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JollyJoker
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posted July 13, 2011 06:51 AM |
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You should train your reading comprehension.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted July 13, 2011 03:51 PM |
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@JJ
Just for my clarity; when you wrote that they do not follow JP were you talking about the priests at the site or ones you've encountered in life?
I believe that John Paul taught Hell accurately but as usual with Faith, I will not know that till a future time, or not at all in the event my belief is false.
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Fauch
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posted July 13, 2011 04:27 PM |
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it's just a concept, you can't really be accurate about it like you can be accurate when describing a picture for example.
the one thing that makes the strength of it is how many people believe in the exact same definition.
if you take a boat and most people say it's a sheep, that doesn't make it a sheep, it's something that physically exists and obviously it is a boat.
the difference with hell is that it isn't something that exists outside people's minds.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 13, 2011 04:46 PM |
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I was talking about the answer they seem to have given. If you read carefully, you'll see thaat it's not a simple yes-no answer and neither a clear or straightforward one - and not free of contradictions.
There have been many in the Catholic church who think that JP has been too... liberal and modern. His ideas about Heaven, Hell und Purgatory are among them - although it's in fact only transferring the concepts into modern times, making them much more ... let's say believable for lack of a better word.
With him, God's not sitting there and judging, with him the people basically can either stand scrutiny and presence of god and be honest, trying to see through their flaws and faults and excuses, or they don't, trying to hide from God, not wanting to be part of it and so on.
So THEY shut out GOD, and God respects that and leaves them outside of himself and therefore of anything, which is, if you think about it, one HELL of a scary notion, pun intended.
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted July 13, 2011 11:09 PM |
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Elodin
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posted July 13, 2011 11:11 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 23:15, 13 Jul 2011.
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The priests called hell a PLACE in the beginning and end of their answer. They went on to say that place is described with various illustrations that we humans can understand showing it to be a place of suffering and alienation from God.
They confirmed that John Paul taught a LITERAL hell.
Quote:
Yes, there is a hell. It is a place of total alienation from God and one another.
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There is a hell, and Pope John Paul II in his Wednesday audiences describes a LITERAL HELL. Hell is hell. Eternal pain is eternal pain. Eternal alienation is eternal alienation. No one who is Christian disputes that there is a REAL place called hell.
Hell is a terrible place where the only manifestation of God is divine wrath. A torment that goes on forever and from which there is no reprieve.
Quote:
Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2011 08:04 AM |
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It's not about what your strange priests say. It's about what John Paul said.
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Elodin
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posted July 14, 2011 04:28 PM |
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Quote:
It's not about what your strange priests say. It's about what John Paul said.
The priests are not "my" priests nor is their any evidence that they are "strange." Unfortunately many atheists often resort to smears and name calling when proven wrong.
The priests are priests of the Catholic church. They graciously answered the question I submitted to them. You don't like their answer because it is yet more evidence that you are wrong.
I previously pointed out the several instances of John Paul calling hell a "place." The group of priests called hell a "place" and confirmed John Paul's teaching that hell is a "real" and "literal" place of eternal suffering. I previously quoted Bible verses that say hell is a place of eternal suffering.
You have been thoroughly proven wrong. Everyone is wrong on occasion. There is no reason why an atheist should think he is better able to understand the Pope than a group of Catholic priests is. I certainly disagree with the Catholic church on a number of things but their teaching on hell as being a place of eternal torment is correct.
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JollyJoker
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posted July 14, 2011 06:44 PM |
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It doesn't help when you repeat this a thousand times.
When it comes to the question of what John Paul said, the only authority is - not surprisingly - John Paul. Everyone can read his - not too difficult to understand - words.
I don't need an interpreter for them, since they are pretty clear. If some "priests" prefer to interpret them dogmatically - or, more correctly, try to keep those words in compliance with the dogma -, that's a completely normal, but still no less unfortunate practise which is not limited to churches either.
What these priests say, is pretty embarrassing - it holds people for more stupid then they tend to be.
I repeat my question, that if hell is "total separation from everything" - how can that be a "place". As soon as you are in a "place" , you are not separated from everything, obviously. What is with the other inhabitants of that "place", for example? What is with the pain - you are not separated from outside influences CAUSING you pain either...
So describing hell as a "state", like John Paul does, even if there seem to be people who are have a serious problem with reading comprehension, is pretty accurate, if in fact you do define hell as separation from everything, which he does. Because if you do - and that's something even those priests are not denying - there is no way to describe hell as a place anymore, where god sends people to suffer from hellfire in all eternity.
Ah, but since there's nothing like the promise of burning eternally at the stake, when it comes to scaring the simple folks into pious docility - and provoking righteous gleefulness when imagining the fate of a stubborn wrongdoer, yup, hell has to be a place where the irredeemable sinners have to BURNNNNNN, not choosing some piss-poor state of total separation from everything which sounds like a bloody vacation more than anything else.
Yes.
HELLFIRE ETERNAL!
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Fauch
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posted July 14, 2011 08:27 PM |
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total separation from everything, I understand it from a psychological point of view. doesn't it means egoism / egotism? not in the sense of a real, physical separation, but your mind creates a separation between you and the others
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted July 14, 2011 09:15 PM |
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Why would you even talk about one's mind if one's mind dies with one's death?
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Fauch
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posted July 14, 2011 10:14 PM |
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is hell supposed to be after death?
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SkrentyzMienty
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posted July 14, 2011 10:28 PM |
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Not sure about other religions, but in Christian beliefs, oui.
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Fauch
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posted July 15, 2011 01:08 AM |
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not in buddhism, if I understand well, the samsara is to be understood as hell. samsara : the cycle of reincarnations. it is all the different lives that a human lives. there are supposed to be filled with pain and suffering (I mean, it's not the usual meaning of pain and suffering) and you have to free yourself from your ego to quit this cycle, as the end of the ego means the end of the pain (psychological pain of course)
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Shyranis
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posted July 15, 2011 04:36 PM |
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The point of this thread:
You'll find out when you die.
Period.
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Twitter.
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