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| Thread: Israeli tourists killed in a bus explosion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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kodial79
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How'd Phi's Lov't
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posted July 24, 2012 06:46 PM |
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I don't know? It's that lunatic Netanyahu though who keeps on saying "BAAWWWWWW I want war! I want war!" like all the freaking time!
Israel itself, might not gain anything, true. Might only lose, in fact. But the big business behind it, will stand to make a lot of profit. This is my one guess. The other is, that Israel just hates everyone's guts there and they get their kicks by making their life a living hell, which is a very rational thought too. Probably both of those guesses are valid.
Now, you read that wrong. I did not say Israel wants to wipe Palestine off the map, I claimed that Israel has done this already! Just scroll back up and see that picture again posted by Ghost, see what Palestine was and what it is now.
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Geny
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 24, 2012 07:07 PM |
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I don't know? It's that lunatic Netanyahu though who keeps on saying "BAAWWWWWW I want war! I want war!" like all the freaking time!
We must be leaving in different realities if that's what you hear.
Israel is indeed swayed by US policies and demands, but it is not controlled by them. At least not to the point of starting a war because of them.
And I would like you not to throw around accusations like "Israel hates everything! It wants to see the Middle East go up in flames!!!11!!" unless you can substantiate them. To the best of my memory out of the wars Israel has been in (and it's had it share of wars), only one was started by it. And that was when Egyptian tanks practically parked at the border.
As for the map... True, when the UN made a proposal to create two separate states in Palestine, the Jewish one was significantly smaller. You know what happened then? The Jews said:"*sigh* Well, what are you gonna do? We'll have to settle for that." And the Arabs said:"THIS IS AN OUTRAGE! This land is Muslim land! We'll just open war and conquer it!" And then they lost. And while they were at it they also lost control of some of the land that was promised to them. Then there was the Six Day war where Israel occupied some more land. Some time after that the Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin approached the Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and told him that he'll give him back the land for a Peace Treaty. Sadat gladly took the Sinai Peninsula, but when offered the Gaza Strip he decided he'd be better off without it, since it looked more like a refugee camp than anything else.
What I'm trying to say is that it's all very nice throwing around slogans and pretty pictures, but the reality is much more complicated than that.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 24, 2012 07:29 PM |
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Edited by Seraphim at 21:09, 24 Jul 2012.
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Whether you like it or not, Israel did not make the first move here. Two of its soldiers were kidnapped and it moved in as a retaliation.
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So, two guys are kidnapped and the only sensible thing they can do is a military invasion. When some germans are kidnapped, germany does not initiate a fullscale invasion of that country. Israel could have bribed the thugs.
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Israel wanted to send a message, a message that sounded roughly like this: "You mess with us, you attack us, and you will so sorry you'd wish you'd never been born. So next time think carefully if it's worth it to provoke us."
By that logic "Lets use nukes next time so that you wont be alive next time to attack us". I give you credit there though. Excessive force can solve many problems.
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But before you do, I would ask you to stop for a minute and really think what your country should have done if it was invaded by foreign forces, in order to protect its citizens.
Nothing? Wars are not made to protect civil life, but for business.
If your country is invaded, your country's forces are already losing-defeated.
Dont tell me some rockets launched from Lebanon somehow counts as an invasion to israel...
This is a problem with humans in general. So I dont blame israel here. It has happened countless times before.
@kodial
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But let me ask you similar question: what would Israel gain from attacking Iran?
If israel managed to drag international support to attack Iran, its wannabe nemesis in the middle east would be gone. Israel would reign supreme.
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As for Israel wanting to wipe Palestine off the map... first of, Palestine is not a country,
You dont even know what a country is? Do you?
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From wiki:
" A country is a region legally identified as a distinct entity in political geography. A country may be an independent sovereign state or one that is occupied by another state, as a non-sovereign or formerly sovereign political division, or a geographic region associated with sets of previously independent or differently associated peoples with distinct political characteristics. Regardless of the physical geography, in the modern internationally accepted legal definition as defined by the League of Nations in 1937 and reaffirmed by the United Nations in 1945, a resident of a country is subject to the independent exercise of legal jurisdiction.
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I think that if Israel wanted to wipe Palestine off the map, it would have already done so.
No. I dont think you can wipe out or cleanse entire populations the classic Nazi German way. You can start by terrorizing citizens,bombing them each month,imposing sanctions and thus making them leave by themselves.
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Ghost
Undefeatable Hero
Therefore I am
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posted July 24, 2012 08:54 PM |
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Geny
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 24, 2012 09:20 PM |
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The reason Israel decided to go to war is the same reason USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists. Israel doesn't want the terrorist groups to think that if they just kidnap a soldier or two they can get whatever they and face any consequences.
Of course there is a limit to how much force is too much. Using nukes is way past that limit no matter how you look at it. However, sometimes you do need to use some force in order to create a deterrent and then there is also such thing as not enough force, i.e. the enemy will not get intimidated by it. I'd say that the Lebanon War was somewhere in between, although I will agree that might have been closer to the upper limit.
Wars that are conducted overseas may be made for business. Wars that come knocking at your door are not. There's just too much to lose in them. The civil war that is going on in Syria right now is not made for business, it is made for ideology, it is made because Syrian people believe that winning the war will improve their quality of life. Israel entered the Lebanon War because it believed that it will improve the quality of life of its citizens by preventing further attacks from Hezbollah.
To tell you the truth, I don't even know how to respond to sentences like "Israel will reign supreme." Who says it wants to? Israel is not a superpower. More than anything else it just wants to be left alone and live in peace. Yes, Israel sees Iran as a threat to it. It does so, because Iran stated that Israel has no right to exist, because it controls the Hezbollah and because it might get a nuclear weapon from which Israel would not be able to defend itself. No, Israel does not want to start a war with Iran, because like I already mentioned before it will cause a much bigger war, one which will cost Israel dearly even if it ends up winning.
I may have used the wrong word when referring to a country. Maybe I should have used the word state? I don't know. I'm not familiar with the differences of the words in English. The country I was talking about must have three things - people, government and borders. The Palestinian undoubtedly have people. They have a government, even though the ones in Ramallah have trouble working with the ones in Gaza, they do not have borders agreed on by the UN.
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blizzardboy
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posted July 24, 2012 09:43 PM |
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Palestine isn't considered a nation by everybody because there was no such thing as 'Palestine' prior to when the Jews were given that small chunk of the colonized Mediterranean to serve as a sanctuary. Palestine was just the name of the region, but culturally & politically, it was more or less an extension of the people's further east in Syria and Jordan, which are in themselves countries that were engineered by outside forces.
Although I'm not so sure how much any of that really matters. If the overwhelming majority of modern-day Palestinians define themselves as a nation, then nobody has any business to say that they aren't. All the same, it is incorrect to say that it is an old nation that pre-existed Israel. It is a recently emerged nation that came into being as a reaction to the creation of Israel.
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Salamandre
Admirable
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Wog refugee
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posted July 24, 2012 10:16 PM |
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Jews are intelligent and testing with each expansion the UN reaction, which is only on paper, what could they do, invade Israel?
On the other side, Israel will never consider Palestine a sovereign nation for the simple fact that they need to expand in. You can't do that with a country.
In the mean time, arabs are acting stupidly as always, going Alah-Akbar and provoking Israel which is much stronger, then they got hard slapped. A wiser approach would be to seek help at UN, kiss USA feet and become a member at United Nations, they should have aim at this from the beginning. But when religion rules you, you become blind.
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Seraphim
Supreme Hero
Knowledge Reaper
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posted July 27, 2012 12:05 AM |
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I really should not be discussiing this anymore. I see that there is absolutely no real discussion happening. This is like discussing religion with somebody religious but let me go through here one more time.
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The reason Israel decided to go to war is the same reason USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists.
Israel doesn't want the terrorist groups to think that if they just kidnap a soldier or two they can get whatever they and face any consequences.
Really? Take germans as an example. They negotiate, bribe the thugs-terrorists and nobody dies. You dont want to negotiate? Oh then, bad deal pal.
Those thugs are holding your booty and they are in control.
Attacking a whole nation because your guys have been kidnapped is pathetic or when some rockets fall. Israel can use snipers,apaches and jets to defend its borders, not invasion.
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However, sometimes you do need to use some force in order to create a deterrent and then there is also such thing as not enough force, i.e. the enemy will not get intimidated by it.
This is extremely ignorant. So,you send it 200 tanks, "Intimidate the evil guys" so that they wont attack and expect to emerge victorious.
Really? This is like a story for children.
Excessive force does not "Intimidate" people, it kills them and mostly innocents die.
I challenge you to say otherwise.
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Wars that are conducted overseas may be made for business. Wars that come knocking at your door are not.
When somebody comes knocking in your door and wants to kill you because of religious reasons or because you somehow are bad for money, that is still business.
The six day war was not a war of existence,no war ever was. A war of existence means that the existence of both or more parties is questioned. In the six day war, the arabs were not threatened by existence. The whole reason was either religious or because of money.
Even if lebannon sponsores terrorism, you are not allowed to initiate a war. Use some dialogue? Where is the snowing diplomacy there?
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The civil war that is going on in Syria right now is not made for business, it is made for ideology, it is made because Syrian people believe that winning the war will improve their quality of life.
Well sorry. Burning your own country, waging war on your own streets or else is not going to "Improve" your life. The whole ideology thing in Syria is just means so that some terrorist group,a coutnry or comply will profit there.
A war of removing a dictator,no matter of ideological, is made for business. It allows new players to arise.
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Israel entered the Lebanon War because it believed that it will improve the quality of life of its citizens by preventing further attacks from Hezbollah.
This smells like indoctrination to me. The attacks of israel did not stop rockets falling down from the guerillas, it did not stop terrorists.
Bombing a country to the stone age does not stop terrorists.
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To tell you the truth, I don't even know how to respond to sentences like "Israel will reign supreme." Who says it wants to?
This quote does not even deserve a response but I am quoting because it is the last thing I am going to post to you.
There is no reason to believe that if you, all of your friends, all the people you know or that you pretend to know, do not desire power, thus all the people you dont know dont want power.
My counter, and primitive question is then, Who says it does not want to?
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Geny
Responsible
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 27, 2012 07:41 AM |
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The difference between Germany and Israel is that Germany (to the best of my knowledge) is not under constant threat of those terrorists. They are not facing attack attempts every other week (and that's when things are going well). So, yeah, once in a while you can bribe the thugs and be done with it. But if you try to bribe the people who are always attacking you, they will only use that money/people to strengthen their attacks against you and try to kidnap more people since it worked so well in the first time.
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Attacking a whole nation because your guys have been kidnapped is pathetic or when some rockets fall. Israel can use snipers,apaches and jets to defend its borders, not invasion.
You are so very knowledgeable. Would you like the position of our Security Minister since you are clearly know so much about how to defend against guerrilla organizations? Something that, if I may add, no country really figured out how to do properly (Israel included).
Oh, and I wonder if you would hold the same opinion if one of those kidnapped guys was your father or maybe your brother, and if "some rockets" fell in your backyard and turned the wall of your house into Swiss cheese just narrowly missing your little sister.
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I challenge you to say otherwise.
Otherwise. And the peace the citizens of the north are enjoying so far is the best proof of that.
A war of existence is not when two or more parties are in danger of being wiped out, just one will suffice. For that party the war will without a doubt be a war of existence. You and I clearly have different visions of what business is. Everything seems to be business for you. Sure, in the end someone will profit from the war monetarily. But do you really believe that when the people in Syria or Egypt or Libya took up arms they had money in mind?
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The attacks of israel did not stop rockets falling down from the guerillas, it did not stop terrorists.
Again, the cold facts are that after the attack, the north part of Israel enjoyed a very long peace.
I say that Israel doesn't want to reign supreme. It isn't a colonial empire. Since day one it has been fighting to stay alive. I can understand people that question Israel's methods. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I can understand them. But claiming that Israel wants to reign over the Middle East or something of the sort, when Israel never claimed anything like that or did anything to support such claims, sounds to me like some kind of conspiracy theory.
You mentioned diplomacy somewhere along the lines. Believe me, I would love to see that work. So would many people in Israel. The peace treaties Israel has with Egypt and Jordan are proof of that. However, diplomacy doesn't always work by itself. It's naive to think it does. Because some people don't want to talk, they prefer to act. And others make the impression of wanting to talk, but when you sit down with them you realize they don't know how to negotiate because they only know how to demand. I really wish that everything could be solved with words and the whole world would just disarm itself forever. But that just isn't happening. Not any time soon.
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Zenofex
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posted July 27, 2012 09:36 AM |
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Oh, and I wonder if you would hold the same opinion if one of those kidnapped guys was your father or maybe your brother
Funny, what would you say if some of the several hundred civilians (assuming that the rest were Hezbullah militants) who were killed because of these kidnapped guys was your father or maybe your brother?
What you say is awfully one-sided and compromises the delivery of your message. Israel's attempt to defend itself is understandable, its methods aren't. You can't just start a war against every Middle Eastern country/organization that doesn't like you simply because you can't win except if you destroy the said country/organization (and then you'll just alienate the former friends and anger the former neutrals). Plus, as soon as the US runs out of funds for support, Israel will be in very deep **** and this is bound to happen at some point. As I see it, either Palestine will be recognized, granted territory and provided with enough funds to become a real state or this thing will continue ad infinitum until something really bad happens.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted July 27, 2012 10:02 AM |
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Israel doesn't fight every country/organization that doesn't like it. If it did it had to fight most of the world. It only fights those who physically attack it. In the long run, if anything will solve this thing it will be dialogue and peace talks and most probably the recognition in a Palestinian state. But the way for that is still long, since Israel and Palestine don't seem to be able to agree on anything. The problem is what to do to keep the Israeli people safe until that day comes.
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 01, 2012 02:42 PM |
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Folks that say Israel is a U.S. puppet don't read very much. I will not mention the many instances (because of the venom) but I know of several times that Israel has did what they thought they needed to do and dismissed what the U.S. advocated; because the American stance did not serve their security-interests. Otoh, at tmes, they have yielded to outside ideas in the hope that they "could" work.
I think more neutral thinking is called for here; since the present Israel has had to fight for its existance since the 40's and little has changed. <imo>Sadat was the first and last real hope thus far. And...what preceeded that? You should know what.
When a person tries to build a home but every neighbor unites under the goal of destroying that house, well...connect the dots.
Question for the experts: If you are told you have no right to exist and therefore must be wiped off the face of the earth: how do you BEGIN a discussion with this er, mm, diplomat? Remember, you do not have the right to exist. Please be brief with responses and no walls of text.
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 01, 2012 02:49 PM |
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You make it sound so simple but I'm not going to fight a straw man.
To answer your question shortly: I'll laugh. Remember though that you are only asking what one will do if he's told that he has no right to exist.  If you want to introduce details, be objective and add them on both parts of the barricade.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted August 01, 2012 02:58 PM |
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It's you who did not read previous, it has been told that US is Israel puppet, not vice versa. As for you question, one answer: recognize the state then talk. I don't see much difference between Arabs and Jews arrogance, and except USA, not a single country on this earth agrees with Israel actions. You can cry to mass antisemitism and this will hypocritically hide own responsibilities. But until when?
Now my question: if you kill 10 times more civilians than you lost, if you destroy all their homes and put them all behind living prison, how the hell you expect they don't want to wipe you? I would.
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Tsar-Ivor
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Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 02:59 PM |
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I think more neutral thinkiang is called for here; the present Israel has had to fight for its existance since the 40's and little has changed
The state of Israel was established to subdue and appease the jewish community, refuggees had to be placed somewhere since they were denied access to most countries, Zionism is nothing but a forcefull infliction of jewish religion and culture upon the arab nations. This was convenient for the European powers to base the Jewish culture to one nation.
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When a person tries to build a home but every neighbor unites under the goal of destroying that house, well...connect the dots
I have a better analogy if you will: "What the hell is wrong with people today, they're all driving on the wrong side of the road"
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 01, 2012 02:59 PM |
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Easy? No way. Anyway, why should I give some sort of answer to my own question? If I had the answer, I might not ask the question; I'm here to learn
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 01, 2012 03:03 PM |
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recognize the state then talk.
Sal, Isn't that what should be said to the other side?
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted August 01, 2012 03:05 PM |
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I think not. Israel was injected in the area, it is the guest and has to make concessions. First.
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Tsar-Ivor
Promising
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Scourge of God
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posted August 01, 2012 03:06 PM |
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Personally I wouldn't call Israel a "guest", but by modern standards a civil approach is preferable.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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markkur
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Once upon a time
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posted August 01, 2012 03:07 PM |
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But, who placed Israel there in the first place?
That "idea" has been fought from the very beginning.
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