|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
posted April 21, 2011 08:33 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 20:34, 21 Apr 2011.
|
Quote:
I'm not wrong because describing hell and eternal damnation is a dogmnatic question - I said nothing else. Many people make the mistake and assume that the Pope's infallability was a general thing, but it's simply limited to his function as religious leader. The Pope can err as a human, when he says something about, say, economics, he even can err as a human and sin - but he cannot err (at least that's the dogma) in questions of Catholic teaching, interpretation of the Bible and God's word and so on.
Which is the case here.
Again, it would be nice if you would do some research before you open your mouth and make false statements about the teachings of the Catholic church.
The Catholic church says a pope can indeed teach error unless he is speaking "ex cathedra." Please read below to educate yourself.
Clicky
Quote:
Statements by a pope that exercise papal infallibility are referred to as solemn papal definitions or ex cathedra teachings. These should not be confused with teachings that are infallible because of a solemn definition by an ecumenical council, or with teachings that are infallible in virtue of being taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. For details on these other kinds of infallible teachings, see Infallibility of the Church.
According to the teaching of the First Vatican Council and Catholic tradition, the conditions required for ex cathedra teaching are as follows:
1. "the Roman Pontiff"
2. "speaks ex cathedra" ("that is, when in the discharge of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians, and by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority….")
3. "he defines"
4. "that a doctrine concerning faith or morals"
5. "must be held by the whole Church" (Pastor Aeternus, chap. 4)
For a teaching by a pope or ecumenical council to be recognized as infallible, the teaching must make it clear that the Church is to consider it definitive and binding. There is not any specific phrasing required for this, but it is usually indicated by one or both of the following:
a verbal formula indicating that this teaching is definitive (such as "We declare, decree and define..."), or
an accompanying anathema stating that anyone who deliberately dissents is outside the Catholic Church.
For example, in 1950, with Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII's infallible definition regarding the Assumption of Mary, there are attached these words:
Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
An infallible teaching by a pope or ecumenical council can contradict previous Church teachings, as long as they were not themselves taught infallibly. In this case, the previous fallible teachings are immediately made void. Of course, an infallible teaching cannot contradict a previous infallible teaching, including the infallible teachings of the Holy Bible or Holy Tradition. Also, due to the sensus fidelium, an infallible teaching cannot be subsequently contradicted by the Catholic Church, even if that subsequent teaching is in itself fallible.
In July 2005 Pope Benedict XVI asserted during an impromptu address to priests in Aosta that: "The Pope is not an oracle; he is infallible in very rare situations, as we know."[11]
And of course reading the words of John Paul, the FACT is John Paul said people will be judged after they die. The FACT is he said "hell is....the ultimate consequence of sin itself."
The FACT is he said hell is "eternal suffering", as I quoted his words. The FACT is that in Italian he did not say that hell is not a place but that it is "More than a place." The FACT is that he said, "hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain," and "the place destined for evildoers." Tha FACT is that John Paul did indeed teach that there is a literal hell.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 08:52 PM |
|
|
I really really really really don't want to get involved in this.
But
The passage you originally quoted, Elodin, was: "In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life."
First, he said hell is a consquence of sin. That says nothing about whether it is a place or a state of being. In fact, in the very next sentence he says it's a "state".
Whatever, doesn't matter.
What I want to say is that the boundaries of your quoted passage remove all context that could be meaningful. The first sentence says, "In a theological sense however, hell is something else."
I want to know - compared to what? If you have all of what was said, could you provide it? What came immediately before this?
|
|
del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 08:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Again, it would be nice if you would do some research before you open your mouth and make false statements about the teachings of the Catholic church.
But he is telling the truth, and thus you are making false statments about him!
____________
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 09:34 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 21:36, 21 Apr 2011.
|
Quote:
I really really really really don't want to get involved in this.
But
The passage you originally quoted, Elodin, was: "In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father’s mercy, even at the last moment of their life."
First, he said hell is a consquence of sin. That says nothing about whether it is a place or a state of being. In fact, in the very next sentence he says it's a "state".
If you go back and reread my posts you will see I said John Paul called hell a place, but more than a place. He said it is also a state of being. He referred to hell as a place a number of times and said that the Bible uses symbolic language of the place. He said people who don't know God are in the "state" of hell even before they die (a statement I disagree with since the Bible only describes hell as a place.)
You will note that John Paul said it is through Jesus that one is saved from "going to hell."
John Paul's "speech" to the pilgrims is linked to several times in the discussion. It is fairly short. Here it is in its entirety.
Quote:
At the General Audience of Wednesday, 28 July 1999, the Holy Father reflected on hell as the definitive rejection of God. In his catechesis, the Pope said that care should be taken to interpret correctly the images of hell in Sacred Scripture, and explained that "hell is the ultimate consequence of sin itself... Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy".
1. God is the infinitely good and merciful Father. But man, called to respond to him freely, can unfortunately choose to reject his love and forgiveness once and for all, thus separating himself for ever from joyful communion with him. It is precisely this tragic situation that Christian doctrine explains when it speaks of eternal damnation or hell. It is not a punishment imposed externally by God but a development of premises already set by people in this life. The very dimension of unhappiness which this obscure condition brings can in a certain way be sensed in the light of some of the terrible experiences we have suffered which, as is commonly said, make life "hell".
In a theological sense however, hell is something else: it is the ultimate consequence of sin itself, which turns against the person who committed it. It is the state of those who definitively reject the Father's mercy, even at the last moment of their life.
Hell is a state of eternal damnation
2. To describe this reality Sacred Scripture uses a symbolical language which will gradually be explained. In the Old Testament the condition of the dead had not yet been fully disclosed by Revelation. Moreover it was thought that the dead were amassed in Sheol, a land of darkness (cf. Ez. 28:8; 31:14; Jb. 10:21f.; 38:17; Ps 30:10; 88:7, 13), a pit from which one cannot reascend (cf. Jb. 7:9), a place in which it is impossible to praise God (cf. Is 38:18; Ps 6:6).
The New Testament sheds new light on the condition of the dead, proclaiming above all that Christ by his Resurrection conquered death and extended his liberating power to the kingdom of the dead.
Redemption nevertheless remains an offer of salvation which it is up to people to accept freely. This is why they will all be judged "by what they [have done]" (Rv 20:13). By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers as a fiery furnace, where people will "weep and gnash their teeth" (Mt 13:42; cf. 25:30, 41), or like Gehenna with its "unquenchable fire" (Mk 9:43). All this is narrated in the parable of the rich man, which explains that hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk. 16:19-3 1).
The Book of Revelation also figuratively portrays in a "pool of fire" those who exclude themselves from the book of life, thus meeting with a "second death" (Rv. 20:13f.). Whoever continues to be closed to the Gospel is therefore preparing for 'eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might" (2 Thes 1:9).
3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather* than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: "To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell'" (n. 1033).
"Eternal damnation", therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state.
We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
4. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying "yes" or "no", which marks the human creature's freedom, some have already said no. They are the spiritual creatures that rebelled against God's love and are called demons (cf. Fourth Lateran Council, DS 800-801). What happened to them is a warning to us: it is a continuous call to avoid the tragedy which leads to sin and to conform our life to that of Jesus who lived his life with a "yes" to God.
Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it. The thought of hell — and even less the improper use of biblical images — must not create anxiety or despair, but is a necessary and healthy reminder of freedom within the proclamation that the risen Jesus has conquered Satan, giving us the, Spirit of God who makes us cry "Abba, Father!" (Rm. 8:15; Gal. 4:6).
This prospect, rich in hope, prevails in Christian proclamation. It is effectively reflected in the liturgical tradition of the Church, as the words of the Roman Canon attest: "Father, accept this offering from your whole family ... save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen".
To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors, the Holy Father said.
I am pleased to greet the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors present at today's audience, especially those from England, Scotland, Nigeria, Hong Kong and the United States of America. I wish you a pleasant visit to Christian Rome and I invoke upon you the grace and peace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
*[Note: The original Italian says, "(Più che) More than a place, hell indicates..." This suggests correctly that although hell is not essentially "a place," rather the definitive loss of God, confinement is included. Thus, after the general resurrection the bodies of the damned, being bodies not spirits, must be in "some place," in which they will receive the punishment of fire.] return to text.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 09:40 PM |
|
|
He may have a point with the infallability - I wouldn't be surprised if the snows did cover their behinds sometime last century; reading that it sounds like a hundred lawyers clonsidered it a year.
Anyway, so Catholics CAN say something against what he said.
Doesn't change anything about WHAT he said.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 09:48 PM |
|
|
Quote:
Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God's judgement ratifies this state.
We are saved from going to hell by Jesus who conquered Satan
4. Christian faith teaches that in taking the risk of saying "yes" or "no", which marks the human creature's freedom, some have already said no.
Elodin, he didn't say the part you bolt-printed. the site you copied it from made it up.
This is the original Vatican link:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/1999/documents/hf_jp-ii_aud_28071999_en.html
Making up quotes, adding to it, is a pretty serious offense when it comes to being truthful.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 10:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
He may have a point with the infallability - I wouldn't be surprised if the snows did cover their behinds sometime last century; reading that it sounds like a hundred lawyers clonsidered it a year.
Anyway, so Catholics CAN say something against what he said.
Doesn't change anything about WHAT he said.
Wow, calling Catholics "snows" is way out of line!! If I said the same of atheists there would be crys for me to be banned.
At least you admitted you were wrong about the doctrine of infallibility. Now for the matter of a literal hell.
Quote:
Elodin, he didn't say the part you bolt-printed. the site you copied it from made it up.
Ah, I see, one of the things was a comment of his. The site author did not clearly distinguish his own comments from those of John Paul. But I would doubt he was trying to falsely attribute a saying to John Paul, unlike some have tried to do.
John Paul clearly states hell is "the place destined for evildoers" and that "hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-31)."
Therefore your claim that John Paul taught that there is no literal hell is in fact false.
|
|
gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
|
|
posted April 21, 2011 11:16 PM |
|
|
Quote:
John Paul clearly states hell is "the place destined for evildoers" and that "hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-31)."
Therefore your claim that John Paul taught that there is no literal hell is in fact false.
Actually, later in the letter, he says this:
Quote:
3. The images of hell that Sacred Scripture presents to us must be correctly interpreted. They show the complete frustration and emptiness of life without God. Rather than a place, hell indicates the state of those who freely and definitively separate themselves from God, the source of all life and joy. This is how the Catechism of the Catholic Church summarizes the truths of faith on this subject: “To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called ‘hell’” (n. 1033).
“Eternal damnation”, therefore, is not attributed to God's initiative because in his merciful love he can only desire the salvation of the beings he created. In reality, it is the creature who closes himself to his love. Damnation consists precisely in definitive separation from God, freely chosen by the human person and confirmed with death that seals his choice for ever. God’s judgement ratifies this state.
____________
Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 22, 2011 07:55 AM |
|
|
Quote:
John Paul clearly states hell is "the place destined for evildoers" and that "hell is a place of eternal suffering, with no possibility of return, nor of the alleviation of pain (cf. Lk 16:19-31)."
Therefore your claim that John Paul taught that there is no literal hell is in fact false.
You are obviously unable to understand the difference between citing a source and stating something yourself, which is a pity. The only question that remains is whether you are just PLAYING the fool - but the answer is actually irrelevant, the important thing here is the result, and that's quite massively lacking.
A last comment on snows. Beside the fact that I literally wrote snow and nothing offensive, it's clear I mean the official Vatican bureaucracy who sometime in the past obviously started to bolster their Papal infallibility claim with a lot of "ifs" and "buts" and "provideds", to - afterwards - be able to explain away the bull that has happened in this regard in the past. It reads somewhat like the smallprint in a used-car buying contract from a dealer with an oily Nixon grin - which underlines the artificiality of the construct as a whole. Were it the real thing, you'd expect something quite SIMPLE.
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 22, 2011 09:13 AM |
|
|
John Paul said, "By using images, the New Testament presents the place destined for evildoers..." Clearly in this statement John Paul said hell is a place. He said the place is presented in the New Testament with various images such as a furnace of fire and lake of fire that present the reality of the suffering that a person in hell experiences.
His words on other occasions also make it clear that he believed in a literal hell. His teaching in that regard matches the teaching of the Roman Catholic church as I have shown.
____________
Revelation
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted April 22, 2011 09:56 AM |
|
|
|
As I said: you don't understand that this part is part of the presentation of the "history" of how hell was seen and described. It is definitely NOT John Paul's view on things which is clear when you look at the text as a whole and consider the part of the text we are in, it becomes even clearer, when you look at the word "evildoers" which is definitely not HIS word, not even a contemporary word, but a very unspecific word, that has nothing to do with how John Paul explains what eternal damnation and hell actually is.
|
|
Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 02:54 AM |
|
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 10:15 AM |
|
|
Well, to me, it was always obvious that the hell isn't a literal place and that "endless torment" doesn't exist. But hey, there are always people who take things literally.. 
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 01:13 PM |
|
Edited by Elodin at 13:17, 23 Apr 2011.
|
The Bible's teachings about hell are under attack today from what the Bible calls "false teachers" and "wolves in sheep's clothing." Some teach false doctrines because they have been deceived and some in an attempt to try to destroy the church and some for monetary gain.
It is unfortunate that Mr Bell rejects the teachings of the Holy Bible and teaches false doctrine instead. The Bible clearly speaks in numerous places of being judged after death based on our life on earth. There is no mention of a "second chance" or a reprieve from hell. In fact, the Bible says the punishment of hell is eternal and that the judgement is eternal.
I'll stick with what Jesus says since I am a follower of Jesus Christ, not of Mr Bell. Jesus clearly and repeatedly says hell is literal and forever. He spoke of the reward of eternal life with him and warned of eternal punishment in hell. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did of heaven. Over half of the references to hell in the Bible are from the lips of Jesus Christ.
Quote:
Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
....
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Quote:
Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
....
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Quote:
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Thus we see hell is a manifestation of the wrath of God. Through Jesus Christ we can be saved from that wrath.
Quote:
Heb 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
1Th 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Without both heaven and hell the cross of Christ is meaningless.
____________
Revelation
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 02:51 PM |
|
|
Ezek 18,4
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
baklava
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 02:52 PM |
|
|
Quote:
what the Bible calls "false teachers" and "wolves in sheep's clothing."
You are aware, of course, that this applies to much of the official Church too, right?
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 02:55 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You are aware, of course, that this applies to much of the official Church too, right?
It's pretty obvious Elodin considers his interpretation the only true one.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 04:19 PM |
|
|
Quote:
It's pretty obvious Elodin considers his interpretation the only true one.
I'm a follower of Jesus Christ, not of Doomforge or of Rob Bell or anyone else. Jesus quite plainly said hell is forever, is torment, and there is no escape from it once you go there.
There's not a lot of ways to interpret "Luk 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him."
Jesus plainly said the wicked are cast into hell after death.
There's not a lot of ways to interpret everlasting punishment. "Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
There's not a lot of ways to interpret "wailing and gnashing of teeth."
There's not a lot of ways to interpret "tormented day and night forever and ever."
Quote:
Ezek 18,4
The second death is not cessation of being of the soul as the words of Christ made quite plain. The New Testament reveals much more about heaven and hell than the Old Testament does.
"The second death" is being cast into hell according to the Bible. Which, also, according to the Bible results in eternal torment, an eternal punishment from which there is no rest and which is experiencing the wrath of God.
Quote:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and snowmongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
On the day of judgement both the righteous and wicked will receive new bodies. The resurrected righteous will spend eternity with God and the the resurrected wicked eternity in hell.
|
|
Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 04:44 PM |
|
|
You may repeat your opinions or interpretations as much as you like, and that will never make them true anyway to anyone but you.
____________
We reached to the stars and everything is now ours
|
|
Elodin
Promising
Legendary Hero
Free Thinker
|
|
posted April 23, 2011 05:57 PM |
|
|
Quote:
You may repeat your opinions or interpretations as much as you like, and that will never make them true anyway to anyone but you.
You are free to say that "tormented day and night forever and ever" means "shall not be tormented at all" if you wish. But I don't think that such a claim has any validity. Words have meaning.
____________
Revelation
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
