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mvassilev
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posted April 26, 2011 05:10 AM |
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To me, "middle ground" means just what it looks like: a position in the middle between one extreme and another. "Respect" is an attitude towards someone, not a middle ground, because respect is not a position. "Do you believe in God?" "I think we should respect those with whom we disagree." You'll notice that's not answering the question. We can say that religion may teach some good morals, but that's beside the point. The question is one of atheism vs. theism, and that's binary - no middle ground to be found there.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 26, 2011 05:22 AM |
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Sorry, I flat out totally disagree. Such black and white thinking will never get you anywhere.
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mvassilev
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Undefeatable Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 05:55 AM |
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I don't see how you can disagree that theism vs. atheism is binary. Either one believes in a god, or one does not. That's binary. If it's binary, then by definition there's no middle ground. The only conceivable statement of position between atheism and theism is something like "I half-believe in a god" - but then, what does "half-believe" mean? There's no such thing as "half-believe" except perhaps as an average of time during which one believes for half of the time and disbelieves for the other.
That's not to say we can't learn from theists. As you posted in an earlier topic, debate challenges our viewpoints and helps them develop. But saying "They made a correct argument" is not the same as middle ground between atheism and theism. "Area of agreement" is not the same as "middle ground". "Area of agreement" is something you both believe in/think/etc - it's where your opinions overlap with theirs. "Middle ground" is literally the middle ground between your opposite positions.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted April 26, 2011 07:12 AM |
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Nothing is purely binary down here, I think. There are so many unknown variables which make someone saying "I believe there is nothing out there except empty sky" look insignificant and head-butted. Not believing in Bible's God, as it is painted in, does not always mean you are 100% materialist. Look at us, we are milliards while not a single one is 100% similar to another. Many unknown facts which we can't explain, and not always science related.
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mvassilev
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posted April 26, 2011 07:33 AM |
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Quote:
Not believing in Bible's God, as it is painted in, does not always mean you are 100% materialist.
True but irrelevant. One does not have to believe in the Abrahamic God to believe in a god. Nor does one have to be a materialist to be an atheist. But whether one is an atheist or theist is indeed binary - as you can either believe in a god or not.
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Eccentric Opinion
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 08:31 AM |
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I believe the "middle ground" you are talking about may be agnosticism, but those are generally atheists oppressed and pressured by tradition and religion around them to claim they're "agnostic".
Also I find it amusing how theists believe in a god that's similar to humans, HUMANS - primitive pathetic animals.
Moreover the whole "judgement - getting sent to hell for wrongdoing, and following commandments out of fear to go to heaven" and "bible law/commandments" clearly reflect simple human ways of thinking and their morality, easily showing the mental and personality limitations of people in the religion they made up.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 26, 2011 08:45 AM |
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"Middle Ground" has its merits - but it's not that simple a question. Let's hear Elodin:
Quote:
Heaven is for God and his children. Hell is for the devil and his children. God's children are those who follow him. The devil's children are those who follow in his rebellious footsteps.
A person who commits the crime of rebellion will be cast into the appropriate prison. Hell. Crime and punishment. A person who turns to God and forsake his sin gets a pardon. Isn't that neat?
To answer this: NO, it's NOT neat. Why?
Because there is no Middle Ground
And Elodin is correct with his description. The Bible explicitely says, that ONLY who believes in Jesus will go to Heaven (and be saved) - that's how I've always understood it, at least.
What does that mean?
It means, that I'm not allowed to stand on the Middle Ground, because Middle Ground for me would be to simply live one's life and be judged for the things you do or don't do.
Instead I find, that this is of secondary interest only. Prerequisite is to believe in a certain something - to blindly subscribe to something - without KNOWING anything certain about it. Which is something, everyone is warned about not to do, when it comes to smaller religions and anything else in life. NEVER let yourself urge or press into "signing" something you know squat about.
Seeing this from a business angle, you would ask, why is it important that you believe in JC and his resurrection? Shouldn't God be more interested in what the people DO instead in what they BELIEVE? Would we, if we were talking business, suspect an ulterior motive here?
We would.
The simplest explanation - and The Razor is one of the really great ideas of humanity, in my opinion - would be that this shows all the earmarks of human dupery: it's simple trick to make people commit themselves for the sake of the religion and its apparatus: sign NOW (in life) or be damned for all the rest of eternity.
To phrase it differently: if someone would ask me, what do you think is more likely, that it works as described or that it's human dupery and a trick to coax people into bolstering the ranks of a religious for "the usual reasons", I'd answer, the latter.
For me, the Bible - the "flow of events" described in it - doesn't make much sense. Or, better, it DOES make sense, but not in a way that would suggest a subscribtion for me. I don't like "God". And lots of Christians seem to feel awkward about him as well and try to "hide" him somewhat, like a black sheep of the family, reassuring everyone that the OT is somehow not valid for everyone except Jews, and even for them it's only history, but then they deny the truth of the NT and the fact it would replace the OT for them. It feels like they are looking for excuses - well, he WAS a wild one, and maybe he did act out of wrath a couple of times, but, hey, a good smacking can't hurt a wayward child, now, can it, and, anyway, with Jesus he made up for everything and set things right and all.
Really?
In the end I don't think it's important what people believe in. In the end it's the actions that count, first and foremost, not the belief. Which means that I respect people not because they have a certain belief or not, I respect them (or not) because of what they do and what they say.
I suppose that this is what Corribus defines as Middle Ground: don't throw around with labels like theist, atheist, listen to what people have to say about the details and the reasons, discuss them, if you want to, but keep in mind, that IN LIFE, at least, things depend on what you actually DO when push comkes to shove, and not what you think you believe or say, so the Middle Ground lies somewhat behind the first hurdle of labelling.
I therefore agree with Corribus.
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gnomes2169
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posted April 26, 2011 09:48 AM |
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Quote:
I believe the "middle ground" you are talking about may be agnosticism, but those are generally atheists oppressed and pressured by tradition and religion around them to claim they're "agnostic".
Hey, griff-dude. Have you ever thought that some of us agnostic-Christians actually chose their faith based on their own personal choice? Don't just assume that your way is the only way. Goodnight.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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mvassilev
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posted April 26, 2011 10:06 AM |
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SkrentyzMienty:
Agnosticism is not a middle ground between theism and atheism. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge - "I do not know whether a god exists." Theism and atheism are both statements of belief - "I do/do not believe that a god exists." Knowledge and belief are different things. Most atheists are also agnostics - they say "I do not know whether a god exists, but I do not believe in one." Similarly, there are agnostic theists - they say "I do not know whether a god exists, but I have faith that one does." Agnosticism is not a third position, but a separate scale entirely.
JJ:
But there is an inevitable connection between what you are and what you do. An atheist, for example, will not pray to Jesus. A communist will not support private ownership of the means of production. A social conservative will not march in a gay pride parade. Etc. People act in accordance with who they are and what they believe. Labels may prevent you from noticing something, but they're still very useful in interacting with people. "Aha, he's X, that means 1, 2, and 3." And, lo and behold, 1, 2, and 3.
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Zenofex
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posted April 26, 2011 10:14 AM |
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Quote:
For me, the Bible - the "flow of events" described in it - doesn't make much sense.
I guess that would be because the writing and editing process took quite some time and the people involved believed in different things and had different purposes. The synchronization is an obvious disaster. But the most difficult thing to explain to a Christian is that historically the Bible is a huge mess of additions, deletions and re-adjustments and not some internally consistent novel where the end with Jesus was in the mind of the author(s) who wrote about the beginning with the Creation and Adam and Eve. Heck, most Christians don't even know what Christ means, let alone that Jesus is not the only Christ.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 26, 2011 10:45 AM |
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Mvass, I bold/underlined the decisive wordsQuote:
JJ:
But there is an inevitable connection between what you are and what you do. An atheist, for example, will not pray to Jesus. A communist will not support private ownership of the means of production. A social conservative will not march in a gay pride parade. Etc. People act in accordance with who they are and what they believe. Labels may prevent you from noticing something, but they're still very useful in interacting with people. "Aha, he's X, that means 1, 2, and 3." And, lo and behold, 1, 2, and 3.
In short, while you start with the connection of what you DO and what you are, and go on to give examples for what people will NOT DO.
In other words: Not praying to Jesus is definitely not the same thing than mocking Jesus. Not supporting private ownership is not the same thing than supporting and working for the expropriation of everyone, the immediate sswitching to a one-party-system and the dictatorship of the proletariate. Not marching in a gay pride parade is not the same thing than being member of an anti-gay-pride demonstration that wants to beat the living hell out of those pervert pagans.
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mvassilev
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posted April 26, 2011 11:11 AM |
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Those were only selected examples. A Christian as recognized by Elodin will give to charity. A drug addict will do drugs. A Neo-Nazi will attend Neo-Nazi marches and/or other events. Sure, not all of them will all the time - but it's a pretty good prediction of what they will do. And it's just as relevant to show what they will not do, which labels accomplish as well.
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JollyJoker
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posted April 26, 2011 11:40 AM |
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Well, then, Mvass, if you label a person as Christian, what can you deduct from it what this person will do and will not do, as opposed to an Atheist.
In other words:
What will a Christian do and an Atheist not, and what will an Atheist do and a Christian not?
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SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
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posted April 26, 2011 12:05 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I believe the "middle ground" you are talking about may be agnosticism, but those are generally atheists oppressed and pressured by tradition and religion around them to claim they're "agnostic".
Hey, griff-dude. Have you ever thought that some of us agnostic-Christians actually chose their faith based on their own personal choice? Don't just assume that your way is the only way. Goodnight.
I didn't say all, I said "generally". Goodnight.
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Jabanoss
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posted April 26, 2011 02:31 PM |
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Edited by Jabanoss at 14:31, 26 Apr 2011.
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@mvass
Quote:
Jaba:
Of course I've imagined what it's like to be a theist. It doesn't make any sense - believing in something for which there is no evidence.
I don't think it make any sense either, but people are different. Some people can base things on belief or vague evidence with no probelm. It's like conspiracy theories, some people just hook up on them at once while others, like me require more proofs.
I just find it hilarious in Elodin's links where some theist describe atheists as if they had some kind of social disorder. 
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted April 26, 2011 02:50 PM |
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I posted in this thread on Easter. The reason should be obvious
I've read a lot of this thread and as in any serious topic thread it is full of facts, bias' errors, maybes', beliefs and unknowns. Any one of us can and do hit on those nails.
I would simply encourage all to dig in to "all topics" the best they can and discover "their" answers for themselves. (even the most repulsive) I mention that only because; too often, I found that I was in error and it was because of something that I had accepted unquestioned. From family, school, friends, newspapers,you name it.
People have had their hands (and a lot more) in all things passed on. And people are hmmmm...imperfect.
The thing is, even after doing all of that on many things during a lifetime, I still came to a point where I thought; "What do I really know?" If knowing can be equated to experience by one or all of the senses, than I know little. I've never seen Italy, an atom (pictures do not count), the moon...(felt the surface under my feet) and nearly all that lies between my ears.
Here is a great fairly recent discovery; I "think" that I have discovered: the more that I realize I do not know... the wiser I've became.
Make a great day. H5's wonderful map-editor beckons me back to the cave. a.k.a. (map-making HQ)
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Elodin
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posted April 26, 2011 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
Well, then, Mvass, if you label a person as Christian, what can you deduct from it what this person will do and will not do, as opposed to an Atheist.
In other words:
What will a Christian do and an Atheist not, and what will an Atheist do and a Christian not?
A Christian will love, pray for, and do good to even his enemies. An atheist will not. In fact some of the atheists on this board have said that loving and doing good to even your enemies is a bad thing and that a person should not love everyone.
And of course studies show that in general religious people are more charitable than non-religious people. The studies considering atheism not to be a religion.
And of course there are many thousands of Christian charities and so far as I know there are no atheist charities though there are atheist organizations such as "Freedom from religion" so atheists do band together to do things, just not to do charitable things, in general.
It would be quite silly to claim that atheists and Christians don't behave differently because in fact they have different worldviews.
Quote:
I guess that would be because the writing and editing process took quite some time and the people involved believed in different things and had different purposes. The synchronization is an obvious disaster. But the most difficult thing to explain to a Christian is that historically the Bible is a huge mess of additions, deletions and re-adjustments and not some internally consistent novel where the end with Jesus was in the mind of the author(s) who wrote about the beginning with the Creation and Adam and Eve. Heck, most Christians don't even know what Christ means, let alone that Jesus is not the only Christ.
Of course nothing you have said is true but you are entitled to your opinions.
Strange if the Bible is so full of inconsistencies and errors that no one has been able to prove even one thing to be an error. And people have certainly thrown out thousands of falsehoods about the Bible on this board alone.
Of course what I have found is that atheists have a very poor knowledge of the Bible and merely copy and paste from an anti-theist site to try to show an error. Things taken out of context, which are easy to shoot down by a person who actually studies the Bible.
A person is highly unlikely to stumble upon spiritual truth. You have to seek to find and atheists simply do not put much/effort into seeking such truth. And of course having a hunger for the truth and a willingness to apply what you discover is beneficial.
I've studies the Bible since about age 10. Closing in on 37 years of study now, and I've found not a single error. Sometimes I'd see something that initially appeared to be a contradiction but on further study, prayer, and reflection my understanding grew.
No, there is only one Christ. Jesus.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted April 26, 2011 03:44 PM |
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Quote:
Seeing this from a business angle, you would ask, why is it important that you believe in JC and his resurrection? Shouldn't God be more interested in what the people DO instead in what they BELIEVE? Would we, if we were talking business, suspect an ulterior motive here?
We would.
The simplest explanation - and The Razor is one of the really great ideas of humanity, in my opinion - would be that this shows all the earmarks of human dupery: it's simple trick to make people commit themselves for the sake of the religion and its apparatus: sign NOW (in life) or be damned for all the rest of eternity.
To phrase it differently: if someone would ask me, what do you think is more likely, that it works as described or that it's human dupery and a trick to coax people into bolstering the ranks of a religious for "the usual reasons", I'd answer, the latter.
The only dupery I see is the dupery that certain atheists on this board engage in.
Saying that the Bible says God is interested in beliefs rather than actions is false. I have quoted many many many times many verses that contradict what you just said. All throughout the Bible, Old, and New Covenant writings, actions are emphasized. That shows your knowledge of the Bible to be quite poor indeed.
Jesus said (paraphrase) "Call me Lord all day long but if you don't do what I say you are not mine."
Quote:
Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
You see, JJ, the Bible does not teach that just saying "Jesus is Lord" is adequate for salvation or that just having a mental knowledge of who Jesus is is adequate for salvation.
True belief is lived, not just spoken. Mental assent is not belief. Even the devils "believe in" (in the sense of knowing he exists) God but they don't follow God. But they don't "believe in" (put their trust in and follow) God. They don't have faith.
Quote:
Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted April 26, 2011 03:48 PM |
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Quote:
A Christian will love, pray for, and do good to even his enemies. An atheist will not.
What a completely prejudicial and asinine thing to say. You have NO IDEA how I would act in ANY situation, let alone how the millions of other atheists out there would act, and the fact that you think you can judge me or someone else a priori based only on my so-called "religion" shows you to be no better than the "anti-theists" you rail about all the time.
Actually, I have a new term for people like you, Elodin: "Anti-atheist."
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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baklava
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posted April 26, 2011 03:57 PM |
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Quote:
those are generally atheists oppressed and pressured by tradition and religion around them to claim they're "agnostic".
Why? Why do you think this is a fact? Do you have absolutely any proof of what you just said?
Or do you, by "generally", mean "this is just an assumption of mine but I'll present it as a fact so that it sounds better, and if anyone tells me I'm wrong, I'll say I said 'generally' so I'll still turn out to be a winner"?
I mean, this is like someone saying atheists are generally angsty teens who channel their rebelliousness in a rather childish manner, but toward something that seems like a serious issue, so that they can believe they're acting like intelligent young adults and participating in mature discussions, and then rage hard when their arguments turn out to be silly enough for no one to really take them seriously.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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