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| Thread: the end of Heroes6 ? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 17, 2013 03:54 PM |
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It doesn't really matter who the bad guys are, urgash to Ashan is like the dark lord to middle-earth, what we need is balanced factions with simple mechanics but deep skill systems...
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Avonu
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Embracing light and darkness
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posted January 17, 2013 04:09 PM |
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Quote:
Inferno isn't evil. Those are the creatures of Urgash (other than Asha's world, but the problems come from the Wars of creations, where Urgash used his creatures to battle Asha and her children - it's not their fault they are the way they are, they are imprisoned and they want out.
Sure guys, we want to destroy the world and wipe all of you but we aren't evil. We do it because we want you to be free!
Quote:
They are more like ... DIFFERENT.
That's evil in Ashan term. No matter what are your motives to destroy the world or to eradicate other species - you ARE EVEEEEL!
Motives are only show how good written is antagonist... and so far Demons were written poorly.
Oh and setting a guy on fire by Jezebeth or two demons talking about how they slaughter all humans, when they leave Sheogh in Clash of Heroes is not evil at all. 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 08:00 PM |
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Aww, come one. They just wanna play, you know. Have a little fun widda boys out there.
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IbnWaliBarad
Hired Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 08:50 PM |
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Quote:
Also, we've come a long way from the fixed roles of factions in HoMM 3 to the all-grey world of HoMM 6 where every faction can be good or evil alike.
I disagree. One must not separate the faction fro the rest when it comes to calling the setting ''grey''. Grey faction have neither good or wrong designs, just like in real life. They don't have a bit of both, they just can't be judged in those terms.
The story has never been so cheesy and childish. Heroes 6 is a drawback on many terms, and story/design must be the worse.
We have a pretty immature story, awfully cheesy dialogues
ex : *crow* : ''men are all the same'' *Zombie princess (with her annoying voice)* ''hahaha, yes, yes men are all the same''. LUL LUL DAT WAZ SOOO FUNYYY.
In heroes 3 and especially 4 we were presented with not so politically correct character. Including an half undead, half human that will kill bare handed a whole bunch of innocent monks because he feels like it (or also kill the self righteous woman who was trying to show him goodness and kindness).
Yet in the end, many of those characters/factions they weren't presented as good or evil. More like people with specific goals that try to make a place for themselves in the world.
We were far from that in heroes 6 with our goodie goodie animu teenage gang.
If anything, apart from the awfulness that was the teen gang, most characters were extremely stock. They were either right or wrong. Most of those who were wrong were just ''misguided'' (OMG misguided sooo deep) by their hatred or outdated conceptions, or were just plain evil.
Sandro DLC was the only time we were put with a character a little bit more interesting.
In real grey story there is neither right or wrong, those conceptions don't exist as good stories tries to emulate an authentic, realistic experience. It's been partly done in video games witcher 2, planescape and many others comes to my mind (and also some of the previous heroes campaigns).
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 17, 2013 08:58 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 20:59, 17 Jan 2013.
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I can only sum up Heroes 6 plot in one sentence: I don't remember it. Each time I think about it I must read the plot summary for reference. Well technically I do remember the characters and some of the events, but I just don't care enough to bother my mind with it. It's not memorable.
On the other hand I do remember every character and campaign plot in Heroes 3 & 4. Not to say those were groundbreaking, but memorable one way or the other.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 09:14 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
Also, we've come a long way from the fixed roles of factions in HoMM 3 to the all-grey world of HoMM 6 where every faction can be good or evil alike.
I disagree. One must not separate the faction fro the rest when it comes to calling the setting ''grey''. Grey faction have neither good or wrong designs, just like in real life. They don't have a bit of both, they just can't be judged in those terms.
The story has never been so cheesy and childish. Heroes 6 is a drawback on many terms, and story/design must be the worse.
We have a pretty immature story, awfully cheesy dialogues
ex : *crow* : ''men are all the same'' *Zombie princess (with her annoying voice)* ''hahaha, yes, yes men are all the same''. LUL LUL DAT WAZ SOOO FUNYYY.
In heroes 3 and especially 4 we were presented with not so politically correct character. Including an half undead, half human that will kill bare handed a whole bunch of innocent monks because he feels like it (or also kill the self righteous woman who was trying to show him goodness and kindness).
Yet in the end, many of those characters/factions they weren't presented as good or evil. More like people with specific goals that try to make a place for themselves in the world.
We were far from that in heroes 6 with our goodie goodie animu teenage gang.
If anything, apart from the awfulness that was the teen gang, most characters were extremely stock. They were either right or wrong. Most of those who were wrong were just ''misguided'' (OMG misguided sooo deep) by their hatred or outdated conceptions, or were just plain evil.
Sandro DLC was the only time we were put with a character a little bit more interesting.
In real grey story there is neither right or wrong, those conceptions don't exist as good stories tries to emulate an authentic, realistic experience. It's been partly done in video games witcher 2, planescape and many others comes to my mind (and also some of the previous heroes campaigns).
It's simply that good and evil play no role, because no one is interested. Everyone has their agenda and doesn't care about good and evil, and there is no faction that you could call "good".
In my opinion there is also no faction that is evil - I mean, come on, if you are a follower of Urgash, you will be reborn, so killing each other isn't a problem. So what, if the rest has a problem with that?
This will become more interesting with the Void. Urgash and Asha are two sides of one coin, but the void wants to negate everything - but even though have the justification of breaking the determinism of the Dragon Gods.
The Void would be QUITE an interesting faction mind you
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 17, 2013 09:15 PM |
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Just one note
The term "Grey" doesn't have anything to do with the story of the game or the quality of the writing
It is a term that means that most factions are not displayed in a single way. This can't be seen on the individual stories, but the protagonists and their motives (not the way the are presented but what do they stand for), and the lore that is created as a background of the particular faction.
Good examples are the orcs or the Dark elves, but also necromancers, knights and wizards have gain enought space to be seen in both lights.
If somebody would like to argue, lets look at the Dark elves.
All that they stand for can be seen as "Evil". Darkess, assassination, poison and other rather dispicable tactics. They are depicted as those who would stab you in the back, just for the reason that it's the most efective way.
But are they Evil? Can a race whose background is filled by one betraiel after another be evil? Do you feel that the Darkelves are the bad guys, or are they just "anarchists" hated by almost everybody for not beeing to their likings.
If their high king did not left the alone, if the elves would not exile them, if the angels would not hunt them... maybe then they would look different.
This faction is grey. Yes there are evil dark elves, aswell as there are good dark elves, but the general feeling of the faction is on the edge of both of the these sides.
Necromancers, Wizards, Knights, Orcs...
In all these factions you can find characters who want to kill, destroy a dominate, but also such that want to help, preserve and liberate. Each in its slightly different way. Each faction has several fractions, idividual sides whitin a side, that stand for themselves and represent different opinions.
One orc clan might help you, another might kill you. One duchy might give you a medal for your help, another might imprison you for the same task. In one grupe of wizards you might be a rolemodel, in another a targit of envy.
This is grey. This is what is the difference between Ashan and the old settings.
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I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 09:26 PM |
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Exactly.
Even though it's grey.
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xerox
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 09:27 PM |
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Quote:
The Void would be QUITE an interesting faction mind you
What is the Void anyway? SoD stuff?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 17, 2013 09:30 PM |
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DLC-Sandro stuff that will be continued in SoD.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 17, 2013 09:56 PM |
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The Void spawned the Cosmic egg, which upon hatching, gave birth to the twin Primordial Dragons of Order (Asha) and Chaos (Urgash)......Sandro wants to plot against Asha to connect to the Void and thus other worlds beyond Ashan......
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted January 17, 2013 10:14 PM |
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The Void is... Ubi's backdoor if fans whining gets out of hand. Throw in some legacy Heroes, a possibility that Enroth's there somewhere and eventual fans rage with Heroes VII will be calmed 
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IbnWaliBarad
Hired Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 12:32 AM |
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Quote:
The Void is... Ubi's backdoor if fans whining gets out of hand. Throw in some legacy Heroes, a possibility that Enroth's there somewhere and eventual fans rage with Heroes VII will be calmed
That's how I feel too. They are perfectly aware that their story and setting is more than lacking, and that their design decision tends to annoy more than pleasing.
So just in case things goes terribly wrong, they will throw Solmyr, maybe Gauldoth and take us back in the Enroth room until we calm down.
And I will repeat it for those who try to semi-defend (only semi I noticed) the setting. Grey is just too much of a compliment for this piece of garbage. It sounds too meliorative. Maybe the factions are equally composed of good and bad guys, but everything is still freaking stock.
I would rather have coherent, one dimensional factions full of interesting, authentic characters than a pseudo grey faction full of cliche good guys but with a few rotten apple that tend to occupy higher position of power.
And I'm also tired of playing as insecure babies, surrounded by equally insecure adults and/or cliche ''OMG soo kewl'' dark beings.
I have some hopes for the expansion, but I do fear that ubisoft will try to do everything in a cheesy, manichean way. I do hope that sandro and raelag won't be presented as superficial evil with a good hearth and deep insecurities. That would be awful (and ubisoft's recent tendency).
I want to play as a responsible, self aware protagonist that disregard human life to attain his goals, and doesn't have some kind of hidden ''omg so deep'' soft side or pacifist goals.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 18, 2013 12:54 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 01:09, 18 Jan 2013.
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What if the narration was done in the style of H3 and H4.
Would that have made the story better or worse than it already is?
Edit: Probably worse, since the game has a lot of dialogue and characters interacting with one another.
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KaynaCrous
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 04:47 AM |
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Quote:
It doesn't really matter who the bad guys are, urgash to Ashan is like the dark lord to middle-earth, what we need is balanced factions with simple mechanics but deep skill systems...
Agree 100 %
Only Bioware and some exceptions here and there creates stories worth paying attention to. As for the rest, might just watch a movie instead.
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Dave_Jame
Promising
Legendary Hero
I'm Faceless, not Brainless.
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posted January 18, 2013 08:07 AM |
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Quote:
What if the narration was done in the style of H3 and H4.
Would that have made the story better or worse than it already is?
Edit: Probably worse, since the game has a lot of dialogue and characters interacting with one another.
I Actually think it would be much better
The important dialogues could be kept, with only an narrativ introduction, and the really bad ones like the "voices in Antons head" could be done by his narrations only.
____________
I'm just a Mirror of your self.
We see, we look, we gather, we store, we teach.
We are many, and you can be one of us.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted January 18, 2013 08:41 AM |
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Edited by Avirosb at 08:41, 18 Jan 2013.
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Quote:
[Only Bioware and some exceptions here and there creates stories worth paying attention to. As for the rest, might just watch a movie instead.
Funny, that's how it feels like to me whenever I watch footage of Dragon Age and Mass Effect.
But I digress...
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I Actually think it would be much better
It would be considerably easier to reveal backstory in a "not dumb" fashion too, I guess.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 18, 2013 09:26 AM |
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Generally, what kind of story do you expect in a computer game? A story worth writing down as a book winning a couple of prizes? Fantasy is the dumbest genre anyway - how many original stories really exist? How many really good "worlds" (with worlds I mean Ashan) really exist?
And on top of that you have to consider the constraints under which they are working. Take, for example the human(oid) main heroes - something that's based on the economy of creating the models, but it also creates a pretty strict frame for the story.
Then there is this ... goal to have ONE continuing ("epic") campaign story (instead of separate ones).
Then there is the perceived necessity for HD cutscenes - I suppose this is perceived necessary for marketing purposes; when you make a trailer, it has to look like a movie or something like that.
Take all of this together, and you have the same constraints under which the bigger, but not really big Hollywood movie studios work.
Which is actually all the problem. As paradox as it sounds - I'm pretty sure that the best way to produce a convincing HoMM 7 is to cut the budget to a minimum, then drop all the crap that has no lasting value anyway, forget cutscenes and so on and just produce the game first and not the campaigns.
Won't happen, though.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 18, 2013 09:34 AM |
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Heroes gameplay shold be like this: set on "easy" the levels should still be difficult to finish. On "heroic" they should be impossible to finish. Strong AI, strong multiplayer, strong strategy 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 18, 2013 09:40 AM |
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Quote:
I want to play as a responsible, self aware protagonist that disregard human life to attain his goals, and doesn't have some kind of hidden ''omg so deep'' soft side or pacifist goals.
Pretty much Sandro. If you play danse macabre you'll see  This is what the recent heroes were missing, a decent villain with no redeeming properties. The sovereign is too cliche and Markal was awesome but more for teh lulz than an actual serious villain. Biara.. let's not even go there and as for H6, nothing ground-breaking either. The H6 main 'villain' had an interesting and rather unexpected backstory but the storytelling was so poor that he just failed to leave an impression.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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