the world and nothing existed before Kim Il-Sung.
They even have a name for the religion as catalogued on this religious website Juche.
Nicolae Ceauşescu:
Quote: Romania's political power structure in the 1980s, which was a cult of personality surrounding Nicolae Ceauşescu and his wife, Elena Ceauşescu. Nicolae Ceauşescu rose to power in 1965, but by 1971 the regime had reasserted its Stalinist legacy in socioeconomic and cultural matters. Ceauşescu was increasingly portrayed by the Romanian media as a creative communist theoretician and political leader whose "thought" was the source of all national accomplishments. His tenure as president was known as the "golden era of Ceauşescu." In the 1980s, the personality cult was extended to other members of the Ceauşescu family, including his wife, Elena, who held a position of prominence in political life far exceeding protocol requirements. By the mid-1980s, Elena Ceauşescu's national prominence had grown to the point that her birthday was celebrated as a national holiday, as was her husband's.
Robert Mugabe:
Quote: Robert Mugabe, the founder of modern Zimbabwe and its prime minister and later its president since 1980, has clung desperately to power, utilizing his cult of personality as a potent weapon and tolerating no criticism. His devoted followers still accept, unquestioningly, everything he says, while critics are demonized as agents of British imperialism. Meanwhile, the country has devolved into desperate poverty and rampant inflation.
Oops, sorry, he's a false Christian, not an Athiest.
Quote: Except no one can quote a New Testament verse that says to kill unbelieers. Anti-Christian liars just love to claim it can be justified.
IMHO, the Old Testament should probably just be removed from bibles with exception to the creation and the en commandments. It basically cuts out most of the stuff anybody would twist around, right?
Perhaps people need to take a break from this thread. Some need to cool their heads a little.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 04, 2010 08:06 AM |
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Quote:
EDIT: Well I think Elodin is insulting people pretty much all the time, I dunno how many times he's called people liars...
Ad hominem... really ruins the discussions...
I call people liars when they lie about me or about Chrisitanity/the Bible. I have proven the things that they are saying about the Bible wrong quite a few times so they are not merely mistaken, they are liars.
The fact is the anti-Christian love to use strong language about Christians/the Bible, ect, but they can't take it when someone uses strong language in return.
Quote: This is the kind of stuff that happens in the christian name. the Religion itself is not bad, but some of the followers are some of the worst people in existance. horrific acts of wanton destruction have been done in it's name.
That is not true, because the people committing evil deeds are not following the teachings of Christianity.
When a religion teaches one to love others and do good to them and they do the opposite it is moronic to blame the rligion.
Quote: Alone, frightened, hurt, hated by her own family, because some man with a book told the congregation that she was a witch!
I have already proven from the Bible that Christians don't hate and that Christians are not authorized to punish any sinner for any sin, other than disfellowshipping a person who is living in sin while claiming to be a Christian.
Quote: Well, one thing is clear: Christian "love" has a strange face if the attitude of a certaoin Christian here is anything to judge it by.
Some people have a stange idea of love. Love is not being Mr. Milktoast. Jesus spoke gently to the honest people who were seeking the truth but spoke very harshly to liars who liars who had no interest in the truth.
Quote: Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Quote: Now, for me it's pretty easy. From their deeds you shall know them. The Bible says, god loves everyone. However, his deeds don't fit with that statement, some of his reported deeds, at least.
Ergo, the Bible LIES about something, either about God's love or about God's deeds
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It is truly unfortunate that anti-Christians have nothing but lies to spout.
It is moronic to say God does not love everyone when God himself became a human being and let men slap him around, pull his beard out, press a crown of throns into his brow, whip him with a cat of nine tails, and nail him to a cross in order to sacrifice his human life for them. Yes, it is truly moronic indeed to claim that such a God does not love everyone.
So yes, JJ, even though you constanly lie about the people of God, the Word of God, and God himself, God loves you.
@Vlaad
The plagues were against all the gods of Egypt. The children are with God.
If you actually care about what it all mean you can refer to the below link.
Against all the gods of Egypt
@Shyranis
All I see from teh links is the atheist tyrants "had the big head." Not htat they believed themselves to be gods and demanded that others worship them.
And certainly the Marxists don't believe in God and claim relgion is an opiate of the people. Stalin enforced shools to teach children to ridicule religion, and specificly targeted Christians for mruder, made the Bible illegal, and burned down many churches and confiscated church property. Stalin had the goal of wiping out religion from the USSR within 5 years, that is in a previously posted link. He enlisted the aid of the League of Militant Atheists to murder religious people.
Now, like I've said many times before, most atheists are not bad people and would not condone the murder of religious people. But atheists can't distance themselves from teh atheists who have committed attrocities and yet point their bony judgemental and hypocritical fingers at theists and clami religion is the root of all evil.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted April 04, 2010 11:20 AM |
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@ Elodin
Only because you do not use the direct way to insult people ("you are moronic"), but use an indirect way ("it is mornoic to say..."), it still stays an insult.
Take this as a warning.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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phoenixreborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted April 04, 2010 02:10 PM |
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A Buddhist friend is trying to convert me. A Baptist friend once tried to convert me. I'm going to set them up with each other and see who switches.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
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posted April 04, 2010 07:04 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 19:06, 04 Apr 2010.
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Quote: @Vlaad
The plagues were against all the gods of Egypt.
How do you understand "I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt"? Did God show that Egyptian gods didn't exist or that he was more powerful?
Anyhow it was an interesting read, but irrelevant to my question. In other words, how do you understand "absolute morals"? Killing innocent babies is OK if God does it? Absolute morals do not apply to God? As in "don't do as I do, do as I say"?Quote: The children are with God.
What does your church teach about the soul? For example, I'm familiar with Orthodox Christianity, which says that the soul goes to a temporary paradise ("Abraham's Bosom") until the Judgment Day.
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Adrius
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Stand and fight!
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posted April 04, 2010 07:18 PM |
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Quote: The fact is the anti-Christian love to use strong language about Christians/the Bible, ect, but they can't take it when someone uses strong language in return.
U-huh, you don't think it'd be better to, you know... set a good example by not using insults?
Anyway, my earlier question is still unanswered.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 04, 2010 11:03 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:23, 04 Apr 2010.
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Quote: @ Elodin
Only because you do not use the direct way to insult people ("you are moronic"), but use an indirect way ("it is mornoic to say..."), it still stays an insult.
Take this as a warning.
Ok, if it is an insult to call an idea moronic, idiotic, irrational, delusional, ect, I assume anti-theists saying religious ideas are delusional, irratinoal, ect, are insults as well. All I want is an equal playing field.
And it also makes me wonder why you have not issued warnings to people who implied I am a child molester and other slandering things as well but I'll assume you are now going to be more active in moderating the board and applly the same interpretation of the COC to everyone equally. Now basicly all we can say is "that is not true" or "I disagree" then?
Quote: How do you understand "I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt"? Did God show that Egyptian gods didn't exist or that he was more powerful?
He is showing them that their gods don't exist.
Quote: Anyhow it was an interesting read, but irrelevant to my question. In other words, how do you understand "absolute morals"? Killing innocent babies is OK if God does it? Absolute morals do not apply to God? As in "don't do as I do, do as I say"?
All lives belong to God. God has a right to do as he wills.
First, Egypt had murdered Egyptian male children to keep the Jewish slave population in check.
Second, Pharoh repeatedly refused to free the Jews even as the judgements through plagues got worse and worse. The final plague caused Pharoh to free the Jews.
Third, God warned Pharoh of each coming judgement before it happened.
Egypt finally reaped what it had sown. It refused the way out given by God to simply free the Jews.
And finally, the Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were spared the effects of the plagues.
Quote: Exodus 9:19-21 (New International Version)
19 Give an order now to bring your livestock and everything you have in the field to a place of shelter, because the hail will fall on every man and animal that has not been brought in and is still out in the field, and they will die.' "
20 Those officials of Pharaoh who feared the word of the LORD hurried to bring their slaves and their livestock inside. 21 But those who ignored the word of the LORD left their slaves and livestock in the field
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Quote: Anyway, my earlier question is still unanswered.
Quote: If I would be a christian, and I would murder someone (which apparently renders me non-christian) and then confess my sins to a priest, am I forgiven and made christian once again?
Sorry if this has been answered before, I'm finding it hard to find any answers between all the insults in this thread...
I have answered it at least several times in this thread alone.
The Bible plainly states that any man who says he knows God but hates others is a liar. The Bible plainly states that any man who murders or hates does not know God.
Christians do not hate. Christians do not murder.
Quote: 1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Edit:
Quote: What does your church teach about the soul? For example, I'm familiar with Orthodox Christianity, which says that the soul goes to a temporary paradise ("Abraham's Bosom") until the Judgment Day
.
The spirit of a child or believer goes directly to be with God since the ressurection and ascension of Christ. Before that they went to "Abraham's bosom."
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted April 04, 2010 11:12 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:18, 04 Apr 2010.
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Quote:
Quote:
U-huh, you don't think it'd be better to, you know... set a good example by not using insults?
Anyway, my earlier question is still unanswered.
Oh, I could quote very very very many DIRECT insults against me by several anti-thiests. Here is only one very recent example.
Quote: You, my friend, are a hypocrit in extreme, a proud and bold liar, an eloquent troll who has now resorted to cheap appeals to sympathy. an Ignorant and bigoted fraud with no sense of honour or dignity
Anti-theists/Anti-Christians have always been free to insult me in any way they see fit. Moderators, it seems, only step in to defend the rights of the anti-theists not to have their ideas called moronic or delusional but it has seemingly been ok to call theistic ideas delusional or moronic and I could quote moderators of this board who have made that or similar statments.
Furthur, the majority of what the anti-Chrisitans post is only done to provoke.
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Revelation
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Vlaad
Admirable
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ghost of the past
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posted April 04, 2010 11:25 PM |
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Quote: All lives belong to God. God has a right to do as he wills.
This is all that needs to be said. God can order not to murder but he can murder innocent babies of innocent people (i.e. firstborns of Egyptians slaves). Your justification would make sense if God murdered the Pharaoh or his priests and soldiers. The Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were NOT spared the effects of the plagues. You quoted only Exodus 9:19-21, which deals only with the hail, but no Egyptian parent - guilty or not - was spared of the tenth plague, The Plague of the Firstborn. There was no place to hide your baby: "At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt [...] and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead."
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted April 04, 2010 11:38 PM |
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Yeah, that's why Christians kill, and lovingly, like their father.
Elodin, I'm ignoring you these days, but please check the following easy and personal scenario. You don't need to answer me; I'd just like you to think about this.
So, God is the big father and loves us all and such. Having gay sex is a grave sin, and the way I interpret God's word gay people will end in hell, if they don't repent. Fine.
Now, if I remember right, you are a father yourself. You have children. And of course you are married, so your children have a loving mother.
Now, suppose, just suppose, one of your children - or greatchildren - would, as a grown-up, admit to be gay. I know, what the "right" reaction is: of course, you love your gay child, but you hate the sin. So it's natural, that you'd try and make him or her understand the error of him or her ways and to make him or her change them.
Let's keep in mind, that God would obviously give him or her a lifetime to repent and change ways, but if he/she didn't it were the deep forge for a mighty long time for him/her.
How would you feel about that?
I mean, you are a father as well; would you avert yourself from your child as well, eventually (like God))?
If you wouldn't, because as a father you love your child, why would God, when he's supposed to love his children?
If you would, why? I mean, your child is your child, gay or not, isn't it?
Likewise, how would your wife (and his/her mother) feel about it?
How would you or your wife deal with the knowledge that your son/daughter would probably go to hell?
And if you can't somehow see that scenario for you and your wife, there doubtlessly ARE parents facing the same situation; what would brother Elodin advise his brothers/sisters in such a situation, when they were desperate and wanted to know how to deal with their children?
In times of dire need - don't children need the support of their parents?
Wouldn't you stand in for your children and ask God to have mercy?
And what God would end up closing his ears before those pleas?
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I repeat, it's not my intention to discuss this - I don't think, there is much to discuss. Anyway, you may just think about it for a couple of seconds, before you dismiss it.
Thanks for your time.
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Adrius
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Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted April 04, 2010 11:50 PM |
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Quote: Oh, I could quote very very very many DIRECT insults against me by several anti-thiests. Here is only one very recent example.
I didn't deny any of the insults directed at you.
I just figured that since you're complaining about people insulting you and your religion all the time, the least you could do is not do the same to them. Show them that you are above that.
But you'd rather fight fire with fire huh?
Quote: Christians do not hate. Christians do not murder.
Fair enough, I see where my post was mistaken. I apologize.
Anyway, I found the answer to my post by using the awesome power of Google instead. No need for further discussion.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 05, 2010 05:03 AM |
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Quote:
Quote: All lives belong to God. God has a right to do as he wills.
This is all that needs to be said. God can order not to murder but he can murder innocent babies of innocent people (i.e. firstborns of Egyptians slaves). Your justification would make sense if God murdered the Pharaoh or his priests and soldiers. The Egyptians that heeded the words of Moses were NOT spared the effects of the plagues. You quoted only Exodus 9:19-21, which deals only with the hail, but no Egyptian parent - guilty or not - was spared of the tenth plague, The Plague of the Firstborn. There was no place to hide your baby: "At midnight the LORD struck down all the firstborn in Egypt [...] and there was loud wailing in Egypt, for there was not a house without someone dead."
No, murder is when there is no justification for taking a life. All lives belong to God.
As I showed, the Egyptians who heeded Moses were spared the results of the plague. Whether any Egyptians heeded Moses for the last plague, we can't be sure. I think some did however, because some Egyptians went with Moses out of Egypt when they left.
Yep, the Egyptians were warned 10 times to let the Jews go and they did not and God brought more and more judgement on them until they let the Jews go.
Quote: Yeah, that's why Christians kill, and lovingly, like their father.
I've already proven Christians don't murder. It would be nice if you would stop making false statments about Christians.
Quote: How would you feel about that?
I know the punishment for refusing to forsake your sin and so do my children. So if on decided to rebel against God and continue to live in sin, I could only say he was sowing to the flesh and of the flesh would reap corruption.
Quote: And if you can't somehow see that scenario for you and your wife, there doubtlessly ARE parents facing the same situation; what would brother Elodin advise his brothers/sisters in such a situation, when they were desperate and wanted to know how to deal with their children?
All a parent can do for a child who is living in sin is pray for them and try to council them.
Quote: I just figured that since you're complaining about people insulting you and your religion all the time, the least you could do is not do the same to them
I have not been lying about anyone. And it is not an insult to call a person who continually lies a liar.
I don't care what opinion anyone has about me or Christianity as long as they don't lie about either.
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Vlaad
Admirable
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ghost of the past
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posted April 05, 2010 06:18 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 06:19, 05 Apr 2010.
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Quote: No, murder is when there is no justification for taking a life.
There is no justification for killing a baby. You have argued yourself that raping a baby is always wrong - how can killing a baby be any different? You can kill in self-defense or to save others. But killing a baby is always a murder. If a man does it, that is. God can kill babies because "all lives belong to God". Quote: Whether any Egyptians heeded Moses for the last plague, we can't be sure. I think some did however, because some Egyptians went with Moses out of Egypt when they left.
I have quoted the part from the Bible that says that no house was spared the tenth plague.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 05, 2010 07:05 AM |
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I think it is about time to issue a warning myself. A serious one. If discussions can not be civil, then there will be no more discussions. Don't bother with the "It's not me, its them" or "I just want an even playing field" or yada yada. Its simple really, this is a game forum, not a sandbox. I don't care if you have polite discussions, but this bull has got to stop. I'll give it a week, then if nothing has improved, I will shut it down. Then any other relgious debate that pops up after it, and penalize the person who makes the thread.
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Message received.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 05, 2010 07:48 AM |
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Quote: There is no justification for killing a baby.
There is no justification for a human to kill a baby unless it is to save the life of the mother. Every life belongs to God. The life of the baby does not belong to the mother.
Lots of Jewish babies were being murdered by the Egyptians to control the slave population. God's final judgement put an end to Egyptian oppression of the Jews as they freed the slaves after that.
Quote: I have quoted the part from the Bible that says that no house was spared the tenth plague.
OK, so none of the Egyptians harkened to Moses for the final plague. They should have freed their personal slaves and asked Moses what to do.
Quote: I'll give it a week, then if nothing has improved, I will shut it down. Then any other relgious debate that pops up after it, and penalize the person who makes the thread.
Rather than punish everyone perhaps you should consider penalizing those who chose to not heed the warning. I can think of three people who have the stated goal of shutting down all religious discussion. It would be a shame if they can misbehave and cause that to happen.
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 05, 2010 07:51 AM |
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You act like it is all one sided, and it is not. I will keep an eye out, and if people start making more trouble, will deal with it then. I tried to let everybody just fight it out, but it got out of hand. Everything has been discussed ad nauseum, and nobody is actually listening, so I see no point in having a discussion if nobody is actually discussing.
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Message received.
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william
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LummoxLewis
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posted April 05, 2010 07:58 AM |
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I've been following this thread but not posting since I don't really like the idea of my post being quoted to death by a certain person, but I do agree that this needs to be shut down. In fact it should never have been created again in the first place. You saw what happened to the first thread so why did some of you think it wouldn't happen again?
And Elodin, quoting from the bible is futile and fighting fire with fire (like Adrius said but you ignored) is not the best of ideas. You claim people insult you every single post, so why do you do the same? Rise above it and at least try to post constructively instead of just insulting back.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
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Mytical
Responsible
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Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted April 05, 2010 08:03 AM |
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Because Will, there is a difference between a Debate, and this. We hoped for a debate, and what we got was nowhere even close to an actual debate. The few people who actually try to debate are drowned out by the people who thump their chests, hold their ears and just keep talking. When you go into a debate, you have to keep an open mind. Only a few here have even TRIED to have an open mind..so there IS no debate. Just a bunch of people yelling at each other how ONLY they can be right.
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Message received.
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william
Responsible
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LummoxLewis
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posted April 05, 2010 08:04 AM |
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This is exactly what happened to the other thread though. You must have had some common sense to at least know that why would it be any different really? lol
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted April 05, 2010 09:45 AM |
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Let's just say I hoped it would turn out all right with all the participants given a fresh start, in a thread where you can't go to a post made a year ago and start quoting.
Silly me
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We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
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