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bixie
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 15, 2011 10:05 AM |
bonus applied by angelito on 28 Apr 2011. |
Edited by bixie at 10:28, 15 Feb 2011.
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a biblical hypothetical
this is a thread directed to biblical scholars and the like, as I'm presenting a hypothetical situation...
imagine a man, lets call him Stanley. Stanley is an average man, who is very religious, goes to church every sunday, is hard-working, with a wife and two children in a nice neighbourhood. he's kind, friendly, and a moral pillar of the community.
He has, up to this point, not been swayed by any temptations. he remained chaste until marriage, he never smoked pot, he never shirked his duties, he gave to numerous charities, and he was a perfect gentleman to everyone he met.
However, one night, the devil came to him, and despite Stanley's struggles, the Devil clouded his reason with lies and false evidence in such a way that it is enough for him to be convinced that his family needs to die. Under the Devils complete control, Stanley murdered his family. Only when the deed was done, did the Devil leave and did Stanley understand what happened to him.
afterwards, Stanley is naturally distraught over it. He turns himself in to the authorities, gives all his assets to the church, and consults a priest everyday for the rest of his life. he ends up committing suicide in his cell due to guilt.
now, my questions...
1) who is responsible for these actions, Stanley or the Devil?
2) what happens to Stanley's soul? does god forgive him or not?
3) does Stanley's life as a good believer excuse his actions?
4) does the Devil's control over you, even if that control was completely unwilling, taint your soul?
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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kodial79
Promising
Supreme Hero
How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 15, 2011 10:12 AM |
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The answer is rather simple: Stanley goes to Hell for committing suicide. God doesn't understand despair and guilt. No matter the odds, he rules that faith is enough to get us through everything. Stanley's faith wasn't strong enough, not only because he committed suicide in the end, but also because the devil managed to sway him and make him stray off the path of righteousness. In God's eyes, Stanley is a failure and failures don't have a place in Heaven.
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JollyJoker
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posted February 15, 2011 10:16 AM |
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Bixie, PLEASE. Did you have to open another foolish religion thread, and one that's based on a wrong assumption at that?
The devil cannot gain souls by FORCING his will onto people. The devil will coax, lie, tempt and stir desires, but he won't use force.
So if a person succumbs to the devil it must be more or less voluntary, that is, the person must WILLINGLY - albeit tempted - do the devil's bidding.
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kodial79
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How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted February 15, 2011 10:21 AM |
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Edited by kodial79 at 10:21, 15 Feb 2011.
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Well, he can rephrase that by saying that the Devil clouded his reason with lies and false evidence in such a way that it is enough for him to be convinced that his family needs to die. And all the while, he didn't even know that it was the devil behind it all, until the deed was done.
That's something that the devil can do, isn't it? The Bible is full of how the devil appears like the wolf is sheep's clothing and how he's the prince of lies. And being the devil and all, he must be very smart and more than able to convince his victims that he's telling them the truth.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature!
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Doomforge
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Retired Hero
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posted February 15, 2011 10:25 AM |
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Quote:
1) who is responsible for these actions, Stanley or the Devil?
I think of devil as metaphorical figure, even in the Bible. Representing bad consequences of having a free will. So, if Stanley was sane, it's Stanley's fault. If not, he was sick and unable to restrain himself.
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2) what happens to Stanley's soul? does god forgive him or not?
According to Christianity, genuine regret can make all sins forgiven.
Quote:
3) does Stanley's life as a good believer excuse his actions?
no
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4) does the Devil's control over you, even if that control was completely unwilling, taint your soul?
Since I think there is no personified devil, no answer.
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bixie
Promising
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my common sense is tingling!
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posted February 15, 2011 10:31 AM |
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@JJ(JJJJ): the reason why I did this is that I was genuinely curious about how this sort of stuff would be explained by people. just that, curiosity. nothing more.
of course, curiosity killed the cat, but then cat's are malicious evil b*stards and we should all put our efforts into killing cats wherever we find them.
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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markkur
Honorable
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Once upon a time
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posted February 15, 2011 03:07 PM |
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Quote:
1) who is responsible for these actions, Stanley or the Devil?
I am always responsible for my actions. Btw, often disappointed
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2) what happens to Stanley's soul? does god forgive him or not?
The N.T. Christ would forgive this man in a heartbeat. "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" If the Lord can muster this at a time of beiing nailed to wood, after a spell of insult, abuse and scourging (worse than I can imagine from this chair) than I'm sure he will do as He commanded and have "compassion" for a person that is ill enough to have no hope and falsely think they warrant no future.
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3) does Stanley's life as a good believer excuse his actions?
Negative. Good works are needed and desirable but if they become trophys, then they will become a stumbling-block or worse yet, a prideful-noose.
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4) does the Devil's control over you, even if that control was completely unwilling, taint your soul?
My soul is and always has been imperfect. So it is already tainted and (as has been called in popular-use at HC)..."not good" at all times. The spirit's adversary is called the "Accuser" and this truth with imperfect people such as myself makes nice kindling for condemnation in many forms.
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VokialBG
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First in line
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posted February 15, 2011 03:36 PM |
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Edited by VokialBG at 15:36, 15 Feb 2011.
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5) Why we even carry about him. Ned Flanders is no ones favourite The Simpsons character anyway. It's not that funny without him but still...
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted February 15, 2011 05:18 PM |
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Quote:
However, one night, the devil came to him, and despite Stanley's struggles, the Devil clouded his reason with lies and false evidence in such a way that it is enough for him to be convinced that his family needs to die. Under the Devils complete control, Stanley murdered his family. Only when the deed was done, did the Devil leave and did Stanley understand what happened to him.
afterwards, Stanley is naturally distraught over it. He turns himself in to the authorities, gives all his assets to the church, and consults a priest everyday for the rest of his life. he ends up committing suicide in his cell due to guilt.
The situation you presented can't occur.
1) The devil can tempt a person but God does not allow a person to be tempted to such a degree that he can't resist the temptation.
Quote:
1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
2) The Bible is clear that no Christian commits murder.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Now that we have settled, God is willing to forgive anyone who will sincerely turn to him from their sins.
Before the Apostle Paul became a Christian he went around murdering Christians. When he saw the light of who Jesus is he turned to Christ and repented of his sins and became probably the most influential person (aside from Christ) in Christian history.
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Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
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Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
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Salamandre
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posted February 15, 2011 05:35 PM |
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Quote:
1) The devil can tempt a person but God does not allow a person to be tempted to such a degree that he can't resist the temptation.
Adam and Eve?
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JollyJoker
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posted February 15, 2011 05:56 PM |
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Err, the whole point of THAT story is, that they could HAVE resisted - simply by remembering and obeying God's command.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted February 15, 2011 06:09 PM |
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Funny, I thought it was to illustrate how sex is supposed to be shameful and evil.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted February 15, 2011 06:14 PM |
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That's what I initially thought as well, but it makes no sense. 
I think, it's more of an allegory of the awakening of consciousness: initially, humans were like animals - no yesterday, no tomorrow, no sorrow, paradise (which is why they didn't have use fo clothing).
Then they ate the "apple of knowledge" (actually not a random name) and got consciousness, that is, the eating of the apple marks the spark of conscious thought, making them humans - and suddenly they realized themselves.
End of paradise and start of "labouring".
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evinin
Supreme Hero
Servant of Asha
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posted February 15, 2011 06:18 PM |
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1) who is responsible for these actions, Stanley or the Devil?
Stanley, "the Devil" doesn't exist.
2) what happens to Stanley's soul? does god forgive him or not?
Murder is a sin, no one is going to forgive him.
3) does Stanley's life as a good believer excuse his actions?
No, nothing excuses his actions.
4) does the Devil's control over you, even if that control was completely unwilling, taint your soul?
There is no such thing as "Devil" that can control man. Everything that we do we do it because of ourself not because of same supernatural being.
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VokialBG
Honorable
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First in line
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posted February 15, 2011 10:12 PM |
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Now we wait for Elodin's post. I won't take that much.
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Sleeping_Sun
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Townscreen Architect
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posted February 15, 2011 11:38 PM |
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1) who is responsible for these actions, Stanley or the Devil?
Stanley is responsible despite temptation from devil. He didn't need to do that.
2) what happens to Stanley's soul? does god forgive him or not?
It depends. If he asked for forgiveness, it is possible that God will forgiven him, but if he didn't asked for forgiveness then God will not do it...
But since it is suicide, I don't think that he would be forgiven. He didn't give any life, so he can't take one...
3) does Stanley's life as a good believer excuse his actions?
Believer or not, nothing can excuse his actions. He either did it or did not.
4) does the Devil's control over you, even if that control was completely unwilling, taint your soul?
Since Adam and Eve every human being is tainted in a way.
If devil controls someone isn't that possession or something like that...??? I thinks he is more a tempter than controller...
Every sinful action/doing taints your soul.
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"The age can be wicked to those who walk alone. When I look into the Mirror, I see myself as I might become..." -Freya
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friendofgunnar
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able to speed up time
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posted February 16, 2011 09:37 AM |
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I'll give you an easy answer to this, what if the flying sphagetti monster comes into a person's brain and makes him kill his family?
devil foolishness aside, an even more interesting question is raised when God himself enters into a person's mind and causes that person to murder, for example here in Joshua 11: 19-21
Quote:
Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
What happens then? If they have their free will subverted so that they serve part of a greater plan do they get a free pass at judgement day? Eh, prolly not.
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted February 16, 2011 04:00 PM |
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Quote:
I'll give you an easy answer to this, what if the flying sphagetti monster comes into a person's brain and makes him kill his family?
devil foolishness aside, an even more interesting question is raised when God himself enters into a person's mind and causes that person to murder, for example here in Joshua 11: 19-21
Quote:
Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. For it was the LORD himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the LORD had commanded Moses.
What happens then? If they have their free will subverted so that they serve part of a greater plan do they get a free pass at judgement day? Eh, prolly not.
God has a right to judge. Don't like it? Tough.
God used the nation of Israel to judge the surrounding nations when he gave Israel the promised land. The Bible says the people had become so wicked there that basicly it made God want to puke. The land "vomitted out" the inhabitants and the Jews replaced them.
The Jews were not allowed to take the promised land until the wickedness of the inhabitants was so bad that God was unwilling to tolerate it any longer. He gave them 400 years to repent. When their iniquity "was full" God freed the Jews from Egypt and moved them in to judge the inhabitants of Cannan.
Israel was warned that if they took up the sinful ways of the people God threw out that they would be judged too.
Quote:
Gen 15:13 And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years;
Gen 15:14 And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance.
Gen 15:15 And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age.
Gen 15:16 But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
Lev 18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
I'll bet the anti-theist site you got the verses from did not tell you all that, did they? Of course not. Anti-theists, according to what I have observed through the years, are not even slightly interested in truth.
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baklava
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posted February 16, 2011 04:08 PM |
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Israel was warned that if they took up the sinful ways of the people God threw out that they would be judged too.
So do you think that the Romans and other suffering of the Jewish people was God's punishment to Jews for not being too great either?
Just asking out of curiosity.
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is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
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Azagal
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posted February 16, 2011 04:56 PM |
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Edited by Azagal at 16:57, 16 Feb 2011.
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Rrrrrrright "just out of curiosity"... it's not as if you don't already know the answer you firestarter.
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"All I can see is what's in front of me. And all I can do is keep moving forward" - The Heir Wielder of Names, Seeker of Thrones, King of Swords, Breaker of Infinities, Wheel Smashing Lord
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