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| Thread: Israeli tourists killed in a bus explosion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 22, 2012 12:02 PM |
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@Zenofex
You want my honest opinion? No, I don't think Iran will nuke Israel. Although, I must add to it that it does worry me exactly because of what Salamandre said - you never know when Ahmadinejad or one of his successors will snap and push the button. You want another one of my honest opinions? I don't think that Israel will use military force to stop Iran's nuclear project. I believe that such a plan exists, but it won't be used and Israel just uses the possibility to put pressure on U.S. and the rest of the Western world to put pressure on Iran.
I guess you consider it proven that the Iranian nuclear program has military goals and that alone compromises your position at this point. There is no proof so far and that's that. Remember the Iraqi biological weapons?
You you also seem to be missing something else. Assume that Iran indeed develops nuclear weapons. Assume even that it already has a few mid-range missiles with nuclear warheads. Is it going to nuke Israel? If yes - which part and how is it going to avoid Palestinian casualties and particularly collateral damage among the Shia Palestinians?
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted August 22, 2012 02:49 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 14:51, 22 Aug 2012.
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I guess you consider it proven that the Iranian nuclear program has military goals and that alone compromises your position at this point. There is no proof so far and that's that. Remember the Iraqi biological weapons?
Israel got its first nuke in late 60's, it now has more than 80 nukes, however even though everybody with common sense knows it "there is no actual proof so far and that's that" and even if you think there is some proof out there, reasonable doubt as long as Israel isnt allowing you (neutral country or whatever) to investigate.
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You you also seem to be missing something else. Assume that Iran indeed develops nuclear weapons. Assume even that it already has a few mid-range missiles with nuclear warheads. Is it going to nuke Israel? If yes - which part and how is it going to avoid Palestinian casualties and particularly collateral damage among the Shia Palestinians?
Are you really that naive ? Iraq Iran conflict, muslims said nothing about it coz its muslim on muslim conflict, Sudan/Iraq as I'm typing this thousands of muslims are dying by the hands of other muslims in those two countries, are there any muslims on the streets of London/NY/Paris/Berlin callin for the end of the bloodshed of those poor muslims ? Only jews/christians on muslims (conflict) is relevant/sexy thats why you hear about Israel, thats why when you hear about Iraq its about USA presence there, thats why you heard about Bosnia as well... Iran couldnt care less about Palestinians (them dying with Israelis would make them shaheeds), throughout history palestinians have been nothing but used/abused and left out to dry by their arab "friends"...
If it ever comes down to wipe Israel out and pay the price with palestinian lives its gonna be  
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Elodin
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Free Thinker
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posted August 22, 2012 03:13 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:19, 22 Aug 2012.
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There is a lot of demonization of Jews going going on.
Where did Israel say it wants to annihilate any nation? It did not.
Oh, there is no nation of Palestine. The people you are calling Palestinians are Jordanians, Syrians, and Egyptians.
A few forgotten facts
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1. Israel became a nation in 1312 BCE, two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the modern State of Israel.
3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 BCE, the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 CE lasted no more than 22 years.
5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
9. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution, and slaughter.
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
12. Arab refugees were intentionally not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own people's lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
14. The PLO's Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them.
15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
16. The UN Record on Israel and the Arabs: of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
18. The UN was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
19. The UN was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
20. The UN was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like a policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
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From the 1948 Israeli War of Independence, "Palestinian Arabs" have been sacrificed as pawns by all other Arab countries as they are to this day. No other Arab country has ever offered to accept any of these people into their own countries even though they are well able to do so. To the Arab countries and the rest of the anti-Semitic world, the "Palestinian Arabs" are useful only as a tool to exterminate Israel and the rest of the Jews in the Middle East. Otherwise, their welfare is of no concern to the rest of the Arab world.
What about the ingrained notion that the Palestinians are fighting for their ancient homeland annexed by the Jews? The truth about this matter has been so deliberately obscured that even to raise the issue seems strange to many people.
In the 1967 war, also known as the Six Day War, did Israel annex territory from a Palestinian nation? No, Israel did not take a single inch of territory from Palestine. That is because there is not, nor has there ever been, a Palestinian nation. Israel captured the West Bank and Eastern Jerusalem from Jordan's King Hussein and the Gaza Strip from Egypt, after they declared war against the Jewish State. It was only following the Six-day War in 1967 that Arab refugees living in these territories began identifying themselves as the "Palestinian People" because the global media labeled them as such. One cannot help but wonder why these Palestinians suddenly discovered a national identity after Israel won the war, but not during the "Jordanian Occupation" or the "Egyptian Occupation"?
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Salamandre
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posted August 22, 2012 03:29 PM |
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Iran bomb:
People worry that a nuclear Iran would be able to blackmail Israel, seize major oil fields, or force the US out of the Middle East. But they ignore a key lesson of the nuclear age: nuclear weapons are not very useful for coercion. Israel, for example, did not suddenly acquire the ability to push around its neighbors when it obtained nuclear. Nor did China, North Korea, South Africa, or any other state that has ever built nuclear weapons. The reality is that nuclear weapons have never been very useful tools of blackmail.
Nuclear threats lack credibility. If Iran ever used nuclear weapons against one of its neighbors, it would suffer unprecedented international isolation, unify the region against it, and even trigger nuclear retaliation from the US or Israel. And it knows it would be the end for him.
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Zenofex
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posted August 22, 2012 03:32 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 15:35, 22 Aug 2012.
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Israel got its first nuke in late 60's, it now has more than 80 nukes, however even though everybody with common sense knows it "there is no actual proof so far and that's that" and even if you think there is some proof out there, reasonable doubt as long as Israel isnt allowing you (neutral country or whatever) to investigate.
And in your opinion that means that Iran has nukes? Such reasoning deserves a Nobel prize in logic... or not really.
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Are you really that naive ? Iraq Iran conflict, muslims said nothing about it coz its muslim on muslim conflict, Sudan/Iraq as I'm typing this thousands of muslims are dying by the hands of other muslims in those two countries, are there any muslims on the streets of London/NY/Paris/Berlin callin for the end of the bloodshed of those poor muslims ? Only jews/christians on muslims (conflict) is relevant/sexy thats why you hear about Israel, thats why when you hear about Iraq its about USA presence there, thats why you heard about Bosnia as well... Iran couldnt care less about Palestinians (them dying with Israelis would make them shaheeds), throughout history palestinians have been nothing but used/abused and left out to dry by their arab "friends"...
If it ever comes down to wipe Israel out and pay the price with palestinian lives its gonna be
Do you make a difference between an "armed conflict", a war for example, and using nuclear weapons against another country/nation/religion/whatever? As you seem to play dumb, let me explain:
1. Iran has no major international support for what it does - the US and Israel make sure that this remains so.
2. Iran can not afford to mindlessly slaughter Palestinians along with Israeli just because it wants Israel "off the map" because it will lose even the neutrality and the vague support of other countries.
3. Iran is considering itself the leader of the Shia Muslim world - hence slaughtering fellow Shia Muslims for whatever reason will destroy that image.
Of course if you consider the Iranian politicians a bunch of ex-mental-institution-patients like the official propaganda tries to depict them, you'll understand none of the above. Try to think for a moment if they want to get their country destroyed - which will surely happen if they openly attack Israel - and what good this will serve them and the Iranian people.
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Elodin
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posted August 22, 2012 03:35 PM |
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Edited by Elodin at 15:36, 22 Aug 2012.
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Iran bomb:
People worry that a nuclear Iran would be able to blackmail Israel, seize major oil fields, or force the US out of the Middle East.
It is unlikely that Iran will use a nuclear weapon for blackmail against Israel. They will just explode it in Israel through a proxy terrorist organization. Or they'll explode it in a Western European nation to make a statement, through a terrorist organization. They'd love to do so in the US but would have rather more of a transportation problem, so Israel or Europe would be the target.
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted August 22, 2012 03:38 PM |
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That would have same result. A bomb is not coming from no where, Iran signature will make no doubt. And I don't see what gain will have Iran by doing so.
Let’s not forget that Iran has not invaded or start any war in the past 180+ years (despite having the capability to invade any of the arab neighbors long before they became US allies with major oil revenues).
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted August 22, 2012 04:19 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 16:35, 22 Aug 2012.
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And in your opinion that means that Iran has nukes? Such reasoning deserves a Nobel prize in logic... or not really.
IMO, Iran doesnt have a nuke (yet),all I said was that using a sentence such as "you dont have a proof that country XXX has nukes" is simply put a meaningless sentence coz you cant have a proof unless country XXX allows you to investigate, which 99% of the countries wont allow...
Wouldnt say no to nobel prize though, getting 1 mil is nice 
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Do you make a difference between an "armed conflict", a war for example, and using nuclear weapons against another country/nation/religion/whatever? As you seem to play dumb, let me explain:
1. Iran has no major international support for what it does - the US and Israel make sure that this remains so.
2. Iran can not afford to mindlessly slaughter Palestinians along with Israeli just because it wants Israel "off the map" because it will lose even the neutrality and the vague support of other countries.
3. Iran is considering itself the leader of the Shia Muslim world - hence slaughtering fellow Shia Muslims for whatever reason will destroy that image.
Of course if you consider the Iranian politicians a bunch of ex-mental-institution-patients like the official propaganda tries to depict them, you'll understand none of the above. Try to think for a moment if they want to get their country destroyed - which will surely happen if they openly attack Israel - and what good this will serve them and the Iranian people.
Wait what ? Let me try this again...
1. Iran or any other arab country doesnt really care about palestianians.
2. Iran = Shia, Palestinians = Sunny...so Im thinking you dont really know as much as you think you do 
3. If any political leader, anywhere, makes "slightly fanatic/extreme" statements in public, I dont assume rationality... I apply the saem rule to Iran, Israel, USA... any country really
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Zenofex
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Kreegan-atheist
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posted August 22, 2012 04:58 PM |
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So Ahmadinejad's talking is all you have as an argument and that's supposed to prove that Iran will nuke Israel. Brother...
As for the Palestinians - as far as I know they are mostly Sunni but there are also Shia Muslims among them. Or you have different information. With links please.
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Geny
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted August 22, 2012 05:19 PM |
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I never said it will, in fact I clearly recall saying that I believe it won't. What I said was that I worry that it might. How from that you started deriving that I know something about Iran's weapons or intentions is beyond me.
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smithey
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Yes im red, choke on it !!!
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posted August 22, 2012 05:50 PM |
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Edited by smithey at 17:53, 22 Aug 2012.
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So Ahmadinejad's talking is all you have as an argument and that's supposed to prove that Iran will nuke Israel. Brother...
Bloody hell, there is no discussing anything with you Zen, instead of taking a point I've made, addressing it and either agreeing/disagreeing with it you go into this alt universe where I have said things I've never said....
In your own words, "links please" coz I would like to see where I said so
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As for the Palestinians - as far as I know they are mostly Sunni but there are also Shia Muslims among them. Or you have different information. With links please.
Emm,,, the truth is you simply had no idea, dont worry, people dont die coz of that you know...
Edit - Snowing ey... got half-ninj'd by a white bearded dude... and agreed with JJ on something.... the end is near
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Zenofex
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posted August 23, 2012 12:18 AM |
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Here's a link: http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=37835&pagenumber=8
Here's what you say: Quote:
3. If any political leader, anywhere, makes "slightly fanatic/extreme" statements in public, I dont assume rationality... I apply the saem rule to Iran, Israel, USA... any country really
So Ahmadinejad is not assumed as rational but he won't nuke Israel anyway? Do decide what you want to say already.
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Emm,,, the truth is you simply had no idea, dont worry, people dont die coz of that you know...
The truth is that I have an idea and you did nothing to disprove what I said.
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blizzardboy
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posted August 23, 2012 07:02 AM |
bonus applied by Corribus on 25 Aug 2012. |
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The concerns over Iran are a denial of inevitability. What really makes Iran & nukes a hot issue isn't so much that Iran will conventionally point their missiles towards Israel, one nation to another, and blast them off. It's the fear that a small, easily-portable, low-key nuke will be subtly passed down to a proxy group, who will in turn try to deliver a nuke to Israel, London, New York, etc.
I won't be as bold as to say that there is no need to fear this, however as I said: it is a denial of inevitability. What I mean by that is that the progression of technology almost surely will happen. You want to be worried about nukes? Try Pakistan. The level of partisanship and extreme elements in Pakistan exceeds Iran, and they've already got some nice juicy nukes. The difference is that the current government in place in Pakistan is not in the habit of doing public trash-talking, as Iran is so fond of. But what were to happen if Pakistan experienced their own version of an Arab Spring, and the radical interests in the less developed parts of Pakistan gained even partial power?
And you think nuclear development will stop with Iran? 10 years from now, somebody else will be pushing for it. 20 years from now, a whole bundle of countries might be. Not all of them will necessarily be on friendly terms with the entire world. Yet preventing them from acquiring nuclear technology seems pretty futile. Unless you're prepared to level the country, it's going to happen. Even if you try to make tactical strikes on key targets to halt their program, it will piss them off and years down the road they might try it again, and that time around there would probably be more radical elements in government backing them up.
Now, you might say that you're just trying to stall them until a more benign Iranian government comes into power in the future, but even this is a far cry. Although certainly not everybody in Iran is bros with Ahmadinejad, don't be mistaken to think that Iran is anything other than a highly socially conservative country with some pretty resentful views towards Israel. If there's a change in government a couple years from, I certainly wouldn't hold my breath expecting it to be substantially different from the previous admin. Hell, we might even be a little bit on the lucky side to have Ahmadinejad as their head of government.
So to me, I think it best to try not to piss them off too much. These sanctions on Iran worry me because they really are taking their tole on the Iranian people in a very real and painful way, and although even so much as passing down a nuke to a proxy group could invoke terrible retaliation, you really can't say with enormous certainty that it won't happen. If you wound or anger a person or a group of people enough, you can't rely on them to always act rationally.
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Elodin
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posted August 23, 2012 03:02 PM |
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So Blizz, basically your saying the US should just accept having its major cities blown up because sooner or later Iran will get nukes so we should just stop trying to prevent them from getting nukes and accept our inevitable demise.  Instead of sanctions we should be giving them financial aid to hasten the inevitable future, eh? Or the US could just officially convert to an Islamic nation and install an Islamic cleric as our dictator and things would be hunky-dory.
I guess its good I have tactical nukes stored in my fallout shelter and have done a lot of practice surviving post-nuclear events by playing a lot of Fallout 1/2/3/NV. 
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del_diablo
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posted August 23, 2012 03:29 PM |
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Oh dear sun, a fallancy!
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Zenofex
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posted August 23, 2012 04:07 PM |
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Yes, Iran wants to blow your cities like the USSR was intending to blow your cities and like... I dunno, Madagascar will want to blow your cities after 20-30 years. Now, if you just open your mouth a little wider so the doctor can give you the pills...
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blizzardboy
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posted August 24, 2012 07:11 AM |
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@Elodin:
When I say inevitability, I don't mean it is inevitable that Iran will use a nuke on somebody. I mean it is pretty much inevitable that non-nuclear nations will eventually become nuclear nations. Iran's push for nuclear technology is just a prelude for what is to come. Although admittedly, it's been said by quite a number of academics that we've probably only just begun to experience the complications of nukes. In the 20th century it was a relatively simple stand-off between two highly-organized superstates and their respective hosts of supporting lackeys. As more and more countries acquire nuclear technology, that could become a far more complicated picture, with veritably endless possibilities for somebody, somewhere, to pass one down into the hands of a person that is prepared to use it. Without some far more ambitious diplomacy to try to demilitarize and control nuclear weapons, the future could be quite... toasty. Mmmm mmmm.
Iran is not a giant walking suicide bomber. They have better things to do with their lives than sacrifice them just for the brief satisfaction of barbequing a bunch of New Yorkers. There are only a select few people that are desperate/crazy enough to actually set off a bomb in the post WW2 world, and probably none of them currently are people in a position of power. I favor the chances of trying to assuage them then continuing to push for ever-harsher sanctions. Like I said, if you don't like the idea of the radical Islamic world having nukes, then you're too late. They've already got them. It's called Islamabad. They've had them for quite awhile now. There haven't been any cities turned into a carbon stain yet.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted August 25, 2012 12:53 AM |
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Hypothesis: An Obama re-election will stimulate Israel to take a more proactive stance against an Iranian nuclear program, possibly motivating pre-emptive strikes. A Romney re-election will stimulate Israel to take a more conservative view of the situation.
Thoughts?
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meroe
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posted August 25, 2012 01:47 AM |
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 OMGoodness, seriously????
Ye Gods, the last thing we need in the Middle East is more missiles and this time heading for Iran!!!
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Doomforge
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posted August 25, 2012 01:50 AM |
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Well, as long as it's not McCain who would probably declare war on Iran on his first day of presidency, there's not much to worry about. Israel needs an ally in this, and to my knowledge, US isn't actually overly optimistic about bombing Iran. I'm sure that Israel won't actually go berserk about this - the strength of this "coalition" is based on mutual agreement. Once it's broken, it won't be so easy to keep things in control anymore. Pretty sure Israeli politicians are well aware of that.
As for nukes, well, Poland is also aiming for Nuclear power plant soon, and judging by people's mentality here, it's a bigger worry than Iranian one.
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