|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
posted August 13, 2018 10:02 AM |
|
Edited by Minion at 10:39, 13 Aug 2018.
|
I've also watched the show more than once. And it works wonderfully even after knowing who the Cylons are (which is the biggest suspence of the show). But the show is much more than that. Weather it be a mutiny on board, dwindling resources, strong characters butting heads, it works amazingly.
What Kara Thrace was in the end is not a focal point to me at least. How people reacted to her return, now that was interesting. How tortured and fracked up she was even before that, and how it only got worse now that she was "something else". Also what do you mean you don't get the visions? It was clear they were some higher entities, they even appear in the end as beings.
The ending of something so awesome, ambitious and compelling was bound to be a let down for many, because it had to be an end. But the structure was sound, "All of this has happened before, and it will happen again". A cyclical story, the end is the beginning. Just like the song "All along the watchtower" 
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 11:34 AM |
|
Edited by artu at 11:35, 13 Aug 2018.
|
@minion
It will “work wonderfully” if you reconstruct everything in your mind for it to work but as I already mentioned, I think that defeats the purpose, once you have the super-natural problem solver, anything will “work out.” They could have walked on water, too.
JJ said:
You may want to read this or not, as you like, but the main thing you don't understand is, that when you write a show that is an alternative Bible version (and it IS one, because it's about the creation of the humans, where they come from and so on), introducing some kind of "god" may sound like a cop-out, but obviously isn't one, because there isn't any rational explanation to be had at that point. Technology used for creating something like the cylons (that don't differ from humans) is not really explainable in any other way.
How does it automatically become an alternate Bible when it’s about the creation of humans? That is a very overreaching association. And you actually confirm me when you say they took the story to a point where a rational explanation wasnt possible anymore. So, it is actually not me doing the rationalization but you, because you liked the show. Why would I rationalize myself into not liking a show that I liked in the beginning?
Oh, and if you want to see a story about humans -god like- creating artificially intelligent creatures that feel enslaved at some point, waging war, without any blatant super-natural cop outs, try WestWorld. Of course, such things are not within the range of actual science yet, that is why we call it science-fiction. You can still make it coherent, convincing and unmagical though. And as I said, the problem with BSG is not that it has magic, but it used magic as a cop out once the sci-fi got stuck, and it got stuck not because they had this transcending mythology from the beginning but because they went over their heads to create suspense, like pumping too much hormones in a vegetable and the taste was gone. It’s not about planning every detail from season 1, it’s about having a consistent cosmology and sticking to it, improvising within that cosmos.
Anyway, we’re about to go running in circles mode and it’s the music thread. I understand why you like the show, I liked it, too. I really wanted it to have a good ending but it wasnt even convincing for me. You seem to be fine with it. It really comes down to what can convince you, after all.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 11:55 AM |
|
|
I get your criticism but for me the meat of the show was the interaction between the characters anyways, and not how all the mysteries connect to each other. And I meant that interaction when I said the show "worked wonderfully" even the second watch. The desperate act of surviving, and weather it is enough to just survive. I loved it.
Wrong thread though so better put this into wraps. Comparing this show to Lost though was a cheap shot from you.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 12:12 PM |
|
|
artu said:
How does it automatically become an alternate Bible when it’s about the creation of humans?
An intelligence that can create a sentient species and put them onto a planet is fulfilling the "creator" part of the God job description.
The Bible is the story of how the humans were created and how their creator picked out a special "group" of them, making them His chosen people...
If you don't see the parallels you are probably just closing your eyes on it.
Your line of arguing is completely off, because it ignores the fundamental philosophical ground on which the premise of the series is standing. Your Westworld example is not quite fitting, because Westworld is based on a different set of prerequisites. The Androids are full slaves, and fully robotic, they are quite well distinguishable from humans.
The Cylons, on the other hand, are long past that stage and have somehow managed to BUILD or create human versions of themselves. That's something else entirely, and something that immediately sparks different philosophical questions.
Westworld, if continued, will eventually face similar problems (actually it's already facing them right from the start, but does simply ignore it, which isn't meant as criticism).
Now, what I can't agree with is this strange idea, that you are RIGHT to not like the show because it's objectively bad. That's just nonsensical. The show is massivein everything minion says, and the layer with the virtual cylon entity is PERFECTLY in sync with SCIENCE-FICTION, in both regard, because it's a FICTIONAL, but SCIENTIFIC explanation (it's god-powerful, but developed, once the artificial intelligence level reached a certain theshold). You may not like it, fine, but nothing short of something like that would be believable when it comes to the creation of the human-like cylons, the resurrection technology and so on.
I never understood what was supposed to be off with Kara Thrace coming back as something that is effectively another individual Cylon (like the final 5 are).
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 01:07 PM |
|
|
Yes, dude, I read the Bible, what I meant was, as a whole, it was too general and broad a theme to be directly associated with the Bible. There are references, of course, but then, not just to the Bible. Where it gets really specific is the Exodus theme like you say but even that is not a direct allegory of the Old Testament.
And I dont think there is something coherent enough to be called a philosophical background, some interactions between the characters may spark philosophical questions about morality and what it is to be human but that’s all. (I think WW does wonderfully with the solid philosophical background you speak of, without ignoring anything: It goes, “you are more like machines than you’d like to think, your algorhythms are not as special as you wish to believe.” So instead of going “can machines really become our level sentinent” which is what the audience is used to, it goes “your level of sentinent is more algorhythmic than you assume.” This is very consistent with recent discoveries in neurology, too and it is obvious they did their homework about it.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 01:42 PM |
|
|
It's not an ALLEGORY. It is VIRTUALLY a different "bible". As a story. A story about how things came to pass, why we exist and so on. With a different god and scope and so on, but still.
In the end, if you don't believe in anything except maybe science, the Bible is JUST A STORY as well (which has been made movies about, and a lot of them), and BSG is ANOTHER story of that sort.
The show in its entirety asks a lot of ethical questions, with a view on terrorism, state of emergency, political rights in a state of emergency - how to deal or not deal with a lot of issues, not the least of which is the question, what constituates a human being (as opposed to being a "cylon") when virtually no difference exists, neither good nor bad, the humans raping their cylon prisoner and deploying biological weapons against them.
Once the initial rush of fleeing from the onslaught of the cylons who hunt them is over, the show stops being a space battle show. It's more Homeland than Star Wars or Enterprise, if anything.
|
|
Zenofex
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Kreegan-atheist
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 03:02 PM |
|
Edited by Zenofex at 15:04, 13 Aug 2018.
|
If I say that Jimmy's version of "All along the watchtower" is far superior to everything else, including the original, would you drop the off-topic and start telling me that I know nothing about music or you'll keep going?  'Cause I'll really say it, see if I don't!
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 03:25 PM |
|
|
Zenofex said:
Jimmy's version of "All along the watchtower"
Who's that "Jimmy"? 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 04:15 PM |
|
|
Ok, things got out of context a bit.
I linked that, not because the version is so unbelievably great as such, but because it does a fantastic job of doing what it is supposed to.
It takes a very well-known song with an apocalyptic text, reminiscent of a Bible verse, with a chronologically warped verse structure (which is of course all very fitting to the show), does a good job of warping it musically a) with a hindu/Hebrew kind of folk sound (again, very fitting and in line with the rest of the soundtrack) and b) so much so that it's quite difficult to really identify the song just from the music, but with enough similarity to strike a chord with listeners.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 04:27 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 16:35, 13 Aug 2018.
|
Zenofex said:
If I say that Jimmy's version of "All along the watchtower" is far superior to everything else, including the original, would you drop the off-topic and start telling me that I know nothing about music or you'll keep going? 'Cause I'll really say it, see if I don't!
The original has nothing outstanding from a musical point of view but as I said, “a bard telling his tale” simplicity shines out the lyrics, which is what makes the song exceptional to begin with. And I really prefer how Dylan emphasizes the words compared to Hendrix in terms of poetry. Hendrix version has one of the most creative guitar even by his standards though. It is as if he calculated each second of it, one of his most architectured solos ever.
@JJ: Well, I believe in the power of a coherent story, that’s why I was disappointed in BSG.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
Minion
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 05:14 PM |
|
|
Yet oddly enough it has been voted the best sci-fi show of all time on numerous occasions (including a 2018 Rotten Tomatoes top 100 list), so we all probably know who are the ones in the right here
____________
"These friends probably started using condoms after having produced the most optimum amount of offsprings. Kudos to them for showing at least some restraint" - Tsar-ivor
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 05:15 PM |
|
|
|
No, I don't think, that's the reason. The coherence is there, it's just that you don't like the course it takes.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 13, 2018 09:49 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 21:56, 13 Aug 2018.
|
When the coherence is deus ex machina, it’s like playing poker with a deck of jokers, my jolly one.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 14, 2018 09:32 AM |
|
|
I think, you just mindlessly repeat what a few people said, namely George Martin. What he and others conveniently overlook is, yes, if you tell a regular story with regular guys, introducing some higher power doing something or being responsible for something, then it's silly, whether it's aliens or god or whatnot, because there is no connection to the rest of the story. You scratch your head and say, nonsense.
However - what if you tell a supernatural story (and there are enough examples for those)? With demons, satanists, occult stuff, ghosts even, death and rebirt and so on - then what? If the show is called "Lucifer" and "his Dad" appears, is that still Deus Ex Machina?
Of course not, because if the show is called Lucifer or simply deals with these matters, there is nothing wrong with that.
What about a show about humans being kidnapped by aliens? Those aliens obviously are comparable as well. If you tell your story, at any time said aliens may chime in to prevent or obtain something, because the story deals with them.
Now what about a show like BSG? People say, that god stuff was never in the cards and never planned that way. Someone decided to let Kara die for no reason and resurrect her for no reason, and that was that - but those conveniently overlook that something like "immortality" has been in the cards from the pilot on. Those cylons, not to distinguish from humans, are what is called a sleeve in Altered Carbon (and note that book was written in 2002, that is before the show, hint, hint), while their consciousness is "saved" and downloaded in the event of death into a new sleeve.
The question to ask is this: at the end of the show - do you want to have an explanantion for that prerequisite, why there are these human cylons, how it's possible they are in theory immortal? And then the identity of them - you get to know how many of them in season 1? Half of them. in Season 2 there is 1 pulled out of the sleeve, I think, leaving another 5. The difficulty you have at that point is, that you haven't seen any more copies; the five you don't know - how come you don't see them as Cylons? And how come, for frak's sake, that there are not MORE of those human cylons? Why aren't they developing more models?
So there are a lot of questions that are actually there when the show starts - except that it's such a breathless journey at first, they are not pressing. But come the 3rd season, and the journey slows, and that means there is more time to think and the questions start coming.
At that point, religion IS an issue. The repeating cycle is a motive. And the - in this even virtual - Deus Ex Machina isn't a cheap cop-out, but the only reasonable way to tape everything together, and in this case, with the scope dealt with, it's also ok, because everyone with a brain worth 5 cents can see that there is no other reasonable explanation for what the whole show actually starts out with.
I mean, if you start a ahow, and the hero of the show is a guy that can't die; he's shot, but wakes up in the morgue and is whole again; he's falling from the roof of a scyscraper, lies on the ground for a couple of minutes, then shakes himself and stands up. How surprised would you be if he turned out being an "angel"?
We can reduce this to two questions:
1) With all the superpowers and aliens and stuff that are part of the lore nowadays, and with all the downsizing religion and allpowerful beings and stuff has been experienced - how "deus ex machina" are these "powers", yet? And
2) Would it be better to not explain anything at all, as soon as a show works with things that are "not real"? (That would amount to the sad, but human conclusion, that ignorance is better than knowledge.)
No matter, how you answer this, if you claim what you claim, then you are just disappointed that they destroyed the illusion and you couldn't believe anymore, but in fact you should be more disappointed that you let yourself lure in without realizing that there would be a lot of questions to answer and a difficult conclusion to come.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 14, 2018 01:35 PM |
|
Edited by artu at 01:04, 15 Aug 2018.
|
I don’t know what George Martin or anyone else said about the show. In the last season, I said to myself, “I guess, they are not going to be able to wrap this up, please dont let this turn out like Lost.” It did. If what I say sounds “copied” to you because I use a technical term, I know what that term means since high-school, it was in a play Woody Allen wrote: God. (Where there is a literal Deus Ex Machina on stage and then the ropes get cut or something and “god is dead.”) However, it is so obvious that the DEM is a cop out, I’m not suprised at all that Martin says the same thing. (Which means btw, according to your lovely theory, that he doesnt have a brain worth 5 cents when it comes to these things.)
You can deal with the theme of immortality (and actually mortality, because dealing with a non-existent immortality is a rhetorical way of displaying how mortality shapes us) through fantasy or sci-fi. A very good example of a fantasy, dealing with immortality from a psychological perspective and without any DEM cop out, was the Anne Rice novel: Interview with the Vampire for instance, the movie was also ok. The sci-fi way to do it is usually through genetic engineering or data copy of the mind. Both in Altered Carbon and BSG, the mind is something that can be copy-pasted like computer data, it can be stored in the cloud, so death as in “end of your body” is not actual death. Now, in BSG we had Cylons and how they were “among us” and how they could be anybody. How any character could turn out a Cylon was the instrument of suspense in the beginning, this was all legit and logically consistent from a sci-fi point of view. When Kara doubled up but we were assured she was not a Cylon, this was an attempt of a twist: “See, not only Cylons come back, you thought you had it, huh, go figure this one out now!” Because at that point, people were simply used to Cylons resurrecting or characters turning out Cylon, yet, the show needed to keep the suspense alive season after season. The problem was, they couldnt come up with a rational story to back the next suspense up, because no such premise was there to back it up. “The only way to tape things” doesnt automatically make such taping reasonable, it makes it desperate. You said yourself that the show doesnt make any sense and now you are acting like it had some solid metaphysical setting from the get go, which it certainly didn’t. It’s simple TV mentality milking the cash cow, sorry but that is what it is, after all; they swindled us with pseudo-puzzles.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 14, 2018 03:07 PM |
|
|
Lol. Whatever.
Must be a real disappointment to you that it's the best ever SF show in Rotten Tomatoes. People are so stupid, aren't they? Simply fail to see how silly things are.
What's really disappointing, though, is that this is actually about how fitting the music is and the only thing you are saying is, Dylan rules, lyrically, Hendrix rules musically, and the show is crap.
Thanky you. Well done.
|
|
artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
|
|
posted August 14, 2018 04:08 PM |
|
|
It’s not about them being stupid, the show was very intriguing to the point where it failed to deliver a satisfying resolution. I mean, I downloaded the whole thing as a set and I remember watching episode after episode, till I needed to sleep and my eyes were red. Once people get attached like that, it’s hard for most of them to go “the emperor has no clothes.” Common tendency would be to rationalize the finale no matter what they throw at you. But since I also write myself (not sci-fi though), since I read a lot about structuralism and I also picked a class about conventions of sci-fi during university (and the guy giving the lecture was also the editor of the Asimov series, LOTR series and many more in Turkey, he was extremely experienced at comparing sci-fi and fantasy structures), it is easier for me to look through a distance. (Naturally, it would be easier for George R.R. Martin, too, unless you are talking about the Beatles producer. )
And I havent exactly said Dylan rules lyrically and Hendrix rules musically. That’s kind of like dissecting the song. What I said was, I prefer Dylan’s version because I think the song works better as a bard’s tale, but the Hendrix version has more innovation from a musical perspective. Both versions I enjoy, but “my” All Along the Watchtower is the Dylan one.
____________
Are you pretty? This is my occasion. - Ghost
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted August 14, 2018 04:30 PM |
|
|
You also have to consider with TV shows, that they write it from season to season.
What you describe, though, is what I told you; you was disappointed, because you expected things to be mindblowing. And what they came up with didn't fulfill that. For me, it was pretty fast clear that I was watching a sci-fi version of A (not THE) Bible, the one thing I wasn't sure about was who were the Jews, but as it turned out I was wrong, because "they", that is, the surviving humans and cylons, ended up being the angels of the Bible (that came down to Earth to multiply with the humans in the Bible, befor the flood).
I found that utterly satisfactory because I had expected something like that as well.
In a secular world, I have no trouble with "gods", American or otherwise.
Musically, the BSG version makes sense only as (important) part of the show, that's why I can rate it only with regard to that. Without that, I dislike Bob Dylan's voice and intonation, however, I also think that the quality of cover versions speaks for the quality of the composition, so all cudos to Bob for that. Hendrix's version is outstanding in HIS (own) way, and from then on he owns the song. I also think the U2 R&H version is extremely powerful, due to Bono's fantastic vocals, and they manage to let it sound like a (one of the really good) U2 song. It's totally different in many ways, but captures the, err, intensity. I know a couple of other versions - most diappointing probably the Dave Matthews version which is like doing a Stairway to Heaven on it which, imo, doesn't work (especially not with that song structure).
|
|
Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
|
|
posted August 26, 2018 07:28 PM |
|
|
Quite an interesting phenomenon to watch, as it leaves me rather skeptical while not having anything technically to blame. Had the kid been pianist, violinist or any other lone instrument player, I would not have same objections - wunderkids are a reality - especially when Russians but imo, when conducting a full orchestra, moreover of adults here, charisma and matured communication skills shared mostly by eye contact are required as well. I don't know why but I feel unease about the orchestra, they surely play the game but the whole experiment looks sick to me.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
|
|
markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
|
|
posted August 28, 2018 09:25 PM |
|
|
Greetings Sal...hope you're doing well.
I'm always interested in Orchestras and not long ago watched a history of Conductors; so I watched your link. One thing stood out to me, is that there was a lot of work in the Conductor playing the music as he/she envisioned the work but during the performance, especially if a very difficult work, the Players, paid very little, sometimes no attention to the movements of the conductor?
I found the portrayal of the youth, extraordinary in his actions but alarming in so young a person's facial expressions; the boy looked a bit robotic to my old eyes.
Of course, that was only an impression of mine and counts for little.
Backing up a bit, I am no expert on such Art but I did wonder, if this young fellow, also carried out the Role...fully behind the scenes? Or was he a child coached nearly from birth to absorb all that his parents treasured? Not saying anything one way or another; I'm just wondering about the behind the scenes.
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
