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ohforfsake
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted April 30, 2011 07:10 PM |
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Oh no. Not this again.
To lie: Be wrong AND knowing being wrong.
One can at most find out someone is wrong, but not knowing they're wrong without actually being able to look into their brain. To tell someone they lie is both a compliment (because it says the person is too smart to believe what they wrote) and offensive (because it says the person is trolling).
To tell someone they're wrong (the conclusion) and follow it with reasons behind this statement (the arguments), is how I'd personally expect someone to discuss a subject.
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bixie
Promising
Legendary Hero
my common sense is tingling!
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posted May 01, 2011 12:02 AM |
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Quote:
To tell someone they lie is.[...] offensive (because it says the person is trolling).
Hint: that's cause elodin is!
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Love, Laugh, Learn, Live.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 01, 2011 12:40 AM |
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Edited by Elodin at 00:41, 01 May 2011.
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Quote:
Oh no. Not this again.
To lie: Be wrong AND knowing being wrong.
One can at most find out someone is wrong, but not knowing they're wrong without actually being able to look into their brain. To tell someone they lie is both a compliment (because it says the person is too smart to believe what they wrote) and offensive (because it says the person is trolling).
To tell someone they're wrong (the conclusion) and follow it with reasons behind this statement (the arguments), is how I'd personally expect someone to discuss a subject.
If I were to make a statement such as "You are a 45 year old man living in your mother's basement. You've never worked a day in your life and just spend your days spouting your predetermined opinions on the internet. You've never changed your mind about anything and never listened to anyone" I would not be just "wrong." I would be lying because I've never met you, I don't know how old you are, I don't know you live in your mother's basement, I don't know that you've never worked, I have no way of knowing what all of your opinions are, much less if you've ever changed your opinion about anything or that you've never listened to a single person in your life.
Such statements are what I called a lie because they were made for provocation reasons, not to express what the individual knew to be a fact. Such statements are not "opinions" but lies.
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Revelation
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 01, 2011 01:57 AM |
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Looks like Elodin needs to learn what the definition of a lie is.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 01, 2011 04:07 AM |
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Quote:
and some Chinese Mao Lao
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted May 01, 2011 04:20 AM |
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 01, 2011 06:58 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 07:00, 01 May 2011.
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It's still a moot point. Since by Elodin's own argument..no human has ever been, is, or will be a Christian. Since he claims they CANNOT murder or hate, not just don't but CANNOT, then it is impossible for a human to be a Christian. As all Humans, regardless on if they hate or murder, are CAPABLE of such. So by this very reasoning, there has never been, nor is there, nor will there ever be a Christian Religion..as no human has, is, or ever will be part of that religion. *shrugs*
Note I do not agree with his interpretation of the scriptures quoted, but that is neither here nor there.
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Message received.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 01, 2011 07:28 AM |
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Quote:
It's still a moot point. Since by Elodin's own argument..no human has ever been, is, or will be a Christian. Since he claims they CANNOT murder or hate, not just don't but CANNOT, then it is impossible for a human to be a Christian. As all Humans, regardless on if they hate or murder, are CAPABLE of such. So by this very reasoning, there has never been, nor is there, nor will there ever be a Christian Religion..as no human has, is, or ever will be part of that religion. *shrugs*
Note I do not agree with his interpretation of the scriptures quoted, but that is neither here nor there.
I'm sad that you seem to think that a person has to hate or murder. 
But yeah, the Bible does say that no one who is a Christian hates or murders. I can assure you there are lots of folks who don't do either. Maybe you are just hanging out with the wrong crowd.
Quote:
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Revelation
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 01, 2011 10:32 AM |
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Edited by Mytical at 11:07, 01 May 2011.
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I will use your own logic on this. I call you a liar.
You said. Quote:
I'm sad that you seem to think that a person has to hate or murder.
Show me where I said a person HAS to hate or murder? Nope, didn't happen. I said a person is CAPABLE of hate or murder. Total difference.
Direct quote from you Quote:
But yeah, the Bible does say that no one who is a Christian hates or murders
Since your interpretation states that nobody who can hate or murder can be a Christian that means that nobody can ever be a Christian or has ever been one.
People are capable of many things that does not ALWAYS occur. Anger, fear, frustration, etc..being capable doesn not mean HAS to.
Are you incapable of fear? I would guess not, yet are you ALWAYS afraid? Obviously not. One can go their whole life never experiencing fear, but be capable of being afraid.
You are taking a guideline for an absolute. If we do that, then absolutely nobody can be a Christian..period. Think of all the rules in the bible and put them as absolutes. How many people could never break one? Ever? Even slightly? Or else magically they suddenly never were actually Christian.
You don't 'magicially' become incapable of doing something because of joinging a religion. Everybody is born capable of hate and yes..even killing somebody. It doesn't magically vanish because you are a christian. You are not 'supposed' to, but like any other rule you have a CHOICE. Just like you don't magically become unable to lie, it is a choice you make.
Wanting to be more christ like (or how he is perceived to be) is admirable, but the illusion that you suddenly become 'perfect' the second you become a Christian is a logical fallacy. After all, does not it say.. "Come as thou art."
In conclusion you have two choices. Christians are humans, capabable of doing anything any other human is capable of since birth..or no human has ever been a Christian. I don't realy care which you decide ..as it is your faith and not mine..but I believe you are interpreting the quoted scripture wrong ON PURPOSE to twist it to your liking. *shrugs*
PS. Lets take law abiding citizens. The law says "Nobody will go over the posted speed limits." Lets assume everybody wants to obey that law. Does that magicially make people absolutely incapable of doing so? Of course not. Just because its a rule, doesn't mean people are no longer capable of doing it.
Since you also don't magically become 'never a christian' when breaking one of the rules (or again, nobody would be christian) then yes Christians are capable of Murder AND hate. They may lose 'the grace of christ' I would not argue THAT point, but to say they were never christians says "No human is ever a Christian". Its as simple as that.
I am one of the FIRST to say that PEOPLE do horrible things, not whatever belief that may have held. A person who 'kills in the name of Christ' is about as legit as a $4 dollar bill. To say they a person is not CAPABLE of doing it though is rediculous in the extream.
You might as well (NOTE: I AM NOT CLAIMING YOU ARE SAYING IT) claim that gravity is gravy.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2011 12:17 PM |
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I hate to jump into this useless discussion, but I think, what Elodin wants to say is this: IF you are a "real" Christian - and "real" means, that you support the ideas of Christ WHOLEHEARTEDLY, and not with your lips only - than you WOULDN'T hate or murder (because you have not only accepted what it means to be one, but FOLLOW it as well).
Which means, if a person who is SUPPOSEDLY a Christian, DOES hate or murder, Elodin would say, that person in fact didn't really believe in Christ and so can't be called a Christian, because if he WAS one, he wouldn't have done it.
To take the example with the speed limits - since no one is FORCED to be a Christian, you would expect from those who say they are, that they FOLLOW the principles. As in, if you are really convinced that the speed limit makes sense, you can be expected to follow and keep it...
It should be obvious, where Elodin's error lies: humans are ONLY humans - it's always possible that something happens which seemingly (for the person) leaves no other option than to "make an exception". This is especially true when it comes to feelings which may sometimes be too strong. Humans are prone to sometimes lose temper and control, when the situation is "right", and if you WOULD accept Elodin's "definition", you'd simply have to say that those who ARE Christians after his definition, have just been incredibly lucky to have been spared the real trials in life that would have tested them.
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OHFORFSAKE
Promising
Legendary Hero
Initiate
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posted May 01, 2011 12:32 PM |
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Reading what I wrote yesterday, I wonder what I was thinking. Lying has as little to do with being wrong as speaking the truth as to be about being right.
Elodin. People don't lie about you. Saying so means you are certain that they don't believe in what they write themselves. No one, apart from themselves, can possible know this, no matter what logical error that may lie in their post, they can believe it's solid logic themselves. People can be mistaken about you, however.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted May 01, 2011 01:41 PM |
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However, JJ that is not what he IS saying. He is saying it is impossible for them to do so. IE no self/free will. It would be like you occupying two spaces 5 miles apart and be alive.
While I agree that somebody who TRULY follows the religion would not WANT to hate, it is not impossible for them to do in this case. One could in clear conscious join the religion with absolutely no intent to do it, live many years, and truly follow/live as a Christian..and then come a time when something happens that they CHOOSE to say Hate somebody because they killed a family member (or similar). Their past as a Christian does not 'magically' disappear when this happens. It wasn't that he NEVER was a Christian, but that he chose to cease being one AT THAT POINT. However, the kicker is..the very religion states there is only a very select few 'unforgivable' sins..and hate or murder is NOT one of those. Since they CAN be forgiven of those sins, they don't even really cease to be a Christian. If they pray for forgiveness, and mean it..then they never lose their Christianity.
So theoretically, even killing/hating does not automatically = not a Christian. However, I agree with him on one big issue. Anybody who claims to be killing for Christ/Christianity is flat out lying.
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Message received.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2011 01:56 PM |
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Quote:
. Anybody who claims to be killing for Christ/Christianity is flat out lying.
And you would be as wrong as he is with that claim. I have no intention to discuss this, but there was a time when people thought it would be better for a person to die as a Christian (or repenting sinner) and go to heaven than to live as a an unrepenting sinner and go to hell.
As I said, I have no intention to discuss this. Whether that is wróng or right to think or whether the Bible says something different and or not, it's all irrelevant, because there has been a time when relevant people did believe that and acted accordingly.
Humans and Christians may be a lot, but no one, not even Christians are immune against faulty logic, wrong conclusions and general errors.
Which is a big part of the problem.
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Lumske_Beaver
Adventuring Hero
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posted May 01, 2011 02:36 PM |
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Indeed people can be wrong about each other, but it does not seem that Elodin feels that he can be wrong about anybody since he allows himself to arbitrarily throw accusations as lies and slander at people without engaging with what they say.
@JJ - Straight to the point, but not really that different from what mytical is saying because I would argue that "not being tested" as you call it or living in isolation from the world around you is virtually impossible and unrealistic. Also if you have not been tested then you have never faced a choice and have thus not chosen to be with God, you just happen to be. Your belief would be meaningless as you equally possibly could have been with the Devil. You never chose to reject the Devil nor to welcome God, which is merely a state of indifference and vagueness. Hence you must conclude that, if you accept "Elodin's definition," you cannot possibly be Christian.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2011 04:20 PM |
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I don't accept Elodin's definition. My personal opinion on this is, that everyone is a Christian who BELIEVES himself to be one - whether he IN FACT or REALLY or INDEED is one, would be God's job to judge, not ours.
However, IF someone would accept that definition - to phrase this a bit differently - it would, since humans are not perfect - in the end just be a question of the "situations" humans are confronted with, whether you can live up to it and be Christian or not - to give an example: some people may have no problems with being "mobbed"; they may really not hate the mobbers and think something lkike, Lord have mercy on them, they don't know what they do. Others may, though. It may depend on the severity of the mobbing. Or it may result in severe consequences that may snap another person.
Others may just be lucky and don't ever experience something really severe - it's not their fault, if that's the case.
But fact is, you never can tell what MIGHT happen with your convictions when they are really SEVERELY put to the test.
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 01, 2011 04:27 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 16:32, 01 May 2011.
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Quote:
I will use your own logic on this. I call you a liar.
Oh, how cute. No, you are not using any logic of mine. I don't call people liars for having a different opinion than I do. I called the person a liar because he made at least 23 lies and insults about me in one post. And of course was awarded a +QP for the post, but that is besides the point.
Quote:
You said. Quote:
I'm sad that you seem to think that a person has to hate or murder.
Show me where I said a person HAS to hate or murder? Nope, didn't happen. I said a person is CAPABLE of hate or murder. Total difference.
A Christian does not hate and does not murder according to the Bible. Therefore it is not possible that a Christian will hate or murder. Therefore a Christian is incapable of committing hate and incapable of committing murder. A person who does either is not a Christian.
Quote:
Since your interpretation states that nobody who can hate or murder can be a Christian that means that nobody can ever be a Christian or has ever been one. People are capable of many things that does not ALWAYS occur. Anger, fear, frustration, etc..being capable doesn not mean HAS to.
Your claim that Christians are capable of hate and murder is quite simply false according to the Bible. Sorry, I'm not a Myticalite. I am a Christian. The Bible is my source of doctrine, not you.
True Christians have been born again according to Jesus Christ. I know you claim Christians are just like everybody else but you are wrong according to Jesus. Jesus is my teacher, not you.
Quote:
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
The very core teaching of Christianity is to love God with all that you are and to love your neighbor as yourself. A person who does not love God and man is not a Christian.
Quote:
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Quote:
Think of all the rules in the bible and put them as absolutes. How many people could never break one? Ever? Even slightly? Or else magically they suddenly never were actually Christian.
I've never said a Christian is perfect and can't sin. The Bible does not say that. It does say a person who claims to be a Christian but who hates or murders is a liar. It does say that a person who continues to live a sinful LIFESTYLE (constantly living that way) while claiming to be a Christian is a liar.
Quote:
1Jn 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1Jn 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Quote:
You don't 'magicially' become incapable of doing something because of joinging a religion. Everybody is born capable of hate and yes..even killing somebody. It doesn't magically vanish because you are a christian.
Sorry, but a person who is a Christian hasn't simply "joined a religion." A true Christian is a person who has been born again according to Jesus Christ.
Again, I follow Jesus and his teachings, not you.
Quote:
Wanting to be more christ like (or how he is perceived to be) is admirable, but the illusion that you suddenly become 'perfect' the second you become a Christian is a logical fallacy. After all, does not it say.. "Come as thou art."
Again, I've never said Christians are perfect. Jesus invited everyone to come to him in repentance, submit to his gospel, and be transformed. When you truly come to him you will be transformed. Born again of the Spirit.
Quote:
In conclusion you have two choices. Christians are humans, capabable of doing anything any other human is capable of since birth..or no human has ever been a Christian. I don't realy care which you decide ..as it is your faith and not mine..but I believe you are interpreting the quoted scripture wrong ON PURPOSE to twist it to your liking. *shrugs*
And I believe you are provoking me by ON PURPOSE saying that I claim things that I do not claim. You've done that in pretty much every religion thread for a while now about the same thing.
No, I am a follower of truth. I pursue the truth ON PURPOSE where it leads me no matter the cost. I would certainly never twist the words of God.
You are wrong for accusing me of being deceptive. You are merely provoking me.
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Fauch
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 01, 2011 05:05 PM |
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Quote:
I've never said a Christian is perfect and can't sin. The Bible does not say that. It does say a person who claims to be a Christian but who hates or murders is a liar. It does say that a person who continues to live a sinful LIFESTYLE (constantly living that way) while claiming to be a Christian is a liar.
Quote:
Your claim that Christians are capable of hate and murder is quite simply false according to the Bible.
isn't there a contradiction here? though, you said "can't sin" not "can't murder" or "can't hate" so I'm not sure...
Quote:
A true Christian is a person who has been born again according to Jesus Christ.
what does that mean? 
Quote:
The very core teaching of Christianity is to love God with all that you are and to love your neighbor as yourself. A person who does not love God and man is not a Christian.
how can you love god when it is nothing more than the product of your imagination? I mean, even though he really existed, you've never met him, have you? you think you know him through what other people said about him and through the images you built from it.
Quote:
Jesus invited everyone to come to him in repentance, submit to his gospel, and be transformed. When you truly come to him you will be transformed.
it still sounds like a sect guru, can anyone else ensures that Jesus acted this way? I find it pretentious to claim that people should follow your teachings.
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baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 01, 2011 05:50 PM |
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Edited by baklava at 17:50, 01 May 2011.
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Quote:
Jesus is my teacher
You should really stop skipping class then.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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Clay_Man
Known Hero
TOH gamer
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posted May 01, 2011 06:00 PM |
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Elodin, pray tell, if no Christian hates/murders, why is there a "You shall not kill" commandment? Why prohibit something you are incapable of in the first place?
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Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
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posted May 01, 2011 06:52 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
I've never said a Christian is perfect and can't sin. The Bible does not say that. It does say a person who claims to be a Christian but who hates or murders is a liar. It does say that a person who continues to live a sinful LIFESTYLE (constantly living that way) while claiming to be a Christian is a liar.
Quote:
Your claim that Christians are capable of hate and murder is quite simply false according to the Bible.
isn't there a contradiction here? though, you said "can't sin" not "can't murder" or "can't hate" so I'm not sure...
Huh? I never wrote Christians can't sin. Perhaps you need to put on your glasses!  I in fact said, "I never said a Christian is perfect." Christians do sin from time to time but do not have a lifestyle of sinning. And the sins of murder and hate a Chritisn never commits.
Quote:
Quote:
A true Christian is a person who has been born again according to Jesus Christ.
what does that mean?
Quote:
The very core teaching of Christianity is to love God with all that you are and to love your neighbor as yourself. A person who does not love God and man is not a Christian.
how can you love god when it is nothing more than the product of your imagination? I mean, even though he really existed, you've never met him, have you? you think you know him through what other people said about him and through the images you built from it.
You have faith God does not exist. I know he does.  Moreover, I have lots of evidence that he does. You have nothing but your faith to say that he does not exist.
A number of things point to the existence of God:
1) The universe:
It is quite impossible that the universe came into being from absolute nothing without a cause. We know from the observations of the COBE satellite and Hubble telescope that the universe is not eternal, it had a definite beginning. Prior to such observations atheists pinned their faith and arguments on the assumption of an eternal universe. Now it seems atheism is left devoid of any rational argument in its favor.
Also, the laws of thermodynamics make it clear the universe is not eternal. Entropy assures the universe is proceeding to heat death. The universe simply could not have produced itself out of absolute nothing without a cause.
The first cause of the universe had to be timeless, spaceless, self-existent, immaterial, intelligent, wise, and personal. God, as described in the Bible.
Atheism is dead as a rational religion but you are free to cling to its rotting corpse.
2) I have the witness of the Bible, history, and prophecy.
3) I have the witness of the Spirit of God.
4) I have the witness of my own human spirit.
5) I have the witness of fellow believers.
Nothing bears witness to the atheist dogma that "No god exists."
Quote:
Quote:
Jesus invited everyone to come to him in repentance, submit to his gospel, and be transformed. When you truly come to him you will be transformed.
it still sounds like a sect guru, can anyone else ensures that Jesus acted this way? I find it pretentious to claim that people should follow your teachings.
I've never said anyone should follow my teachings so your statement is deceptive. My beliefs are based the Bible. I encourage you to read it. I do not encourage anyone to follow me but to fix their eyes on Jesus. Spiritual truths are revealed through the Spirit of God as you seek his face. If you do not hunger and thirst for truth don't expect to be filled.
Quote:
Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
Joh 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Joh 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and snowmongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Quote:
Elodin, pray tell, if no Christian hates/murders, why is there a "You shall not kill" commandment? Why prohibit something you are incapable of in the first place?
The Ten Commandments were written before Christ's sacrifice of himself to establish the New Covenant with God.
Moreover, the Ten Commandments was not to remove sin or prevent sin from occurring but the show people that they fall short of what God requires of them. To point out their need for grace and mercy. Ultimately a "schoolmaster" to point to the need for a Savior.
Quote:
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For snowmongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
The Law does not give you the ability to live how God wants you to live. The Spirit does.
Quote:
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
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Revelation
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