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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 23, 2018 08:23 PM |
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 23, 2018 09:11 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:44, 24 Mar 2018.
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Me too, are you being sarcastic? 
He wrote "strongly thematically influenced by HoMM and similar fantasy games." You said you cant hear any thematic influence, you searched for musical themes from the Heroes soundtrack. I stated since he labels the influence as HoMM and similar fantasy games in general, he wasnt probably talking about a specific musical theme but a conceptual influence in the broader sense. You then made a Hamlet joke about such broadness, I took that Hamlet joke to the next level.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted March 23, 2018 09:25 PM |
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Salamandre said:
I know you're too happy to create bonds between macaronis and garden gnomes just for the stretch sake.
man my soul is fuelled by such funky turns of phrase loool cheers lol
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 23, 2018 09:33 PM |
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Such a long "discussion" for what essentially is noise. Forcing yourself to bear more than 30 seconds of it is health hazard.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted March 23, 2018 09:53 PM |
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How you dare, it is inspired from Heroes, which is inspired from Hamlet, which is inspired from Game of Thrones. Apostate.
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haiduk
Tavern Dweller
demoniac
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posted March 24, 2018 01:13 AM |
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Artu is correct.
@ Zenofex -
It's certainly not noise though it might sound that way at first to many who don't listen to metal in general (esp. the more extreme forms of metal like haiduk plays). There is a method to the 'madness'.
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Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
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posted March 24, 2018 08:17 AM |
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I listen to more or less all types of metal where I can recognize the text and where there's some sort of melody and/or catchy rhythm. That thing here is noise. Trying to get accustomed to it is like trying to enjoy getting kicked in the head. Sorry, not for me.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted March 27, 2018 12:34 AM |
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Edited by artu at 01:43, 27 Mar 2018.
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I so love the internet sometimes.
Maybe you noticed, I came upon this the other day, just kept listening to it, the harmony between Fred Astaire and Rita Hayworth was hypnotizing and the Elvis remix was pasted so sweet on it. Now, Youtube starts to recommend me Fred Astaire videos and one gets my attention, the Oscar ceremony from 1970, it was kind of weird to watch Astaire, making all those Swing Era dance moves to 70's Funk but you still respect the man because, in his seventies, completely out of his ball park, he still managed to pull off something that says "keep 'em comin' " But what's even better was learning, in 1970, a film about Artur Rubinstein got the award for best documantery, well rather than that, to learn such a documantery exists.
I tracked it down, of course. Like many men exceptionally talented, Rubinstein is both very child-like, yet also very mature and emphatic at the same time. And it just feels so good to love also the character of a performer you admire:
Artur Rubinstein - The Love of Life
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 11, 2018 05:15 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
All along the Watchtower - Battlestar Galactica Soundtrack
Magic. 
I could never warm up to this version. This song has always been very special to me, the lyrics were one of the first to capture me as a teenager learning English, and to this day, I still think the Dylan original with its “a bard’s tale” simplicity fits those lyrics best. (Although, the first version I heard, the version that got me was the live U2 version in Rattle and Hum.) Hendrix also does great justice to the song, even to the point of making his cover “the standard” version for most of the other covers. But this one is applying too much forced eccentricity in my opinion, like trying to paint a jewel.
Btw, just discovered this really exceptional kid. It’s incredible how at this age, she focuses on depth and expression instead of cheap tricks and “I can play real fast” crap. But then I checked her other covers and she was already into names like John Coltrane and Wes Montgomery. Probably a “rogue” prodigy who had some level of formal training: Since I’ve Been Loving You
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2018 07:31 PM |
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I think, it's magic because it does exactly what it is supposed to do. The music score in BSG is heavily leaning on a general Indian/Hebrew folk sound.
That song has a special role, because the audience is supposed to have an "I know that song" effect in the build-up. With me it worked, and it was completely magic. When the 4 started to quote from the song, I still recognized the text, even though they said it in German, and I was completely blown away by the fact that it was an actually existing song - just modified into that general Indian/Hebrew folklore context.
For the version you need the context of the show. Within that context it's magic. Without it's a strange version that would probably earn a shrug or so. And I would think that it works so well EXACTLY BECAUSE the Hendrix version is THE definitive cover version ever of any song this side of the 2nd half of the 60s.
So the song is perfectly chosen and perfectly "estranged" for the audience to not immediately recognize it but have that nagging feeling that "I know that goddamn song".
For the record, the show closes with the Hendrix version, and it's like a circle closing.
Oh, and for the record, there is no debating, with Dylan playing it the Hendrix way after the event.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 11, 2018 07:59 PM |
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Dylan does that as a kind of tribute to him, after his death. And he always redesigns his own songs in concerts, there are also versions much different than his original and the Hendrix version, check the one in the antology: Biograph for instance, that version must be from the 80’s if I’m not mistaken.
I did watch the show, I remember how the song played in people’s head and so on, but I never felt the urge to listen to it as stand alone music or download the soundtrack etc. That’s what I mean by I couldn’t warm up to it. The show itself was very inspiring in the beginning but then they “resolved” all the knots in the story by burning them with Deus Ex Machina, so, it all went down the drain. Kind of like Lost, fake puzzles to keep you interested, not as awful though.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2018 08:53 PM |
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No, that's not the right interpretaion.
Quote:
Dylan has described his reaction to hearing Hendrix's version: "It overwhelmed me, really. He had such talent, he could find things inside a song and vigorously develop them. He found things that other people wouldn't think of finding in there. He probably improved upon it by the spaces he was using. I took license with the song from his version, actually, and continue to do it to this day." In the booklet accompanying his Biograph album, Dylan said: "I liked Jimi Hendrix's record of this and ever since he died I've been doing it that way... Strange how when I sing it, I always feel it's a tribute to him in some kind of way."
He FEELS it's a tribute to him, when he SINGS it, but "took license" with his version, because he was overwhelmed by it.
Of course you can have your opinion on the show, but I think the critics overlook something when they come with the Deus Ex Machina point. In fact I think they are dead blind.
The show is basically what I would call an alternative version of the Bible, or maybe a PRE-Bible, and it's not that difficult to see. It has "BIBLE" written all over it, "God" - religion - plays a very dominant role in the show, and the way the show is actually designed they CAN pull the DEM, because it has been there from the start.
I mean, come on. Shows come up with all kinds of stuff that doesn't really exist - magic, vampires, zombies, aliens, WHATEVER -, and when a show uses God - or some creative power out there - it's suddenly uncool?
Nah. They play that card RIGHT from the start, letting the humans believe in 12 gods who they named their planets after which happens to be a slightly changed zodiac, while the cylons believe in the one LOVING god, and we also hear at every corner that this has been taken place so often before.
So you got to see this in the right context. If you can't do that it's your loss, actually, because not believing in God or religion doesn't mean they can't deliver a hell of a story. Just as not believing in Magic, Vampires, Zombies and so on doesn't mean THEY cannot deliver a hell of a story.
It's both fiction, and there is nothing wrong with it. And not at all kind of like Lost.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 11, 2018 09:21 PM |
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Edited by artu at 21:25, 11 Aug 2018.
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It’s not about believing in God or not (or any other super-natural aspect for that matter). I have nothing against fantasy or fantastic elements in fiction as long as it is not a cop out. But presenting puzzles with a sci-fi/detective story structure, hence, insinuating they will arrive at logical resolvement and then going “a greater power was behind things and everything you were curious about, it was him snapping his fingers” is just lazy writing, whether you have biblical references or not. (A quality writer is someone who can put such layers not instead of answers, but alongside the answers, then you will have a functioning story + an allegory.) To think of it, it is not even lazy writing, it is a hoax, it is not much different than selling fake shampoo.
There are also opposite examples. Star Wars (the original trilogy) for instance had this spiritual aspect, the Force was mysterious, you had to surrender yourself to it and let go of reason. And that had fit such space fantasy, it enriched it, it was one of the perfect elements the way that story was built from the beginning. Because Star Wars never pretended to be a realistic sci-fi to begin with, it was fantasy with space as the decor. Then, in the prequels, they decided to go a little more sci-fi and explained the Force by people having a thing called midi-chlonians in their blood, some had more than others like the Skywalker family! So, the whole spiritual aspect, the Far-East philosophy references (think how Yoda is pretty much Buddha, even a little bit physically, teaching Luke to look inside himself etc.) were screwed and now, it was about some Arian race of Jedi and their blue blood.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 11, 2018 09:42 PM |
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artu said:
But presenting puzzles with a sci-fi/detective story structure, hence, insinuating they will arrive at logical resolvement
What show did you watch?
Did you read my last post at all?
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 11, 2018 11:03 PM |
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Yes, JJ, I did and I disagree. I don’t think it was there from the start and I’m usually good at detecting allegories. I think it was a forced twist, a shallow twist. You can, of course, reconstruct the beginning according to the twist, exactly because the twist is deux ex machina and it can cover anything but that kind of defeats the purpose, doesn’t it.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2018 10:06 AM |
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Look, I'm not going to discuss on that level, because it's nonsense. You don't like the show, fine. But don't give me any crap about having a good reason "objectively". You don't.
If you don't see vast underlying religious, you didn't hear them mumble, so say we all. You cannot make a show dealing with the Exodus of a handful of survivors in search of the legendary birthplace of "the 12 colonies" without dealing with religion (and moral and ethic), and it's also no happenstance, that #1 comes as a "preacher".
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 12, 2018 02:25 PM |
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I do have an objective reason, they had built story arcs that led to nowhere. You are mistaking one thing for another, it is one thing to have references here and there, almost any sci-fi or fantasy work have such references, people usually dont imagine a new universe from scratch. (It’s been quite a long time since I’ve seen the show to give too specific details but I also remember noticing references to Greek mythology or American history as well), it is another thing to have the spine of the story as a biblical allegory. That was not the case and as I already said, had it been the case, it still wouldnt be an excuse for so many knots to be washed away. (The knots were not direct references at all, they were puzzles that were supposed to arrive at some resolution.)
Maybe, you are too proud to admit that you had been swindled. The problem is not that I didnt like the show, on the contrary, it’s that a show I liked couldn’t deliver.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2018 10:20 PM |
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artu said:
I do have an objective reason, they had built story arcs that led to nowhere.
Name one.
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted August 13, 2018 12:25 AM |
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Edited by artu at 00:27, 13 Aug 2018.
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As I said, it’s been many years since I’ve seen it, so the details of the plot are a little blurry, most of them I dont remember, there were at least three or four but here’s two I still do remember. There were two Kara’s for instance, she died and then popped out of nowhere, her ship was somehow unharmed etc. For a whole season, they used that as a suspense effect and implied there was an explanation, what did it turn out, she was an angel! How subtle and creative! I remember, I was so dissatisfied with the answer, I searched the net to check out if I missed something but no, there was even an interview with the writer of the finale, explaining how they focused more on the characters and let the plot write itself out along the way. Great technique! And you see, that’s the problem, if you make up half-baked stuff for the sake of suspense, your luck will expire in the end and you will have to run for deus ex machina. It would have been different if Kara had been written as an angel from the start, she wouldnt have been this passionate woman of flesh, who was in a love/hate relationship with the commander’s son. It is so obvious that they decided to angel her up later “along the way” and it just isnt good enough, it doesnt make much sense either. Two: There were these visions some of the characters had, what exactly were they, what enabled them and what was their purpose? This was never explained. Also, in the finale, if we witnessed the beginning of our civilization and sapiens becoming sapiens in the true sense of the word by a merge, how come those local humans with spears were cognitive enough to invent spears, that whole thing doest make sense as a plan anyway, put aside God’s master plan... It was once again a cop out, not a well-thought, carefully implented idea.
Just try this, knowing the finale, try watching the show from the beginning again and notice how many details start not to make sense. That’s probably why I met almost nobody who watched BSG twice. Without the suspense, there is no coherent story to keep you focused and the suspense ended in deus ex machina.
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Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 13, 2018 08:04 AM |
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Look, I did watch the show more than once, and in fact, watching it again, a couple of pieces fell into place. Of course, no show writes a story arc that spans more than two seasons, because you never know whether a show will see another one.
However, the main arc, when it comes to characters is, "the final 5", because you must explain why there are any number of the known cylons, but the final 5 are individuals.
You may want to read this or not, as you like, but the main thing you don't understand is, that when you write a show that is an alternative Bible version (and it IS one, because it's about the creation of the humans, where they come from and so on), introducing some kind of "god" may sound like a cop-out, but obviously isn't one, because there isn't any rational explanation to be had at that point. Technology used for creating something like the cylons (that don't differ from humans) is not really explainable in any other way.
But don't forget - it's a show, not the science revelation of the fourth kind or something.
If you don't like that - fine. However, there is a lot of that stuff, like, Balthar having hallucinations of his 6 right from the start, and later the 6 having them of him as well...
The show has a strong supernatural element, and with those human cylons it's pretty logical as well.
And just for the record: that Kara Thrace comes back as an equivalent of a biblical angel is a way better explanation than ANY main character in ANY chow surviving against ALL odds, just, well happenstantially.
Let me add for the record, that your "rationalizations" are, in fact, nonsense, simply because of the scope and theme of the show. Because the show is based on the fact, that some "human-like" species some time ago created artificially intelligent machines - god-like -, who, naturally, felt enslaved at one point, resulting in a war, resulting in an armistice, resulting in the artificially intelligent machines disappearing into unknown space, resulting in them coming back some time after that, wanting to destroy their erstwhile masters for good, meanwhile having developed "models" that are virtually indistinguishable from humans, cannot breed with each other, but can breed with humans.
Find an explanation for that which is within the known scientific range. Not possible.
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This thread is pages long: 
