|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
posted April 23, 2011 06:17 PM |
|
Edited by Corribus at 18:18, 23 Apr 2011.
|
STRAWMAN ALERT
That's not what Doomforge is saying at all.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 06:19 PM |
|
|
btw,
Quote:
Words have meaning.
such as "the world was made in 7 days". Do you take that literally too, or just apply relativity whenever you feel like it? 
oh well, why do I even bother. Happy Easter, Elodin.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 06:56 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 18:57, 23 Apr 2011.
|
|
Whatever the case is, the Christianity will lose a lot if the "materialistic" perception of Hell is substituted by something more abstract. After all, as a religion it is heavily based on the fear of the consequences from going astray and the Devil and the Hell - the fear factor - supply much more Christians than God and his Kingdom - the love factor. It's like the repressive machinery of the secular state - you commit a crime, you face sanctions, thus you'd better not break the law. And this prevents much more crimes than the sole "respect for the other human beings" or whatever.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 07:11 PM |
|
|
Eternal death does seem pretty cruel fate though when all other peeps get eternal life. You really don't need to suffer.
It's hard to picture a "fair" trial, actually. Going by Elodin's logic, there's two paths - you either get eternal happiness, or eternal torture. What's with people that didn't make it to "heaven" - but just barely? The same fate for mass murderers/sadists/cannibals/wahtever and a guy that wasn't a saint, but never really did anything that bad doesn't seem just, really
It makes just much more sense to have no "punishment" of such severity. YOu followed God- he cares for you. You haven't - he doesn't, you stay dead. Seems more... fair.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 07:17 PM |
|
|
Well who said life death was fair?
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 07:18 PM |
|
|
God?
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 07:28 PM |
|
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 09:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
btw,
Quote:
Words have meaning.
such as "the world was made in 7 days". Do you take that literally too, or just apply relativity whenever you feel like it?
The Bible certainly uses metaphors, hyperboles, parables, and other figures of speech. However, Jesus' stern warning is that everyone will be judged based on their actions on earth, there is a literal hell that is literal torment literally forever and ever. He says to do whatever it takes to get sin out of your life so you won't go there.
I've dealt with the question of the "days" of creation in a number of threads. The Hebrew word translated "day" there is not restricted to a 24 hour day and can be translated age/eon. Also, reading the book of Genesis you will find no mention that the seventh day ever ended. The Bible is a book about the redemption of man, not about the minute details of how God created things.
The book of Hebrews says we are in that seventh day, the "day" of rest", the day of salvation. It warns that the offer of salvation must be accepted during this "day." The next "day" is the day of judgement.
Anyways, I have presented what the Bible says about the subject of hell. You can chose to reject what it says or not.
|
|
SkrentyzMienty
Famous Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 10:23 PM |
|
|
|
This argument's pointless as there is no life OR suffering after death.
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 10:54 PM |
|
|
Quote:
you either get eternal happiness, or eternal torture. What's with people that didn't make it to "heaven" - but just barely?
There is no such thing as "barely". Either you try to follow the teachings of Jesus to the honest best of your ability, admit that you're sinful, and beg for forgiveness, or you don't. If you do, you go to heaven. If you don't, you go to hell. There's no room for "barely" in there.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 09:42 AM |
|
|
Quote:
There's no room for "barely" in there.
Huh? Take the meanest of villains and take a random John Smith, atheist... they both will suffer for eternity? that's fair?
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 10:08 AM |
|
|
It's not fair - it's Christianity. 
Now you see one of the many things wrong with it.
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 10:29 AM |
|
|
Quote:
It's not fair - it's Christianity.
Now you see one of the many things wrong with it.
Depends on interpretation. Elodin's one is rather unfair.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 11:10 AM |
|
|
Except God is perfectly good and omniscient, and if He made it that way, then He is just and humans are wrong/fallen/sinful/etc.
Again, see how evil Christianity is?
____________
Eccentric Opinion
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 11:22 AM |
|
|
Quote:
Again, see how evil Christianity is?
nope
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 02:43 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 14:48, 24 Apr 2011.
|
Quote:
Except God is perfectly good and omniscient, and if He made it that way, then He is just and humans are wrong/fallen/sinful/etc.
Again, see how evil Christianity is?
Nah, the most evil religion of all, based on the actions of its followers, is atheism, since atheists are responsible for more deaths in the past 100 years than all other religions combined for all of recorded history.
Christianity teaches one to love everyone, pray for everyone, and seek the good of everyone. Such concepts are foreign to the implication of atheism which logically results in one seeking only what he desires and what is best for himself.
Christianity teaches that God seeks everyone and everyone has the opportunity to respond to his wooing. If a person rejects the light God gives he has only himself to blame.
No one has an excuse for his sin.
Quote:
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
There will be degrees of punishment in hell. Not all sin is equal and people will be punished accordingly.
1. Christ tells Pilate that the Jewish leaders have committed a worse sin than him, saying “he who has handed me over to you has committed the greater sin” (Jn. 19:11).
2. Certain sins in the law are distinguished in a particular context as an abomination to God, implying that others are not as severe (e.g. Lev. 18:22; Deut. 7:25, Deut. 23:18, Isa. 41:24).
3. Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is set apart as a more severe sin than blasphemy of the Son (Matt. 12:31)
4. Proverbs 6:16-19 lists particular sins in such a way as to single them out because of their depraved nature, separating them from others.
5. There are degrees of punishment in Hell depending on the severity of the offense (Lk. 12:47-48).
6. Christ often evaluates the sin of the Pharisees as greater than the sins of others. “You strain out a gnat while you swallow a camel” (Matt. 23:24). If all sins are equal, Christ’s rebuke does not make any sense. (See also Lk. 20:46-47)
7. Related to the last, Christ also talked about the “weighter things of the law” (Matt. 23:23). If all sins are equal, there is no law (or violation of that law) that is “weightier than others.” They are all the same weight.
8. Unforgiveness is continually referred to as a particularly heinous sin (Matt. 6:14-15; 18:23-35).
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 03:43 PM |
|
|
^: Sorry, but you are not allowed to use a No true scotsman as a argument against your own religion. If you do, the same applies to Stalin and Mao, people who never where atheists in the first place.
A atheist can not be definiton be a group, because they have nothing in common or to discuss. They would come together as normal people talking over normals things, which by definition is not what religion people do when they gather around and discuss religious things.
Besides, if I believe I am the chosen one, I can't be a atheist
____________
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 04:12 PM |
|
|
Quote:
^: Sorry, but you are not allowed to use a No true scotsman as a argument against your own religion. If you do, the same applies to Stalin and Mao, people who never where atheists in the first place.
A atheist can not be definiton be a group, because they have nothing in common or to discuss. They would come together as normal people talking over normals things, which by definition is not what religion people do when they gather around and discuss religious things.
Besides, if I believe I am the chosen one, I can't be a atheist
1) You say "religious" people [theists in your definition] are not normal yet it is atheists who are abnormal. Most people who have ever lived have been theists.
2) Learn what "no true Scotsman" means. You, like many atheists, use the term incorrectly as applied to Christians.
A person who claims to be a Christian but who does not follow the teachings of Christ cannot in fact be a follower of Christ. That is not a "no true Scotsman" argument. That is simple logic.
3) Atheists often gather around and discuss their religious dogma. Anti-theist atheists (most atheists on this site seem to fall in that category) point their bony fingers at other religions and condemn them as being evil, ect. You claim atheists don't group together but the OSM proves your claim to be incorrect. Atheists join like a pack of rabid dogs and attack whoever puts forward an idea that conflicts with the religion of atheism. You can see that in any of the religion threads in the OSM. In the real world there are also anti-theist groups like "Freedom from Religion" that Dawkins is a member of that seeks to take away the religious freedoms of others.
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 04:20 PM |
|
|
^: Words have meanings, and you can't dodge what I have said.
1. is a zero argument, remeber that the worst kind of society you can image will work perfectly if it is set into action(a society based on rape, genocide, poisoning and torture, etc)
2. I recommend you to do the same
I can apply no true scotsman to atheists just like you do that to Christans, equality is equal after all.
3. What is wrong with demanding the same of religious people that you do with doctors, or philosophers? Which means that you demand that they do not get a moral highground without justification, because they lack one in the first place.
Besides: If there is no evidence of God, there is logic that no God exists, hence all faith about a God would then be a mental desillusion. Hence you are insane.
See what I did there? A lot more valid than your attempt at the no true scotsman.
____________
|
|
Vlaad
Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
|
|
posted April 24, 2011 04:33 PM |
|
|
Quote:
it is atheists who are abnormal.
Quote:
the most evil religion of all
Quote:
their bony fingers
Quote:
join like a pack of rabid dogs
Come on, del_diablo, don't you feel the love? 
|
|
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
