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JollyJoker
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posted December 01, 2009 11:38 PM |
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The trouble seems to be that one human right - religious freedom or the right not to be discriminated because of your religion - seems to collide with another one: the right not to be discriminated because of your gender.
What if a specific religion does discriminate people because of their gender?
The Muslim women in France are not forced to follow their religious creed, and in their eyes, walking down the street in a bikini is immensely offensive and disgraceful to the female gender. If they were being forced to obey X criteria, then yes, it would be discrimination. Are there social pressures within their group to obey their religion? Certainly. But social pressure exists everywhere in every circle; it's the reason people from the same country all tend to agree on a lot of things. But social pressure = / = force.
Blizzard: discrimination because of gender. You know, showing your naked calves, whether you are man or woman. Or even getting fined because showing your naked calves.
If your religion says, no, a woman is not allowed to do X (even though she could), a man is, though, then there is an obvious contradiction between named two rights. Right?
So. Which right to cling to?
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Vlaad
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posted December 01, 2009 11:42 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 23:43, 01 Dec 2009.
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On the other hand, I'm not so sure women in some Muslim countries are allowed to wear whatever they want.
Did you just compare western countries with muslim countries?
The western prides itself in being better: it's high time it actually proved that. No, that doesn't mean "they ban X, allow Y; we ban Y, allow X", that's the same thing, just opposites. Clearly not "better".
Shame.
When it comes to sex segregation, yes, the West is clearly better. That was the context; I had no intention (nor wish) to expand the topic.Quote:
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It's not just xenophobia: again, Turkey banned those too in order to preserve its secularism.
No offense, but Turkey seems awfully close to what Elodin was rambling about as the "atheist tyrants".
It seems so, doesn't it? What is the reasoning behind it though? Why banning minarets in Switzerland? That is the question here.
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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 11:49 PM |
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If your religion says, no, a woman is not allowed to do X (even though she could), a man is, though, then there is an obvious contradiction between named two rights. Right?
So. Which right to cling to?
I don't see what you don't get in here. It's pretty easy. 
There is no contradiction whatsoever. The woman has the rights of the society: if she refuses them and agrees with the religion, it's her business. That religion can say whatever it wants: as long as it doesn't force others without consent, then it doesn't affect others' rights.
If you promote a certain religion, again, and no one is forced to follow it, what is the problem? where are any rights violated?
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Salamandre
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posted December 01, 2009 11:58 PM |
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During 2000 years women accepted being treated as half men (even less?). Oh, they discovered recently that they can think too and do high risk jobs at same rate, you know? But not all of them, obviously. Some are still thinking they have to obey and "honor" religion.
Let's give them the choice in a democracy, and then see the results. But for that, they have first to follow the country they live in laws.
These "I have to do it because it is written in a holy book" is getting really silly. Now give me a valid reason from muslim women's point of view of why the burqa should be wear and I will listen to it carefully.
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TheDeath
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posted December 02, 2009 12:01 AM |
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During 2000 years women accepted being treated as half men (even less?). Oh, they discovered recently that they can think too and do high risk jobs at same rate, you know? But not all of them, obviously. Some are still thinking they have to obey and "honor" religion.
Their choice.
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Let's give them the choice in a democracy, and then see the results. But for that, they have first to follow the country they live in laws.
Oh, you mean to force them to act a certain way? (when they obviously do not force others to be "like them" the way you do)
Yeah. Very freedom indeed!
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These "I have to do it because it is written in a holy book" is getting really silly.
HER CHOICE.
You are a classic example of: "We have free speech. You can say whatever you want, as long as you agree with me."
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blizzardboy
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posted December 02, 2009 12:06 AM |
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@Joker:
The religion condemns X, but it doesn't mean she's forced to follow it, at least in France. In France, to a small extent, she's forced to do the opposite. So no, it is completely feasible to have both.
@Sal: My thoughts mirror Death's. Although I will add that when you persecute an ideology, it tends to make that ideology flourish and become more zealous, not the opposite. So for every ban you add that goes against a certain people's ideology, I guarantee you mount more problems for yourself.
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Salamandre
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posted December 02, 2009 12:07 AM |
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Death:
It is their choice too to remain in their country, being humiliated everyday but keep religious habits if they wish.
Now, they want the butter and the money for it, seems to me. What is forcing them to immigrate?
Stop making wrong analogies, it is about muslims not adapting to their second country laws. We have laws, follow them or leave. Nobody is forcing them to remain, actually it is more the opposite.
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Vlaad
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posted December 02, 2009 12:09 AM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 00:11, 02 Dec 2009.
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what is the problem? where are any rights violated?
Nowhere... yet. That's why the topic turned to Muslim expansion as early as page one.
If a Muslim woman is willingly promoting a religion that upholds sex segregation, she is sticking a finger in the eye of the society she wants to live in, e.g. France or Switzerland - two western countries that support gender equality. Nobody is really hurt, true.
The question here is when you draw the line? In Romania this would be an isolated case, nobody else's business or a matter of curiosity perhaps. But Turkey is always on the edge and has to rely even on its army to protect secularism. Apparently France is too late, now they have to resort to laws that seem xenophobic.
Just for the record, I think Switzerland is too early. Like I wrote in my first post, I think they overreacted. But only time will tell.
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"We have free speech. You can say whatever you want, as long as you agree with me."
...about free speech, yes. No tolerance for intolerance. No free speech for those who deny it to others.
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TheDeath
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posted December 02, 2009 12:12 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 00:13, 02 Dec 2009.
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...about free speech, yes. No tolerance for intolerance. No free speech for those who deny it to others.
you mean speak about denying it to others, which doesn't violate their rights. Don't mix them up.
Then it's not free speech. And I'm talking about the political sense obviously.
Like how in USSR, you can speak whatever you want, as long as you promote communism. (example) Free speech alright!
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JollyJoker
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posted December 02, 2009 12:16 AM |
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I have no idea why you are bold-printing, Death.
a) a non-muslimic woman applies for a high-ranking job in a muslimic led outfit. She's denied due to women are not allowed in leading positions for religious reasons.
b) a muslimic woman applies for the same job in the same outfit and doesn't get the job, because she shouldn't even apply as a muslim.
c) a muslimic woman applies for a leading job in a non-muslimic led outfit and is denied the job because as a muslimic woman she isn't allowed to lead and is therefore not qualified.
d) a non-muslimic woman applies for a leading job in a non-muslimic led outfit and is denied the job because the outfit deals with other muslimic outfits, who for religious reasons won't accept a woman in a leading position. If that's nolt enough the outfit claims the same rights than the other outfits, and if that's still not enough the boss switches to muslim religion.
Still no problem?
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Salamandre
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posted December 02, 2009 12:21 AM |
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Let's not be fooled. Why immigration is over active vs France today?
Cupidity.
Free money from social help, free speech, and everything else coming to personal profit. Till here, I can not judge as I did same, being myself an immigrant (although I was counting on my talents to survive and not on others pity).
Oh, and now, if we could bring with us also all our habits and weird/inadequate Islamic laws then would be perfect. "Don't agree? Racist!".
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TheDeath
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posted December 02, 2009 12:28 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 00:30, 02 Dec 2009.
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a) a non-muslimic woman applies for a high-ranking job in a muslimic led outfit. She's denied due to women are not allowed in leading positions for religious reasons.
If it's private capitalistic business, dare I say they set the rules, the ones in charge of it. That's private property for you.
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Still no problem?
Don't see any. Of course, if the state runs said company, and is muslim, it means it's a muslim country. Which is a moot discussion, as we are talking about a western state.
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Free money from social help, free speech, and everything else coming to personal profit.
I agree. They shouldn't be given free things.
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Oh, and now, if we could bring with us also all our habits and weird/inadequate Islamic laws then would be perfect. "Don't agree? Racist!".
Like I said before, I don't see where they bring their laws, all I see is the laws actually preventing them from practicing what they want, not the other way around.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 02, 2009 12:30 AM |
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@Sal:
If you don't want a pseudo-fascist ideology taking over, I have a very simple suggestion:
Do not let them immigrant.
When you let them immigrant and then start throwing down bans on them, you stir the hornets nest by persecuting them, and frankly, their anger is justified.
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Salamandre
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posted December 02, 2009 01:02 AM |
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Blizzardboy, for France it is too late. Maybe the swiss people learned from that? We are overwhelmed and the government has a hard moment right now. Things look very bad and no solution was found.
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TheDeath
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posted December 02, 2009 01:18 AM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 01:18, 02 Dec 2009.
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Let's put it like this. You're (France government) too soft on those who do break others' rights, and too hard on those who don't. Banning burqas is one example.
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Salamandre
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posted December 02, 2009 01:32 AM |
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TheDeath, I will not discuss a law or another with you. Laws are made by more intelligent people than me or you and they usually take their time and hear both sides. If burqa is prohibited in public institutions there have to be a good reason for that and I have not the knowledge to contest it. If you want to, free to you to do the studies required and become politician if gifted enough.
I also think my comment about burqa wasn't accurate. Burqa is allowed in France everywhere except public institutions, means schools, universities and such. We can't really say muslim are oppressed. They can do everything they want, but not in institutions which are the reflect of a national identity. Small constraint, big smoke.
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baklava
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posted December 02, 2009 01:36 AM |
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I couldn't agree less with that attitude, Sal, but it's your country.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 02, 2009 01:38 AM |
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Blizzardboy, for France it is too late.
Probably.
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Maybe the Swiss people learned from that? We are overwhelmed and the government has a hard moment right now. Things look very bad and no solution was found.
Apparently not. Because letting a bunch of people that are far removed from your way of life to immigrant and then hacking at their civil liberties is not a swell idea. The ban on minarets is a very small deal, but things usually start out small. It could get worse.
Also, as previously mentioned, where you get your Muslims from makes a huge difference. Most Turkish Muslims suck at following their religion, which is a good thing in the eyes of a secularist. Of course, setting cars on fire and forming violent gangs is also against the tenets of Islam, so the North Africans aren't do a swell job either, but they are more loyal in other areas.
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mvassilev
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posted December 02, 2009 01:39 AM |
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Laws are made by more intelligent people than me or you and they usually take their time and hear both sides.
That's absolutely the worst possible attitude to take towards government. It must be examined and questioned at all times. You can't trust it, not one bit.
But anyway, it looks like the minarets got
*puts sunglasses on*
minbarred.
YEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAH!
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Salamandre
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posted December 02, 2009 01:40 AM |
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What are the "civil" liberties you are talking about?
@Mvass, criticizing the government you voted for without rest, and always going against anything it decides is a worse behavior I think. Hopefully we have a democratic system and after 5 years if not happy with, out. But once it was choose I don't see any reason to not follow the ones I voted for, because I got to know their ideas and acts (unless major breakdown, which is not likely to happen in a civilized country).
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