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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 10:55 PM |
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Even for the most extremists, freedom of speech isn't free if it bans things disagreeing with its concept, if you know what I mean.
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Salamandre
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posted December 01, 2009 10:56 PM |
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Quote:
EDIT: I can't believe you actually refused her though. 
TheDeath you are incredible. I would expect from you: "I can't believe she took the risk to being dismissed for a cloth problem" but no, you have always to take the wrong side. As Vlaad pointed, it is not a fashion problem. The girl knew that wearing burka is a provocation and what she risks.
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Geny
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posted December 01, 2009 10:58 PM |
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My post was meant to explain the situation before any anti-cultural laws arise. Meaning that if there are already laws that prevent cultural/religious freedom just for the sake of preventing it, then that country is past the point where it's ok.
(Not referring to any laws in particular here)
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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 10:58 PM |
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If you didn't have that crap law on your side (the one about banning clothing), trust me, you would have lost big time in that trial. So I don't see why I am at fault for "taking side" of fairness.
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Vlaad
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posted December 01, 2009 10:59 PM |
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Edited by Vlaad at 23:51, 01 Dec 2009.
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Like Bliz pointed out, the thing is sometimes the laws limit those rights. It's not only France; Turkey and Tunisia banned hijab, for example. In the words of a Turkish academic: "We say it will damage secularity... Once you do that - we believe you damage democracy".
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Salamandre
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posted December 01, 2009 11:00 PM |
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That's the problem. Burqas don't hurt anybody. They're a type of clothing, and yet they're banned in public places.
So wrong. Do a research to find out WHY burqas are wear only by muslim women and not males. Once you find out, come back.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2009 11:00 PM |
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Even for the most extremists, freedom of speech isn't free if it bans things disagreeing with its concept, if you know what I mean.
Right. People don't have the freedom to violate other people's freedom. Hence why rape is extremely illegal.
But how does wearing a burqa apply to this?
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2009 11:04 PM |
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So wrong. Do a research to find out WHY burqas are wear only by muslim women and not males. Once you find out, come back.
I know Islam rather well; possibly more than most Muslims.
In Islamic law, everything except the face, hands, and feet are considered part of a woman's nudity, hence the hijab is mandatory within their religious practice. The burqa is not required, but it is still admirable.
I fail to see why this means it should be banned. It's not as if women are being forced to wear them by their male counterparts (though sometimes this may be the case). They wear them because they want to uphold their religious requirements, and by doing this, they don't harm other people, except for maybe arousing their xenophobia.
If she was being forced to wear the burqa, she wouldn't have been going to sing in the first place, because females are forbidden to sing in Islamic law.
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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 11:07 PM |
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So wrong. Do a research to find out WHY burqas are wear only by muslim women and not males. Once you find out, come back.
Personal choice.
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Salamandre
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posted December 01, 2009 11:11 PM |
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A law created by males to reduce the feminine identity is prehistoric now. Still they apply it, in a modern society. It is not about religion or xenophobia, but about oppressing the woman rights to agree or disagree.
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Adrius
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posted December 01, 2009 11:11 PM |
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I guess what Salamander means is that the burqa is a symbol of female discrimination.
What do we know? How do we know that a woman wearing a burqa is forced? Maybe she just does it to honour her country/religion?
How does the law know if a woman is forced or if she just wants to wear a burqa?
Now, in my opinion let's let everybody wear whatever the hell they want.
Meanwhile we fight female discrimination (see Geny's post about religion conflicting with the laws of the country) and one day the discrimination-label that the burqa has will be long gone and forgotten, and it'll just be another set of clothing and not a big deal anymore.
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2009 11:14 PM |
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A law created by males to reduce the feminine identity is prehistoric now. Still they apply it, in a modern society. It is not about religion or xenophobia, but about oppressing the woman rights to agree or disagree.
It's irrelevant how prehistoric we think it is. The question is whether she is being forced to wear it (she is not), and whether she is harming anybody or violating other people's liberty by wearing it.
I know you find it hard to believe, but it's not like the several hundred million Muslim women in the world are all being forced to dress the way that they do. Most of them do it because they want uphold the religion that they ardently support. When you forcefully take it away, shockingly, you piss them off.
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JollyJoker
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posted December 01, 2009 11:20 PM |
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The trouble seems to be that one human right - religious freedom or the right not to be discriminated because of your religion - seems to collide with another one: the right not to be discriminated because of your gender.
What if a specific religion does discriminate people because of their gender?
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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 11:23 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:24, 01 Dec 2009.
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A law created by males to reduce the feminine identity is prehistoric now. Still they apply it, in a modern society. It is not about religion or xenophobia, but about oppressing the woman rights to agree or disagree.
????
What do you mean they "apply it"? Are they politicians and forcefully introduced such laws? Are your daughters or wives forced to wear burqas? Not even the muslim girls are forced to -- unless there's an abusive family, in which case, treat the family as abusive, not as "muslims".
The definition of free is that you can speak about its disagreements. Sure, even the USSR was "free" for those who agreed with the system.
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What if a specific religion does discriminate people because of their gender?
As long as it only affects the practitioners, and the practitioners aren't forced to practice it, then what exactly is the problem?
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2009 11:26 PM |
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Quote:
The trouble seems to be that one human right - religious freedom or the right not to be discriminated because of your religion - seems to collide with another one: the right not to be discriminated because of your gender.
What if a specific religion does discriminate people because of their gender?
The Muslim women in France are not forced to follow their religious creed, and in their eyes, walking down the street in a bikini is immensely offensive and disgraceful to the female gender. If they were being forced to obey X criteria, then yes, it would be discrimination. Are there social pressures within their group to obey their religion? Certainly. But social pressure exists everywhere in every circle; it's the reason people from the same country all tend to agree on a lot of things. But social pressure = / = force.
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E-J
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posted December 01, 2009 11:27 PM |
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people are scared of what they don't know. the media gives the people the idea that the islam is nothing more than a big, scary thing that has to be stopped before it ruins our western civilisation. here in the Netherlands we have that idiotic guy called "geert wilders" who takes populism to a whole new level (or should i say depth?)
you've probably heard about him but in most country's his statements are changed by the media, so if you think he's actually a nice guy of what you heard of him, he isnt.
it seems to me every country in europe has got it's own "geert wilders". a extremely populistic person on who no one with a only little bit of common sense would vote, in the last few years. this minaret thing is the result of people who are afraid, who seek a leader to tell them what to do. that moment a person stands up who acts like he is a leader and says things like "all muslims out of the country" and "those minarets grow like mushrooms, away with them!"
if my theory is correct: there is a nationalistic, anti-foriegner, alarmingly similar to the germans just before WW II party with a populistic leader in switzerland.
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Vlaad
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posted December 01, 2009 11:29 PM |
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Guys, ask your mothers, sisters or girlfriends to wear a burka whenever they leave home and see what kind of reponse you'll get.  Seriously though, it's true that it is a matter of choice for many. On the other hand, I'm not so sure women in some Muslim countries are allowed to wear whatever they want. Burka and hijab are symbols of sex segregation in Islam. Saying that those women are honoring tradition actually means they are upholding those values. It's not just xenophobia: again, Turkey banned those too in order to preserve its secularism.
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TheDeath
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posted December 01, 2009 11:34 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 23:36, 01 Dec 2009.
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On the other hand, I'm not so sure women in some Muslim countries are allowed to wear whatever they want.
Did you just compare western countries with muslim countries?
The western prides itself in being better: it's high time it actually proved that. No, that doesn't mean "they ban X, allow Y; we ban Y, allow X", that's the same thing, just opposites. Clearly not "better".
Shame.
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It's not just xenophobia: again, Turkey banned those too in order to preserve its secularism.
No offense, but Turkey seems awfully close to what Elodin was rambling about as the "atheist tyrants".
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blizzardboy
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posted December 01, 2009 11:36 PM |
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Currently, there are no orthodox Caliphates in existence. The Arab nations are the leftover product from the Middle East getting carved apart after WWI.
In a genuine Caliphate, yes, all women would be required to wear the hijab in public, among many other things that I'm not going to go into detail about. But the Muslim women in France are not living in a Caliphate. They are living under a secular system.
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Vlaad
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posted December 01, 2009 11:37 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
The trouble seems to be that one human right - religious freedom or the right not to be discriminated because of your religion - seems to collide with another one: the right not to be discriminated because of your gender.
What if a specific religion does discriminate people because of their gender?
The Muslim women in France are not forced to follow their religious creed, and in their eyes, walking down the street in a bikini is immensely offensive and disgraceful to the female gender. If they were being forced to obey X criteria, then yes, it would be discrimination. Are there social pressures within their group to obey their religion? Certainly. But social pressure exists everywhere in every circle; it's the reason people from the same country all tend to agree on a lot of things. But social pressure = / = force.
Ah, all good points. Again, I think it all comes down to clash of values. Your arguments are valid for Muslim countries, not sure how well they apply to immigrant communities. Naturalization is the focal point of the issue.
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