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| Thread: Obama gets Nobels' Peace Prize! |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Corribus
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posted October 20, 2009 05:46 PM |
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@Blizz
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I'll once again post who I think could have been a better pick. What do you think?
I already suggested Mortenson a page ago, in response to JJ's challenge to find someone qualified. Conveniently, JJ never responded. Mortenson would have been a fantastic choice to win the award, but the selection committee instead decided to play politics and turn the Peace Prize into a laughable sham.
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angelito
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posted October 20, 2009 06:59 PM |
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So you agree with the Bush (and Obama) policy? That it is other country's right and business to move in and forcefully instill a government that suits our personal sensibilities? If that is so, then I don't have anything to add, since I assumed you didn't agree with this.
So then tell me why America invaded into NAZI germany even though Germany never attacked any american force until that point?
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In my opinion, it's not other countries jobs to move in and create a government to their fitting. These things have to evolve and happen on their own.
Yes, I think it was GOOD the USA came to Germany in WW2 and forced the country to create a democracy. It would probably NEVER had happened on its own.
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Africa is full of countries that would be disgusting by the typical Westerner's standards; that doesn't mean we invade them, occupy them, and forcefully create a new government. Such thinking is not far off from the "White Man' Burden" mentality during the colonial years.
I agree there are some countries in Africa where there should be implemented a democracy. Dictatorship isn't the right way to lead a country. And if too many people have to suffer, we can't turn around and look away. Sudan is on top of that list. And of course it has nothing to do with black and white.
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As to what would happen if the U.N. abandoned Afghanistan: I think a tyrannical regime would rise up and take control of the country, which is exactly what the country was like beforehand.
Exactly. That's why Osama Bin Laden found a good place to rise his power. That's why Afghanistan is world leader in cultivating opium and sending it out to the world
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More polarizing. I never said Bush created a great attitude; I explicitly said he was a very poor president.
This isn't polarizing at all. I may be allowed to quote yourself:Quote:
Bush was a very poor president, agreed, but he used plenty of diplomacy and discussion
And this colored part is the reason why I asked for examples. I can't remember ONE case where Bush used diplomacy to solve an important problem. And i said "great attitude", because being a good diplomate is something very very difficult and only few people around the world are great in doing so. One great examples in American history is Henry Kissinger (imho).
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I think it's obvious Bush understood the use of diplomacy to a certain extent based on the fact that he didn't turn the entire Middle East into a war zone.
I don't get that. He was diplomatic because HE didn't turn the ME into a war zone?
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Pakistan remains a sovereign nation that has relatively good relations with the U.S., despite the great pressure between itself and the U.S. in the later half of Bush's term as it tried to pursue Al Qaeda members within it's borders.
So you think if Bush wouldn't have been diplomatic, Pakistan wouldn't be a sovereign country anymore? But part of the USA? or part of what other country?
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And what childish comment is that?
It's the truth. Your post is steeped in exaggerations. It's not like he went around and shoehorned everybody and anybody.
I thought it was quite obvious I was talking about his attitude towards people/nations/countries he had problems with. I was never talking about his attitude against the whole world
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By the way, what do you think? Obama or this guy? I'm sure there are other great candidates too; I'm just using the first good one I heard of.
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Greg Mortenson, a former army Medic and mountaineer, has made it his mission to build schools for girls in places where opium dealers and tribal warlords kill people for trying. His Central Asia Institute has built more than 130 schools in Afghanistan and Pakistan - a mission which has, along the way, inspired millions of people to view the protection and education of girls as a key to peace and prosperity and progress.
I think this guy did an outstanding "job", there is no question about it. But I think this work should be rewarded different, because I have to ask: What has his action to do with peace in the world?
Helping minorities and people who suffer is extremely important and should always be respected by all of us. But "peace" is something different. Imagine how many millions of dollars Bill Gates spends every year for health care projects. Be it for cancer reasearch, alzheimer etc... Will he ever get a NOBEL PEACE prize for that?
Doing good should be rewarded. Period.
But as I said earlier...if a commitee comes to the conclusion a guy like ARAFAT, the former leader of the PLO should be rewarded with the nobel peace prize, a guy like Obama deserves it at least twice.
Just some comments about former winners:
1996 -> Carlos Filipe Ximenes Belo (East-Timor)
For his efforts to find a peacefull solution to the Timor-China conflict
What happened there last year? China sentenced 30 people who have been arrested during the protets to death 2 weeks ago.
2000 -> Kim Dae Jong (South Korea)
For his work to bring south and north korea closer together again. And where are those 2 countries 9 years later?
2002 -> Jimmy Carter (USA)
For his efforts refering to democracy and human rights
Where? What country changed into a democracy due to his actions?
2003 -> Shirin Ebadi (Iran)
For her efforts refering to democracy and human rights
There are human rights in Iran?
2 guys even recieved the prize for the same achievement in differen decades:
1984 -> Desmond TUTU (South Africa)
For his efforts refering to the end of the APARTHEID
1993 -> Nelson MANDELA
For his efforts refering to the end of the APARTHEID
Where is the sense behind that?
Only a few examples of rewarded people who got the prize for their efforts...and which helped nothing or not much in the end.
I have to admit I do not now every story behind all the nominees. There may be a few people who would deserve this prize aswell, no doubt. But saying Obama is rewarded for NOTHING is just not true.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 20, 2009 07:05 PM |
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So then tell me why America invaded into NAZI germany even though Germany never attacked any american force until that point?
Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy both Declared war on US in turn of US declaring war on Japan, so that gives the US a perfect reason to attack them 
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angelito
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posted October 20, 2009 07:08 PM |
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So then tell me why America invaded into NAZI germany even though Germany never attacked any american force until that point?
Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy both Declared war on US in turn of US declaring war on Japan, so that gives the US a perfect reason to attack them
Bin Laden attacked the USA and Afganistan (Taliban) allowed him to hide in their country.
Where is the difference?
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Doomforge
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posted October 20, 2009 07:27 PM |
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Why the difference is big. If I bomb a building in US and hide in, idk, Uganda, is this a reason to attack the whole country? just to get my sorry hide or punish them for allowing me to hide on their territory?
It should be classified as independent action, really... Meaning it's ridiculous to declare a war against another country because of it.
On the other hand, Nazi Germany officially declared war. It's different. It's not like they sent Goebbels to bomb the Statue of Liberty and then allowed him to hide on their ground.
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blizzardboy
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posted October 20, 2009 07:58 PM |
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@Angelito: The U.S.'s largest naval base was bombed and U.S. convoys started getting torn apart in the Atlantic as well. It's hard not to get involved when your ships are getting sunk, and WWII examples are kind of extreme since not even Napoleonic France matches up to it. And to clarify: I support the initial invasion of Afghanistan. Doomforge's example is flawed because the Taliban government was willingly harboring Al Qaeda, so a military attack was needed, not just some covert operations.
But that's where my support ends. Because the U.N. then got involved with a long-term occupation and expensive nation building, and trying to bring modern Western ideals to Afghanistan is needless to say a pretty enormous culture shock: not surprising it's proving so difficult. All of the major axis powers were already industrialized, 1st world nations, so having them revert back to a more benign government after the war wasn't terribly difficult. It quickly became openly embraced. The U.S. maintained a strong presence even after western Germany was installed, but remember there was still uncertainty over the Soviets at the time.
Although it's interesting you bring this up, because what continues to exist in Germany to this day? U.S. bases. Another part of long-term occupation where it is no longer necessary, and really the money could be better spent elsewhere.
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Doomforge
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posted October 20, 2009 08:03 PM |
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It wasn't any argument. I just answered angelito's question: what's the difference  I'm not really taking sides in this conflict as both sides (US and Islamic) have their reasons to behave how they behave.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 20, 2009 08:26 PM |
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Bin Laden attacked the USA and Afganistan (Taliban) allowed him to hide in their country.
Where is the difference?
Offical Declarations of war have nothing in common with someone hiding in a country.
Once again, Hitler was Elected so at the time he was to be considered the offical head of the country, whereast Bin laden was not a head of any country, Mussolini was made prime minister, so he had the most of the offical power aswell.
Once again, Taliban did not attack US, Al qaida did.
Had Hitler been hiding in Swizerland the US sure wouldn't have gone there and bombed them to hell.
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blizzardboy
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posted October 20, 2009 08:32 PM |
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Osama bin Laden was/is the head of Al Qaeda; doesn't mean he's the sole goal.
Switzerland also would have allowed access to the country to let people pursue Hitler, if not undergoing the task themselves. If Hitler escaped at the end of the war with a network of terrorist followers and Switzerland was willingly harboring them, I have no doubt in my mind that neither the Allies or the Soviets would have had any issue invading Switzerland.
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Darkshadow
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posted October 20, 2009 09:01 PM |
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Swizerland could technicaly have relied on their neutrality business, (am not sure if Netherlands willingly keeping Kaiser Willhelm II is a good example since he was royalty, but I just had to mention that).
Commanders of the assault plans believed that the terrorist network (not just al qaeda mind you, but taliban and all others) would have collapsed with Bin Laden.
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blizzardboy
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posted October 21, 2009 12:06 AM |
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Well harboring an active war criminal would have destroyed Switzerland's long-standing neutrality, as it would for anybody. And remember that for the analogy to be solid, he would have to be an active terrorist with an active network. Escaped war criminals that are just trying to hide away aren't the same. Hirohito was the 2nd biggest fish in the Axis, and he was left alone and died of old age in '89. Again, probably for diplomatic reasons since he was the beloved Emperor, and killing him would have really torn apart fresh relations.
To steer the thread back on course, I don't think people that continue and expand the occupation of countries deserve Peace Prizes, even if he may end up doing some good elsewhere (ending the Cuban embargo would be nice).
I have the feeling I've beaten this to death, so I'll let whoever respond and leave it at that unless something new gets brought up.
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Rarensu
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posted October 21, 2009 05:08 AM |
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You all do not care a penny about foreign countries. All you see (and care about) is USA!.
There is human life OUTSIDE of North America! I promise!
The American Empire is collapsing. The new center of power and prosperity will be Asia. I have been around and spoken to many and this is my conclusion.
I intend to move to Singapore or thereabouts directly after finishing my education.
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Rarensu
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posted October 21, 2009 05:15 AM |
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Edited by Rarensu at 05:16, 21 Oct 2009.
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In my opinion, it's not other countries jobs to move in and create a government to their fitting. These things have to evolve and happen on their own.
Yes, I think it was GOOD the USA came to Germany in WW2 and forced the country to create a democracy. It would probably NEVER had happened on its own.
Careful, Angelito. Hitler was elected.
EDIT: NM this has already been pointed out.
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Rarensu
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posted October 21, 2009 05:25 AM |
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Osama bin Laden was/is the head of Al Qaeda; doesn't mean he's the sole goal.
The only evidence linking bin Laden to 9/11 is a single videotape which is probably a forgery.
Furthermore, there is very little evidence of any kind that Al Qaeda even exists. Most people simply assume that it does because the politicians claim so.
Why shouldn't we believe that the whole thing is a false-flag operation?
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Shyranis
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posted October 21, 2009 05:34 AM |
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Hirohito was the 2nd biggest fish in the Axis, and he was left alone and died of old age in '89. Again, probably for diplomatic reasons since he was the beloved Emperor, and killing him would have really torn apart fresh relations.
Also (so says my Japanese family) he was really just a puppet, with the Generals using him as a figurehead but having the real power to themselves much like the Shoguns of Medieval Japan. Which is also what they tried to style the country as a modern version of with disastrous results. That's what military power does when it is the primary driving force of a country. Like the Junta in Myanmar (formerly Burma).
Terrible really. There were a lot of fanatical war criminals in World War 2.
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Doomforge
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posted October 21, 2009 11:13 AM |
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The worst part is that history likes to repeat itself.
Rarensu, why not moving to New Zealand ?  at least you'll be spared the monsoon climate which is pretty awful.
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angelito
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posted October 21, 2009 12:48 PM |
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Careful, Angelito. Hitler was elected.
I know he was elected. But not as a dictator, but as chancellor. Chancellor isn't the highest political power in germany . It wasn't in the 1930ies, and it isn't nowadays. But he then changed many political procedures, claimed himself chief of this and that. There was no opposition anymore. Other parties were just forbidden later on.
How many elections have happend in Germany AFTER 1933?
So without the ALLIES invading Germany, Hitler wouldn't have lost his power until his death, I'm pretty sure. And with Hitler, there wouldn't have been any more elections or a democracy at all.
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angelito
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posted October 21, 2009 12:50 PM |
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Why the difference is big. If I bomb a building in US and hide in, idk, Uganda, is this a reason to attack the whole country? just to get my sorry hide or punish them for allowing me to hide on their territory?
Bush clearly stated, that everyone who gives those terrorists a place to hide, lends them a hand will be treated the same as terrorists.
If you "knowingly" hide a murderer in your house, you can be sure you will end in prison aswell if you get caught, don't you think so?
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TheDeath
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posted October 21, 2009 05:28 PM |
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The American Empire is collapsing. The new center of power and prosperity will be Asia. I have been around and spoken to many and this is my conclusion.
I intend to move to Singapore or thereabouts directly after finishing my education.
What about Europe?
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blizzardboy
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posted October 21, 2009 05:31 PM |
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So without the ALLIES invading Germany, Hitler wouldn't have lost his power until his death, I'm pretty sure. And with Hitler, there wouldn't have been any more elections or a democracy at all.
Other nations invaded in order to destroy an enemy, not to bring democracy to a non-democratic country. If Hitler became a dictator and then just sat around, nobody would have invaded Germany, rightfully so.
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