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Now, I'm sure, Elodin, you will start with your usual ritual of denying this: No, humans are no failure, no, God did everything right, no, it's all the free decisions of humans who can freely decide, and so on.

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As for the sacrifice: Mvass, you forget one thing: pride A creator, infinitely smarter and more powerful, allows his own creation to ridicule and spit on him, even "kill" him. That's a pretty massive sacrifice of pride, dignity and alike, I'd say.

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Markkur:
How is the sacrifice of an all-powerful omniscient being even remotely a sacrifice? Death means nothing to God - His earthly incarnation could be killed a hundred times and come back each time. How is this a sacrifice at all?

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And if you think sin is about sinning against others - that's only a small part of it. Man is inherently fallen and sinful - the very existence of a post-Fall man is in constant sin.

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Oh, the predictability of it...

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Now, I'm sure, Elodin, you will start with your usual ritual of denying this: No, humans are no failure, no, God did everything right, no, it's all the free decisions of humans who can freely decide, and so on.

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Even as a theist you should see a logical flaw in this bible-tale. Let's pretend god exists and he came down to Earth as Jesus; how, HOW, do the actions of one man bring salvation to all of humanity? "God" died HIMSELF to bring salvation to the "sinful" humans that he kicked out of "Eden" HIMSELF"? Where is the human part to make humanity actually EARN this?

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1Co 15:20  But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21  For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23  But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

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Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Joh 1:12  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13  Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

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Oh, the predictability of it...

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Now, I'm sure, Elodin, you will start with your usual ritual of denying this: No, humans are no failure, no, God did everything right, no, it's all the free decisions of humans who can freely decide, and so on.

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Yes, it is predictable that I will tell the truth and the some will object to me telling the truth.

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You mean, he's a hypocrite?

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is the King a hypocrite for asking people to bow before him, but not bowing before people himself?

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A human being can't EARN salvation. It is a gift to those willing to turn to God from their sins.

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The King is a hypocrite for telling people the right and moral way to behave, and threatening to punish them if they don't behave that way, yet he doesn't behave that way himself.

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You misunderstood again. Why couldn't he give that "gift" before Jesus, and he can after Jesus' death? What actually changed ABOUT HUMANS?

Why do people even believe in god anyway? It's bizarre.

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Rom 3:21  But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22  Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23  For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24  Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Rom 3:26  To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

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The King is a hypocrite for telling people the right and moral way to behave, and threatening to punish them if they don't behave that way, yet he doesn't behave that way himself.

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God always behaves in a completely moral way and sees the big picture that little minds are incapable of seeing. Someone has to make the rules and God has all knowledge and has lived life as a man as well. No one is better qualified for making the rules.
...
God is not only loving, he is righteous and just. Sin had to be punished. In order to remain just while still showing mercy he chose to bear the penalty for sin himself for those who would turn to him..

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In fact, what I experienced in terms of love and hope to have given feels worlds apart from what God does.

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@ Corribus
No loving parent would ever punish a child with
death
everlasting damnation
everlasting torture

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Rev 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Rev 21:7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

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I mean, let's face it: I think we know, that with the right genes and the right education, becoming evil is basically impossible. We also know that with the wrong genes and the wrong "education" becoming evil is basically guaranteed.

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It doesn't look like God had invested much in terms of genes and education into his children.

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Everything I know and have known about love works different. Love comes with a certain... awe or respect. That's why loving people are generally loathe to slap or beat people they love. Obviously God feels not in the least like this. The idea makes us chuckle. God in awe before the humans?

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Zep 3:17  The LORD thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing.

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Luk 15:17  And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
Luk 15:18  I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19  And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20  And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21  And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
Luk 15:22  But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
Luk 15:23  And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
Luk 15:24  For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

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In studies on college students, atheists and agnostics reported more anger at God during their lifetimes than believers. A separate study also found this pattern among bereaved individuals. This phenomenon is something Exline and colleagues will explore more in future research, which is open to more participants.

It seems that more religious people are less likely to feel angry at God and more likely to see his intentions as well-meaning, Exline's research found.

And younger people tend to be angrier at God than older people, Exline said. She says some of the reasons she's seen people the angriest at God include rejection from preferred colleges and sports injuries preventing high schoolers from competing.

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The one social group that takes exception to this rule is atheists. They claim to believe that God does not exist and yet, according to empirical studies, tend to be the people most angry at him.

A new set of studies in the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology finds that atheists and agnostics report anger toward God either in the past or anger focused on a hypothetical image of what they imagine God must be like. Julie Exline, a psychologist at Case Western Reserve University and the lead author of this recent study, has examined other data on this subject with identical results. Exline explains that her interest was first piqued when an early study of anger toward God revealed a counterintuitive finding: Those who reported no belief in God reported more grudges toward him than believers.

   At first glance, this finding seemed to reflect an error. How could people be angry with God if they did not believe in God? Reanalyses of a second dataset revealed similar patterns: Those who endorsed their religious beliefs as “atheist/agnostic” or “none/unsure” reported more anger toward God than those who reported a religious affiliation.


Exline notes that the findings raised questions of whether anger might actually affect belief in God’s existence, an idea consistent with social science’s previous clinical findings on “emotional atheism.”

   Studies in traumatic events suggest a possible link between suffering, anger toward God, and doubts about God’s existence. According to Cook and Wimberly (1983), 33% of parents who suffered the death of a child reported doubts about God in the first year of bereavement. In another study, 90% of mothers who had given birth to a profoundly retarded child voiced doubts about the existence of God (Childs, 1985). Our survey research with undergraduates has focused directly on the association between anger at God and self-reported drops in belief (Exline et al., 2004). In the wake of a negative life event, anger toward God predicted decreased belief in God’s existence.


The most striking finding was that when Exline looked only at subjects who reported a drop in religious belief, their faith was least likely to recover if anger toward God was the cause of their loss of belief. In other words, anger toward God may not only lead people to atheism but give them a reason to cling to their disbelief.

I've argued elsewhere that, according to the Christian tradition, atheism is a form of self-imposed intellectual dysfunction, a lack of epistemic virtue, or—to borrow a term from my Catholic friends—a case of vincible ignorance.

Vincible ignorance is intentional suppression of knowledge that is within an individual’s control and for which he is responsible before God. In Romans, St. Paul is clear that atheism is a case of vincible ignorance: “For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.” Acknowledging the existence of God is just the beginning—we must also recognize several of his divine attributes. Atheists who deny this reality are, as St. Paul said, without excuse. They are vincibly ignorant.

Recognizing this fact, however, does not mean that the cause of this self-imposed dysfunction has been understood. While I firmly believe all forms of atheism are instances of both vincible ignorance and an obstinacy of will, I've sometimes mistakenly assumed it to be a purely intellectual failing—a matter of the head, not the heart. Only recently have I begun to appreciate how much the emotional response to pain and suffering can push a person to an atheistic worldview.

Most pastors and priests would find my epiphany to be both obvious and overdue. But I suspect I’m not the only amateur apologist who has been blinded to this truth. As a general rule, those of us engaged in Christian apologists tend to prefer the philosophical to the pastoral, the crisp structure of logical argument to the messiness of human emotion. We often favor the quick-witted response that dismisses the problem of evil rather than patient empathy, which consoles atheists that we too are perplexed by suffering.

Many atheists do, of course, proceed to their denial of God based solely on rational justifications. That is why evidentialist and philosophical approaches to apologetics will always be necessary. But I'm beginning to suspect that emotional atheism is far more common than many realize. We need a new apologetic approach that takes into account that the ordinary pain and sufferings of life leads more people away from God than a library full of anti-theist books. Focusing solely on the irate sputterings of the imperfectly intellectual New Atheists may blind us to the anger and suffering that is adding new nonbelievers to their ranks.

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That's because there is no middle ground. You either believe in a god or you don't.

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