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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2015 02:55 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 14:57, 11 Nov 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
Mintz does it differently. Now, I don't know him good enough to know whether he plays it this way because his technique isn't good enough to give at a go in Paganini style or whether it's a real decision, but what he does is presenting a piece of music, not showcasing superior playing technique. He SERVES the music.
More directly to the point, the player is as much an artist as the composer. Playing a piece of music differently than the composer intended (hell, even changing notes or instruments) doesn't make it any less artistic in my view.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 03:03 PM |
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I don't disagree with you, it's just that being a virtuoso player doesn't make you a componist, and you can be a componist without being a virtuoso player. If you don't have the means, though, to express yourself the way you want to, then I expect that you will start to learn what's necessary.
I mean ... ok, contemporary example: Eddie van Halen. Virtuoso player (holds a couple of patents as well for guitar support stuff), delved deeply into a certain guitar playing technique - but his qualities as a composer?
Avoiding the obvious Hendrix reference, Brian May is probably someone who did work a lot for being able to create the sounds he wanted and to be able to play his creations., including building his own instrument. As is Jeff Beck, of course.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 03:04 PM |
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Corribus said:
JollyJoker said:
Mintz does it differently. Now, I don't know him good enough to know whether he plays it this way because his technique isn't good enough to give at a go in Paganini style or whether it's a real decision, but what he does is presenting a piece of music, not showcasing superior playing technique. He SERVES the music.
More directly to the point, the player is as much an artist as the composer. Playing a piece of music differently than the composer intended (hell, even changing notes or instruments) doesn't make it any less artistic in my view.
In my view neither, on the contrary.
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Salamandre
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posted November 11, 2015 03:12 PM |
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I don't know what you mean by virtuoso. Often I see guitar or drums players who play very fast using same pattern over and over. This does not work in classical music where the composer doesn't have in mind the technical possibilities of the interpreter, he just write his stuff. Sometimes you need indeed to have good fingers and brain reaction because it may be very difficult, but in general a virtuoso is the one who can deliver the musical message without making mistakes.
As for playing the right notes or not, this is very rare case. Usually there is no need to change anything, the guy who wrote it knew his stuff. Usually much better than today's interpreters. In some cases you have very powerful personalities which can't avoid changing dynamics and articulations, as Gould or Rachmaninoff. But it remains very rare.
Also if you start your career by improvising stuff in in such artworks, you won't make it, classical public usually is merciless towards such attitude. Don't try to make comparisons with pop or other styles, those are different planets.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2015 03:39 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 15:53, 11 Nov 2015.
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Well, for example, I swear that in many of Rubinstein's interpretations of Chopin, there are occasionally divergences between the notes played and what is on my copy. From what I understand this may be unintentional, because sometimes versions differ on the page due to translations of the music. But still... sometimes even a single note can have profound influence on the feeling of a piece.
Example. Listen to Rubinstein's interpretation of Prelude 20 C minor from Chopin, about 18 seconds in. Chord played by Rubinstein is C major chord. In my copy of the music this chord is C minor. Most other interpretations seem to be C minor chord as well, listen for for example to Pogorelich (same chord at about 25 second).
When I first listened to Rubinstein's interpretation, I cringed when I heard that note - like fingers scraping over a chalkboard. It felt wrong. But as I listen to it more, it's not so bad - it just surprised me. It certainly changes the character of the piece.
Which is right? I don't know. I can only go by my music. Reading through the youtube comments, it is implied that maybe Chopin had written multiple versions of the music and the chord was different in different copies. Even if not, I guess if you are Rubinstein, you can do what the hell you want. 
(From my point of view, Rubinstein's version is way too fast. The music indicates Largo. I didn't measure the tempo of Rubinstein's playing but it seems to be much faster than largo. This view is supported by listening to other pianists' renditions of the music. Is changing the indicated tempo any different than changing the indicated notes? Both are ignoring the composer's directions. We seem more accepting of changing written tempos and volumes than written notes... that's an interesting psychological discussion in itself. But, I think this is what makes music so interesting. Hearing a piece played in a new way can be almost like hearing a new piece of music.)
EDIT: Just as a personal example, one of my favorite nocturnes by John Field (number 10) ends on a minor chord. Lately when I've been playing it at home I've ended on the equivalent major. Totally not written in the music at all, but it feels uplifting and surprising after the melancholia of the piece. Yeah, were I a professional I couldn't get away with that most likely. But screw it, I'm in my own home. I'll do what I want. (Seriously, as amateurs maybe we have more freedom to be artists, whereas professionals are handicapped by listener expectations.)
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
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posted November 11, 2015 03:50 PM |
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Is first time I hear a C major chord there. Dunno, maybe some very old edition, the Urtext has c minor.
As for tempo, the metronome puts Largo range from 44 to 60, and he is slower than that. So he is no wrong, theoretically speaking. Starting from that point, all that you like or prefer is what makes the life of an interpreter so exciting and frustrating at same time, there are billions of possibilities and people tastes are never same.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 03:57 PM |
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That's the problem with (re-)playing something of someone who's dead.
If the classics would still be alive, I suppose things like the Dylan/Hendrix stuff with All Along the Watchtower would probably happen as well, although I agree that changes would probably be limited to tempo and maybe instruments - or key, although it would be strange when Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D Minor would suddenly be played in E Minor. - which goes to show that pieces should have proper titles, like "For Elise", and not just be called "finger exercise in F Flat" or something like that.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2015 03:59 PM |
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Maybe you're right about the tempo - I didn't measure it. But it is certainly faster than most other interpretations, even by professionals. Maybe this is because it's popularly called the "Funeral March" - although not by Chopin himself. Certainly Rubinstein's version is faster than a funeral march (imagine carrying a casket that fast. ).
But it gets to an interesting point - maybe Rubinstein is playing it the way Chopin intended, but when people get accustomed to listening to it played a different way (in this case, much slower), such that even professionals follow suit, is it ok at that point in your view?
We might also take as an example the common fact of playing Bach on a piano, when much of it was intended for harpsichord. This isn't just a matter of identical notes because the physics of sound (overtones and such) is much different on a piano. For that matter pianos today are much different from the pianos played back when the classical composers were writing. There is a recent drive to honor more closely the original forms of these instruments to be faithful to the intended sound of the composers. Ultimately this is all still just a matter of interpretation. I don't think any of it is more right than anything else. It certainly gives music flavor, though.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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Salamandre
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posted November 11, 2015 04:30 PM |
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A composer doesn't give such indications. The tempo is just a matter of context and atmosphere. There is slow and fast, with all the ramifications between. When I told about Paganini indication, it was a technical one, related to sound emission: he wanted several notes per bow, not his work to be interpreted in this way or that. This is like Chopin writing "con pedal" here or "no pedal" there because he wants a different sound. But for tempo, the interpreter has total freedom, as well for the phrasing or the rubato. If not, it wouldn't make much sense to have 1 billion instrumentalists playing exactly same way.
And about Bach hapsichord, Bach writes vocally, the instrument doesn't matter much. The fact that the harmonies are never diluted each other, which would imply the pedal usage, makes that any of his work can be played at whatever instrument you want, granted it has the possibilities. The Kunst der Fuge, his musical testament, has no indication about the instrument to be played on, for example.
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2015 04:50 PM |
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I don't know, it seems the reason baroque keyboard music is filled with so much rococo (trills, ornaments, etc.) is that the harpsichord didn't have the room filling sound that the piano does.
Frankly, I think it still sounds better on the harpsichord.
But I guess it's just a matter of taste.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 05:29 PM |
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Artistical freedom means of course that everyone can play everything the way they want to.
Of course, should you want to give a concert, you'd be obliged to announce the changes beforehand, since you'd play it significantly differently.
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artu
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posted November 11, 2015 08:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 20:20, 11 Nov 2015.
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Quote:
Question: If Paganini would have been born in 1970 - what do you think he would play?
The better question would be, if Sal would have been a jazz player in the 1950's, what do you think he would do?
Naturally, this.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 08:39 PM |
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Quit playing and become a teacher?
Good find, though.
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artu
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posted November 11, 2015 08:46 PM |
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He's still giving concerts and recording as far as I know. He recorded in Germany recently.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 09:41 PM |
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artu
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posted November 11, 2015 09:52 PM |
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Salamandre. He posted some pictures to RL photos thread while he recorded a Brahms CD in Germany and I also remember him posting a poster of his concert, it was Tschaikowsky if I remember correctly, the latter was more than a year ago.
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 10:19 PM |
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Good for him - I thought he'd work as teacher (only). I wonder what he thinks...
Err, talking about present people in 3rd person is rude.
Sal, since you record, what's your opinion on digital recording and digital media for music. It seems, a lot of people think that analogue works better...?
Also, a sorry, but for some reason I wasn't realizing that your instrument of choice is the piano - an instrument with keys -, so all those guitar-based references are somewhat misplaced.
Might have been better to link aou with the likes of Rick Wakeman, Keith Emerson or Jon Lord.
Maybe I can pique your interest with a Xylophone?
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted November 11, 2015 11:05 PM |
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Watch it. I played xylophone (and analogues) in high school/college, along with timpani, base drum, crash cymbal, and just about every other percussion instrument you can think of. 
____________
I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 11:10 PM |
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I was very serious - not kidding, actually...
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JollyJoker
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posted November 11, 2015 11:29 PM |
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That
should be a convincing example of contemporary composition and performance quality. Note the Xylo.
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