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TheDeath
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posted December 10, 2009 08:54 PM |
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Once you allow minarets you have no argument to prohibit the use of muezzins and if thats OK with you to hear 5 times a day "Allah is big" no matter where you are or you hide, then go for minarets. Nothing about design, but about religion forced intrusion. It quotes also the Turkish prime minister when he says: "Minarets are our weapons and the faithful our soldiers".
I hear and see advertisements all the time, how come they're not banned as well?
When will you drop your bias?
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Salamandre
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posted December 10, 2009 09:02 PM |
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Sure man, allow anything, I am sure TheDeath will handle perfectly all the social conflicts. 
After all, the "why not" always was a viable solution to hide from consequences.
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TheDeath
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posted December 10, 2009 09:04 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 21:05, 10 Dec 2009.
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Actually the connection is more obvious than "anything". You can say that religious dudes preaching are advertising their religion just as a salesman is advertising a product. My point is not to allow or ban everything, but to make them consistent: not one ban, the other allow. Either both banned, or both allowed.
For example, if they (salesmen) are prohibited from entering your home (I'm sure they are) to advertise, then should the religious preachers. It's only fair. And it goes both ways. (this was just an example)
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baklava
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posted December 11, 2009 12:50 AM |
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Edited by baklava at 00:53, 11 Dec 2009.
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@Wolfsburg
This whole matter is probably irrelevant to the topic and I know you didn't mean to insult anyone, I just thought I should point a few things out so that people (along with you) don't memorize some unintentionally wrong info 
The Byzantine Empire was founded in the 4th century (and became the center of Eastern Orthodoxy in the 6th), while the Ottoman one came into existence about 1000 years later. Ottomans assimilated some Byzantine culture into their own (such as turning Hagia Sophia into a mosque) after their conquest of Byzantium in the 15th century, not the other way around. And even so, all of that doesn't have much to do with Arabs since Ottomans (Turks) are a completely different ethnic group. 
Just a bit of general info, of course I'm not insulted or anything... Congrats on the QP and all. ^^
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Wolfsburg
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posted December 11, 2009 02:10 AM |
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 Thanks for the info Baklava, I indeed had a very wrong idea of the origins of byzantine architecture. I somehow had it mistakenly stored in my head that they had an early roman stage and centuries later have incorporated new features from the ottomans. After doing some homework I noticed I was WAY OFF the pulse. Byzantine architecture has indeed very clear stages, but they were developed and improved by the own romans, achieving such results that they would influence the sorrounding cultures.
Just for the record, Im not one of those guys who gets upset when proven wrong. Much on the contrary I usually take the opportunity to read and luckily learn. So feel free to point out my mistakes.
@Salamander
I think its great that you have stopped by to take a look at those links I gave. I also appreciate your opinion on the matter, although I sincerely disagree with it. Eventually we will have the chance to discuss this in depth. Until then, I'll just make clear I dislike and suspect on any rules that are crafted especifically to restrain the liberties of a single group. Many absurds in the past have been perpetrated through such means.
Wolfs
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Salamandre
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posted December 11, 2009 02:22 AM |
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Wolf, in theory I agree with you, it is always nice and generous to just sit there and talk about how free world would look, where every one respects his fellow and the sky always blue. But as one who migrated in France 20 years ago and saw every month over and over the impossibility to integrate a specific racial group and all the difficult problems raised by consequences, I can only say: Do everything you can to restrict this group liberties, by ALL means. Otherwise, you will lose yours in no time. Teach them what is your country law in the hard way. Don't give me logic or moral arguments because it will not work until you see how we live HERE now. In fear because nothing were done when it had to be.
I checked your links carefully, now please check MINE and look till the end, to see how it looks our everyday in FRANCE. Sorry for Liveleak link but those videos are prohibited in France, because they show what it must NEVER be seen.
MORE
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TheDeath
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posted December 11, 2009 04:35 AM |
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Teach them what is your country law in the hard way.
What, discrimination?
I still wonder how much it will be until you encourage western nations to carry out bombings of muslim civilians -- you know, to teach them "the hard way" of their terrorism. I mean, gotta keep their attitude and all.
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Salamandre
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posted December 11, 2009 05:02 AM |
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No matter what side you choose, it will always be some sort of discrimination. Thats why philosophers and poets never could give a working picture of how a society should function, because they can't choose a side, they are contemplating.
Now if you care about muslims civilians being bombed, you can start a thread about Israel and accuse it from being a criminal state. Which is it. But expect to be called by all names and accused of discrimination from the opposite side this time.
Unfortunately the world does not listen to the justice or moral laws, but to the military/economical power one proves. As always did, it is just that today all this is hidden under hypocrite diplomacy and the "political correct" attitude. And what is the religion about today? About being free to pray a god and feel its body inside you? Look at Elodin's posts: all is about acquiring power, negate/criticize the law and finally replace it by YOUR law. If you can read through the lines, and skip the "love everyone" part which is only powder in the eyes.
And believe me, that "ultimate" law, as word of God/Allah will be thousand times more radical and destructive than the democratic laws you negate today.
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baklava
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posted December 11, 2009 01:53 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 13:55, 11 Dec 2009.
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So by looking at Elodin, you determined that all religion and religious people are about power abuse and warmongering?
Isn't that a bit like his arguments about atheists being evil cause Stalin was an atheist? 
Perhaps you need to be introduced to different people from different religions before generalizing like that... There's a reason all those philosophers and poets won't join either side.
Now about that metro fight video...
There's quite a bit of hooligans, brawls, fights, gang murder and other crap here too. And guess who starts most of them - us, native Serbs. Most fights that start over here are caused by Serbs clubbing other Serbs in front of other Serbs, preferably if they cheer for the opposite team or godforbid opposite ideology.
Everyone's about how, say, gypsies are a problem (since they're the largest minority in the city), but pretty much every brawl I ever witnessed was about us natives.
And we're not even Muslims.
Maybe one of the reasons is that cops are always eager to get in full armor and intimidate students protesting for something, or harass me for drinking a beer in the middle of the street at midnight with my mate, whereas none would ever - EVER - show up if a dozen skinheads conducted boot-to-head collision research on me.
It's probably different in France though, but I can't see whether those guys on the video were Muslims...
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Salamandre
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posted December 11, 2009 02:14 PM |
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I am far away from generalizing, but as I explained in the religion thread, the faith is something intimate and personal and does not fit with demands and forced decisions. So when I see it aggressive I tend to oppose myself to anything it tries to force me to do or accept.
In the video, the only french you can see are the victims and the...policeman. Thats our everyday in France. It easily changes one's opinion about immigration and discrimination, making somehow superfluous all correct and nice discussions and urge to act.
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Lexxan
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posted December 11, 2009 06:35 PM |
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@ Baklava: most of the brawls and riot in France (as well as over here) are caused by Immigrants. The main reasons why in Serbia the fights are caused by Serbians rather than immigrant is because there aren't many immigrants in Serbia IIRC. And also, minorities like the gypsies usually don't occupy themselves with fighting and running amok. It's not really their lifestyle/Culture/Whatever.
The clashes between Immigrants and Locals in Western-European countries like France or Switserland are cultural clashes. Both parties cling onto their own culture, morals and values, and the other side has not feeling with them and vice versa. Assimulation would solve a lot of those problems, as would MUTUAL respect. (Yes, they too must show respect towards our culture, as most of us local do currently)
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Wolfsburg
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posted December 11, 2009 07:17 PM |
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When I first rolled Salamander's clip I was curious to see what big surprise would come to help me rethink my political position. When the brawl kept going I started thinking to myself: nope, thats going to be it, they will just punch and abuse everyone around.
When the clip was over I thought to myself: does Salamander really think I just have to witness more violence caused by minorities to change my political position? Could the message really be this naive? Wolfsburg who worked for 6 years in the poorer areas of Rio de Janeiro didnt witness enough raw violence to make his mind, so in order to convince him minorities are dangerous I shall be feeding him some extra raw violence? Sorry. Wrong strategy.
I dare saying that I have seen brazilians that are so damn evil to the bone that make the brawling serbs of Baklava look like frightened kids. I have studied for a short period of time with the forensic team in Duque de Caxias (one of the most violent areas in the sorroundings of Rio). I unfortunately have no footage of the remains of a victim they have shoved alive in a pile of tires soaked in gasoline and set on fire, to repay the neat clip you sent. Even if I did, it would prove nothing.
1 - Its not that Im saying criminals stemming from minorities deserve especial priviledges. They deserve jail and hard punishment like everyone else. What I think its wrong is to craft laws to restrain the rights of a single group that are broadly enjoyed by all other groups. Thats criminal.
2 - Switzerland is not France. The north african and persian gulf muslims are not that of a big subject there, much on the contrary, muslim groups in Switzerland are mostly from the balkans and Turkey. They are a reserved group of people that have only 4 mosques in the whole territory of Switzerland. Its not like they are raiding the land with their fiery doctrine and mindless expansion.
3 - The muslim community of Zürich (the largest in Switzerland) had just commited to a cantonal law in which their religious restrictions were partially overruled, so that both church and state could reach for a consensus. That means for instance that their female children are now oblidged to attend swim-classes, even when fully covered from the neck below, and they have the right to skip school in the final two days of Ramadan, opposite to the whole week, as originally requested, among others.
Thats how real democracy works: dialogue - bilateral decisions - law-adequation. In last case, when laws are abused or ignored, (like the clip you've shown), law enforcement through means of police action.
Salamander, I understand how much you wish for good and peace. You have the heart in the right place. I just think you are wrong when concerning minorities.
Wolfs
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2009 07:53 PM |
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Err, I don't think this is about minorities, at least not in the core.
It's about aggressive ideologies.
To give a very extreme example: if you have a "minority" proclaiming the superiority of whatever, religiously motivated, trying to build really high swastikas all over the place...
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Lexxan
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posted December 11, 2009 07:54 PM |
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Quote:
It's about aggressive ideologies.
It's about Culture as well.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2009 08:03 PM |
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Yeah, what about the Middle and South American cultures? Preatty old, pretty gruesome rites. Tearing out hearts and stuff.
Isn't that culture as well?
I mean, isn't there a dark side of culture?
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Lexxan
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posted December 11, 2009 08:22 PM |
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There's a dark side to everything. The problem is how to deal with it properly.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 11, 2009 08:54 PM |
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Wolfsburg
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posted December 11, 2009 08:57 PM |
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I am with you JJ. This matter is not about minorities, it kipped that way because of a parallel discussion I entered with Salamander.
But the very fact that they ARE a minority is a huge factor to skip. For minorities have a historical tendency not to be able to defend themselves against the will of the majority. This would be a neat example for law school-classes to illustrate the also called "dictatorship-of-the-majority", a phenomenon commonly mistaken for democracy.
We both know if this would be a referendum against the calvinist church, the outcome would be completely different.
And lets get real, in Switzerland they are a rather moderate community. Their minarets have therefore no more to do with pre-incaic rituals than the bells of the protestant church in Bern.
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TheDeath
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posted December 11, 2009 11:18 PM |
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Unfortunately the world does not listen to the justice or moral laws, but to the military/economical power one proves. As always did, it is just that today all this is hidden under hypocrite diplomacy and the "political correct" attitude. And what is the religion about today? About being free to pray a god and feel its body inside you? Look at Elodin's posts: all is about acquiring power, negate/criticize the law and finally replace it by YOUR law. If you can read through the lines, and skip the "love everyone" part which is only powder in the eyes.
And believe me, that "ultimate" law, as word of God/Allah will be thousand times more radical and destructive than the democratic laws you negate today.
Sadly, your target is way off the mark. You don't seem to realize you're not even shooting the thing that you don't want, which is their "laws". How is a minaret a law? How is a minaret aiding in implementing a law? Or are you fearful of the fact that people will choose the "muslim" way out of free will? Isn't that free choice?
You don't want their laws -- perfectly understandable. Go and stop that, what has that got to do with a building on private property?
I don't care how many correlations you see -- how about someone saying, let's nuke all humans on Earth, because without humans there can be no human violence? The correlation there makes just about as much sense as yours.
I mean sure, go and "stop" the evil muslims who want to force you into their religion (ironic: seems more like the opposite at the moment)... could you do this without, eh, "collateral damage" like bombing "personal freedom" and "free choice"? k thx bai.
Because after all, I don't see anyone here advocating muslims to force you into their religion. All I see is you being afraid that people will choose so based on their own will. Most dictators are that way.
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Salamandre
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posted December 11, 2009 11:30 PM |
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When the same guy slaps you in the face every day, you tend to preserve yourself and avoid him after a while. When people who never was slapped advice to you to remain cool, while you was slapped every day for years, you just rool crazy eyes and close your ears and mind. Surviving is more important than debating.
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This thread is pages long: 
