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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 10:09 PM |
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I'm against guns. I think Americans have a sick relationship with firearms.
I think there is a tremendous amount of negative publicity and outright propaganda about guns. I think most people who are adamantly against guns know nothing about them and are reacting to totally irrational fears that border on phobia.
If you don't like guns then don't get one. If you are afraid of them don't get one. But to project irrational fears onto someone else, without having any knowledge about the subject, doesn't do them any good.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 10:09 PM |
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Edited by 1910 at 22:11, 17 Sep 2010.
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Quote:
I'm against guns. I think Americans have a sick relationship with firearms. I say no.
I have to agree with this. It's one of the main causes of Crime as well. Other countries have such less crime rate (ones without guns) and at the end of the day, you wonder why? You may well say, bin, that the purpose is to stop the Crime but many use it to make the Crime. If you don't shoot them, they will shoot you. If you show them you have a gun and they also have a gun, do you think they'll just surrender and all? They're Criminals. Like I said, if you don't shoot them to stop the Crime then they will shoot you. I hate the bloody things.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 10:18 PM |
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It's one of the main causes of Crime as well.
Wrong. You just totally made that up didn't you? Source?
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Other countries have such less crime rate (ones without guns)
Wrong. Source?
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If you don't shoot them, they will shoot you
Wrong. Source? Where the hell do people get such crazy ideas? TV isn't real. You know that right?
You guys are doing nothing but spreading fear over something you have no knowledge about. Spreading fear like that never helps anything.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted September 17, 2010 10:26 PM |
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Edited by angelito at 22:28, 17 Sep 2010.
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Binabik...you really should get more informations about places OUTSIDE of the USA.
Any country around with a higher criminal rate (with weapons involved) than the States? Maybe South Africa and Brazil...
Any country where more people die due to firearms?
And there is no argument more wrong than "I want a gun because bad people always have a gun too".
How often do you hear or read about crimes in western europe countries where firearms are involved? In opposit to America....
Of course a burglar in USA will have a gun and is prepared to shoot every second because he EXPECTS his victim to be armed aswell.
Nobody* breaks into a house in Germany and shoots the people there.
Nobody* robbs a gas station or a mall with guns here.
Nobody* shoots drivers in their car and steal the car then.
The more weapons private people will have, the more crime you will have.
*Or close to zero...
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 10:47 PM |
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Edited by 1910 at 22:51, 17 Sep 2010.
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Wrong. You just totally made that up didn't you? Source?
No, I didn't make that up. I've seen it on various news sources and also it's called Gun Crime. It's universally known by nearly everybody except for you, it seems, that America does have higher crime rate than most other countries in the world. Compared to places that don't have Guns like England and Australia, it's quite frightening how much more crime is in your country and the amount of Deaths caused by Gun Crime. I don't need a source because you can find all that on the Internet, News and Books. Stop being ignorant to things that may be bad against your country.
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Wrong. Source?
Read above and go research in books and internet and news (I'm on Dialup so I can't get to most pages except for Forums). And if you care to read what I say I said Gun Crime. In any country that has Guns you will have more Crime. One shot and the person is dead and it's so easy to buy guns and it's a dangerous weapon. What do you expect? For there to be no crime in reference to guns? lolwut?
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Wrong. Source? Where the hell do people get such crazy ideas? TV isn't real. You know that right?
So if you find a guy robbing your house and he has a gun and you also have a gun, do you honestly think for one second that he isn't going to shoot? You have it for Self Defense but what you said, not attacking them but since you have a gun it can stop the crime, do you think they'd not shoot you? Do you realise how ignorant you're sounding right now? It's laughable really. Criminals aren't NOT going to shoot. If they have a gun, they will shoot you. They're the criminal after all. They don't have a gun for no reason. lol.
Like Angelito said, maybe go read some things about countries outside of America for once and stop living under a rock.
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted September 17, 2010 10:48 PM |
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I thought that crime had more to do with social exclusion (what you call it?) than the availability of guns. There are loads of guns in Finland but not that much crime.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted September 17, 2010 10:50 PM |
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Quote:
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Other countries have such less crime rate (ones without guns)
Wrong. Source?
Norway, Switzerland, and propelly Sweden too.
For norway and our chocolate loving.... distante relatives.... we have a higher amount of GUN per home, then the US, but carring and using them besides clubs and hunting is illegal.
Oh geeze, i wonder if it got a impact?
Then again, we have a completely differnt culture, and history along with different current problems.
So it might be completely unrelated.
But enforce a full gun ban, and let it last 2 more years after you have cleaned up all the illegal guns that would still be laying around, see if it actually had a effect.
Could be fun?
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You guys are doing nothing but spreading fear over something you have no knowledge about. Spreading fear like that never helps anything.
+1
angelito: *cough* Gun != Crime
Permit to jack around wih Guns == Crime
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 17, 2010 10:50 PM |
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Edited by Adrius at 22:56, 17 Sep 2010.
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I don't think the amount of crime itself increases due to allowing guns, but I do believe that the risk of more serious injuries due to crime can increase.
It's much easier to accidentally shoot someone than to accidentally stab them.
As for owning a gun yourself, I'd say skip it. If a robber enters your house and threatens you you're better off just obeying than trying to resist. Having a gun might make you do something stupid that puts your family in even more risk, you don't always think logically when in such a situation.
There's also the possibility of your kids getting hold of the gun which might turn out horrible, so you'll have to keep the gun real secure. And if it's REALLY secure, will you be able to get it when in a hostage situation or something?
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wog_edn
Promising
The Nothingness
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posted September 17, 2010 10:59 PM |
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Guns don't solve any trouble.
Knives on the other hand can be really handy!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted September 17, 2010 11:05 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 23:09, 17 Sep 2010.
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A lot of Some good information.
First let me say that I did not intend for this to be an ethical discussion about gun control. That's a peripheral issue at best. Please, keep it on topic.
Second, in response to Bin's astute question:
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2) "....has me freaked out"
Is getting a gun a knee-jerk reaction or have you actually thought it out?
It's not a knee-jerk reaction, but the Petit murder case sort of got me thinking about it again. For the record, I live a relatively low crime area. However, that doesn't mean that crimes do not happen. Last year someone in a neighboring suburb was murdered in their home, although it wasn't a random act of violence to be fair. However, just because I don't live in West Philadelphia doesn't mean it doesn't pay to be prepared.
I hear a lot of people talking about the importance of keeping your gun locked up in a locker, and ammo stored separately. This seems wise. On the other hand, when you actually need to use it you probably don't have 30 minutes to assemble it from different areas of the house. What's the value of having a gun if it takes you the better part of an hour to open up a safe and load it? Of course, I probably shouldn't be sleeping with it under my pillow, either. So what is the best solution?
I, too, was thinking shotgun. Or uzi. (J/k) What is typical cost of a shotgun + ammo?
For the record, I have fired a gun before (rifle), although it's been a long time.
In essence, I just thought I'd bring it up because it's something I've been thinking about. To allay your concerns, I would treat a gun with as much respect as many of the dangerous chemicals I use on a daily basis. But i very well may never purchase this one. This thread is mostly here to find out what gun-owners think of gun-ownership and also, for those who do not own guns, to find out if you would ever consider purchasing one.
Just out of curiosity, under what circumstances are you allowed to fire a gun at someone in protection of yourself or property? Does anyone know?
EDIT: To address Elodin's points: I'm not into owning pets. However, I do have motion sensors set up all around the house with flood light bright enough to be seen from outer space. Also, for those who asked: I have a reinforced steel fire door which would probably be near impossible to break through without a battering ram. It's not the door I'd be worried about - it's the four or five enormous ground floor windows that would be my concern.
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blizzardboy
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Nerf Herder
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posted September 17, 2010 11:15 PM |
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There are multiple places that have gun ownership that have low violent crime rates; some of them extremely low.
The UK surpassed the US and even South Africa with violent crimes rates not too long ago, and yet they have a complete ban on firearms. It is largely a result of increasing alcoholism, civil strife, and gangs.
The US has high violent crime rates and extremely high homicide rates due to culturally instilled naivety (it has been highly fortunate in the past with hardly experiencing war first-hand compared to the vast majority of Europe and most other places, which is largely responsible for the generations being less repulsed by violence), drug warfare, and social disparity.
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Adrius
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Stand and fight!
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posted September 17, 2010 11:16 PM |
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From my USA prejudice perspective... I'd say you're pretty much allowed to shoot someone that walks on your lawn with permission 
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 11:27 PM |
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Well tbh I think it would be better if you got robbed* than that you kill a person with a gun because afaik we only live once and a life is more valuble than someone getting robbed.
I think it has been a huge mistake in the US to allow everybody to get a gun to begin with. Crime rates would probably have been lower if every other citizens didn't have a gun there.
Plus as other people said there are other tools that pacify the criminal so you can call the police while he or she's pacified.
* Okay I have NO IDEA if all criminals in the US wear guns because when people rob in Sweden, most of the times they do not have a gun and I believe most murders have knives etc involved.
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 17, 2010 11:42 PM |
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Looks like this is a hot topic and it's moving fast. I'll quote Angelito, but it applies to most of you other guys as well.
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Binabik...you really should get more informations about places OUTSIDE of the USA.
Would you like to take a guess how much time I've spent researching this stuff? Would you like to bet that I've spent FAR more time than you have doing research? Do you want to guess how much effort I've put into actually looking for unbiased sources, meaning I reject sources from EITHER SIDE if I think they are biased? I've been an NRA member for over 20 years but I immediately rejected the NRA as a source because of bias.
No, I have not looked into Germany, but I've looked into several other countries including Canada, Australia, England and to a lesser degree several other countries.
I could say that all three countries listed above have a higher violent crime rate then the US (can't remember for sure about England). BUT there is a major problem with that. And it's a problem that affects virtually ALL information you read that compares crime in one country with crime in another. Before you can compare countries like that you have to normalize the numbers and there is no realistic way to do that with high accuracy. Nobody can make judgments like that because the data simply does not exist. I repeat, THE DATA DOES NOT EXIST.
Even the efforts by the UN to create international standards and practices regarding the definitions and reporting of crimes have had little success. I should clarify the above statement about data not existing. There is tons of data, but it has to be normalized. If two countries have very similar definitions for crimes, record them into the same category, have very similar rates of reporting the crimes in the first place, requirements for proof of a crime or even a conviction before it's recorded, and a host of other cultural and legal differences, THEN you can compare two countries.
But the issue here is not total crime rates, or even violent crime rates. The issue is the statements by people that gun ownership increases crime rates. That statement is blatantly false. It's just not true. The statistics do NOT support that. If anything the statistics show just the opposite, that increased gun ownership DECREASES crime rate. However I will stress again in an attempt to be unbiased, those statistics show correlation not castration. Over the last 20-30 years or so the murder rate and overall violent crime rate has steadily decreased, at the same time that gun ownership has increased. (the exception being the early 90s during the gang wars when the murder rate increased slightly)
I agree that the US has a high crime rate. But it CAN NOT be blamed on gun ownership. If you want to explain the high crime rate in the US, don't blame the guns, look somewhere else.
Bah, just for the record this thread is about Corribus asking about buying a gun and asking for opinions. In my first post I tried hard to give accurate unbiased info about it. If anything I leaned slightly toward him not getting a gun. I only got involved in this other off-topic discussion because of people's fear mongering and unknowledgeable statements. Those things don't do any good at all.
I gotta address this one because this type of statement is so common.
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So if you find a guy robbing your house and he has a gun and you also have a gun, do you honestly think for one second that he isn't going to shoot?
Absolutely that's what I think. I will also add that I think the odds of someone carrying a gun when they burgle a house are pretty slim. I've never seen any statistics about that, but I'm confident that it's true. They are burglars not murderers. Do you really think that burglars break into houses with guns pulled? If a burglar thinks he will need a gun when entering a house, he's not going to enter. They are criminals, not stupid.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2010 12:00 AM |
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It's one of the main causes of Crime as well.
Actually, criminals are the main cause of crime. Shocking, I know. 
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Eccentric Opinion
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Binabik
Responsible
Legendary Hero
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posted September 18, 2010 12:01 AM |
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OMG, I gotta leave it instead of correcting it.
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those statistics show correlation not CASTRATION
LMAO. That's what happens when I don't pay attention when my spell checker corrected "causation".
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted September 18, 2010 12:03 AM |
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Well tbh I think it would be better if you got robbed* than that you kill a person with a gun because afaik we only live once and a life is more valuble than someone getting robbed.
Completely wrong. My life and property are worth more than the life of criminal scum. There's no question about it. Not all lives are equal - the life of a law-abiding citizen is not the same as the life of some guy who initiates aggression against me. And that person would deserve the retaliation. With enough brutal force, the thieving rabble can be kept in line.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Keksimaton
Promising
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand
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posted September 18, 2010 12:07 AM |
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Man, I had more fun imagining a Swedish murderer than I should've. It's just that when you mix the stereotype of a blonde, permanently happy sissy boy wearing blue and yellow with a violent knife murder it makes for some morbidly funny imagery.
When it comes to shooting people to protect yourself, well much rather the whole matter of shooting people, it's kind of a grey area. I guess that according to the law, it's allowed during war time.
I'll need to do some more "work" on ethics.
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Noone shall pass, but no one besides him shall pass.
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blizzardboy
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Nerf Herder
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posted September 18, 2010 12:10 AM |
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@Bin:
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LMAO. That's what happens when I don't pay attention when my spell checker corrected "causation".
You've just been sig'd. I can't pass that up.
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1910
Known Hero
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posted September 18, 2010 01:24 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
So if you find a guy robbing your house and he has a gun and you also have a gun, do you honestly think for one second that he isn't going to shoot?
Absolutely that's what I think. I will also add that I think the odds of someone carrying a gun when they burgle a house are pretty slim. I've never seen any statistics about that, but I'm confident that it's true. They are burglars not murderers. Do you really think that burglars break into houses with guns pulled? If a burglar thinks he will need a gun when entering a house, he's not going to enter. They are criminals, not stupid.
I see. It's just that I hear of so many cases where they do burgle a house and people end up dead because the Criminal was either just that stupid or psychotic or just nervous and pulled the trigger. If I was to burgle a house, I'd bring a gun with me if I was in America. Just like people who have Guns for Defense, criminals may have them for Offense if they need to go that far.
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This thread is pages long: 
