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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted February 04, 2014 03:58 PM |
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Locksley said:
6. Losses do not always mean deaths, it may also mean incapacity to fight due to wounds, broken equipment/fangs, fatigue, hunger etc. From that perspective it’s actually very fitting that the Heal and Regeneration spells bring back lost creatures to the battle!
Thats a very good point, Locksley! I have never thought of it that way. Although it does make some sense, it does not come that way in the game. So its not intuitive. I have been playing some Heroes 5 lately, and I think I can pinpoint why healing is as it is in Heroes 6.
See, I have been playing H6 for so long that I forgot how different the game is with 7 tiers. And really, I think 7 tiers is the way to go.
In Heroes 6, you start with some core creatures. You then recruit some more core, and while creeping you encounter other core/elites, and this is a culprit of the problem. Its hard to win against other core, so your only way to creep is to conserve your army via resurrection spells and abilities, so that your army in numerous and therefore you are able to creep further. Even when you recruit elites or champions, situation is almost the same. The power curve is so slight that you have to rely on numbers and your hero. This leads to reliance on resurrection, which in turn leads to massive armies over time, which then leads to trouble with balancing damaging spells, etc.
In Heroes 5, with 7 tiers you feel the power of your creatures and you use it! I started a game with some gremlins and gargoyles, and 1 mage. Now this mage was able to kill almost 10 skeletons with his magic fist, and it felt powerful.. But when I then encountered some elementals they slaughtered my whole army in one turn. In Heroes 5 its harder to fully avoid losses, but its not important since you can creep by different means -> by recruiting higher tier creatures. This way your armies are never truly massive, so its easier to balance spells.
What do you think?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted February 04, 2014 08:26 PM |
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Hermes said:
What do you think?
They reduced the 7 Tiers to just 3, but expanding them sideways to still have 7 different creatures, to reduce the overall power curve. Something that bothered the creators was that Tier 7 creatures would devastate droves of Tier 1 creatures, thereby reducing their effectiveness. They wanted to keep even the lowest Tier creatures useful in some way.
To be honest, I liked the 7 Tier system better, even if it had its flaws.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted February 05, 2014 07:09 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 07:09, 05 Feb 2014.
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Didn't they have a few issues in the early days where people basically only used Core creatures, because the other ones were just too expensive (or not powerful enough for their price)?
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted February 05, 2014 07:40 AM |
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Couple of things added their effect. For one thing - and especially with the lack of meaningful map objects - maps naturally tended to put outside creature dwellings onto the map, Cores being the preferred choice, for obvious reasons. However, those outside dwellings would produce nearly as many creatures as a complete basic TIER, so that would massively boost Cores.
Secondly, the Elite basic dwellings were way to expensive compared with the Core upgrades which not only make the Cores better, but also add to their growth.
Bottom line was, game setup massively favored to grade up cores. With the high costs of higher tier buildings, once you had done that, Elites wouldn't help you much, as opposed to, for example, the Town Portal buildings.
This problem was mitigated somewhat, but it's still underlying the game, since a lot of Cores have really (too) great abilities.
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted February 05, 2014 05:08 PM |
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Many good suggestions around about how losses could be treated as injuries, fatigue etc. I’m not certain I’d like to see too much change from the current concept. After all those spells and abilities like ferocious wound, searing light, weakness, and many others kind of simulates. Good and bad morale is another similar factor. Even an interesting stamina/fatigue system like Stevie’s would collide with that, not in game play – it would be a new interesting pressure - but 2 systems for the same thing risk being 1 too much. That make the point 6 thought is kind of difficult to introduce in the game in other ways than as an explanation to why heal and regeneration bring back losses without resurrecting them. Pity.
Regarding this: Stevie said:
@ Locksley
Which game are you talking about?
Maybe Raise Dead should be part of Prime magic? Or better kept as a Necro only spell/ability like in H6. Because I don't see that spell belonging to either dark or summoning schools myself.
At point 5 you contradict yourself a lot. You said earlier "that Light = Order and 1 Truth.", and if that's so, then Light also has a relationship with Chaos, because light = Order;
Also things in real life don't work like that, there are many opinions but there's always one truth. The "many truths" phrase is just an euphemism for "many lies". But let's not debate on this. Ashan is not real life 
I was talking about Heroes 5 in the first point, then about Heroes in general.
It’s good idea to make raise dead a Necro only spell/ability like in H6. Perhaps in a campaign there could be another hero class practicing necromancy in secrecy.
With relation I meant that Light and Dark is on the same scale, while chaos is principally different from darkness even if it has almost the same effect as Total Darkness. In terms of dragons, brother and sister are closer than uncle and niece. The dots in the yinyang symbol indicate that everything needs some of its counterpart. 
Hermes said:
Locksley said:
6. Losses do not always mean deaths, it may also mean incapacity to fight due to wounds, broken equipment/fangs, fatigue, hunger etc. From that perspective it’s actually very fitting that the Heal and Regeneration spells bring back lost creatures to the battle!
Thats a very good point, Locksley! I have never thought of it that way. Although it does make some sense, it does not come that way in the game. So its not intuitive. I have been playing some Heroes 5 lately, and I think I can pinpoint why healing is as it is in Heroes 6.
See, I have been playing H6 for so long that I forgot how different the game is with 7 tiers. And really, I think 7 tiers is the way to go.
/.../
What do you think?
Thank you!
I can see problems too with implementing it fully.
Considering the tier system I think both are fine, but 7 tiers are perhaps more exciting, there’s a sense of danger or risk of losing, or POWER, like you say that’s sometimes missing in H6. Heroes 5 was more exciting and action oriented, which was great. But Heroes 6 is, as a slower game but with much more interesting abilities, more strategic and about thinking, about creating chains of actions with all creatures where all of them have important roles. That’s good too.
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coupDegrace
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 17, 2014 12:53 PM |
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Hello i am new to HC and if there is where ppl share thier wish for H7 factions so ill give mine
i want there to be town like Demi-Human i dont know how they will fit in story
but the concept of town should be something like your creatures to be humans or demons initially and with cartain mehanic or spells they should transform(on battlefield) from human to demon form or from demon to human form(with some new abilityes and better stats mb?), mb some spells can make them insta transform ? and mb demon blood kinda mehanic?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2014 02:36 PM |
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Not happening. Although the transformation idea seems pretty cool. Though I don't think it'll work with humans.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 17, 2014 04:00 PM |
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An hybrid town...I don't find it very appealing TBH, mixing Humans and Demons seems wrong
And having all 7 creatures transforming would be chaotic, I'd prefer to leave the transformation thing more unique, like in H6 (Fate Weavers).
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2014 09:33 PM |
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Shapeshifters.. they could at least be neutrals. Or maybe 1 or 2 in the Sylvan line-up. Seriously, who doesn't want to see humanoids turning into werewolves or bears?
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2014 10:07 PM |
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Werewolves don't belong in Sylvan, they're too dark. Human-bear hybrids would bring accusations of "Warcraft ripoff" (as if Ashan didn't have enough of those already).
____________
Eccentric Opinion
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 17, 2014 10:49 PM |
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Stevie said:
Shapeshifters.. they could at least be neutrals. Or maybe 1 or 2 in the Sylvan line-up. Seriously, who doesn't want to see humanoids turning into werewolves or bears?
I'd rather watch a Titan vs Black Dragon battle
And a true, majestic Dragon, that inspires both fear and respect
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 17, 2014 11:57 PM |
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Like the HoMM 1 dragon? 
I think there should only be 2-3 dragons - the true dragon (something like the H2 Black Dragon or the H3 Azure), a bone dragon, and perhaps a fairy dragon.
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Eccentric Opinion
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 08:46 AM |
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mvassilev said:
Like the HoMM 1 dragon?
I think there should only be 2-3 dragons - the true dragon (something like the H2 Black Dragon or the H3 Azure), a bone dragon, and perhaps a fairy dragon.
But there are many more dragon gods. Having some sort of avatar for each one is not counter-intuitive. Only 3 seems a bit odd.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted March 18, 2014 12:21 PM |
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Don't think avatar's for dragon gods would work.
Imagine Haven with an avatar of Elrath? Wouldn't work. Nor academy or even Inferno.
Only some factions could have an avatar:
Dungeon  Black Dragon Malassa
Dwarves Fire Dragon Arkath
Necro could have Bone Dragon, but it wouldn't be an avatar of Asha.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 18, 2014 03:09 PM |
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mvassilev said:
Like the HoMM 1 dragon?
There was no Titans in H1 either. Doesn't matter.
DoubleDeck said:
Don't think avatar's for dragon gods would work.
Imagine Haven with an avatar of Elrath? Wouldn't work. Nor academy or even Inferno.
Only some factions could have an avatar:
Dungeon Black Dragon Malassa
Dwarves Fire Dragon Arkath
Necro could have Bone Dragon, but it wouldn't be an avatar of Asha.
(Bone dragon wouldn't be an avatar of Asha but it doesn't need to be - yo see, is the same concept of skeleton but applied to a (living) Dragon.)
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 18, 2014 03:51 PM |
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Am I the only one who thinks that Dragons are pretty boring in general? Especially the Bone Dragon. Even though I am not a fan of Heroes 6, seeing Lamasus and Fate Spinners/Weavers in Necropolis faction was a breath of fresh air(something that is so decayed, rotten and dead, oh the irony).
Of course you can add a lot of different abilities to make them interesting, but still in the end it is just a Dragon... on the other hand, avatar of Death, the undead creature that looks like woman with 6 arms, and that can transform into Spider Queen? With few abilities that are different between forms? That was just a huge plus, epic win for me!
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 09:30 AM |
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I'd like Reapers or Dread Knights as the Necro champions, and the Bone Dragon an elite. That, or they keep the dragon as champ but make them a bit more powerful. Didn't like neither the H3 nor H5 bone dragons, too underpowered for their tier imo.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 10:45 AM |
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Stevie said:
I'd like Reapers or Dread Knights as the Necro champions, and the Bone Dragon an elite. That, or they keep the dragon as champ but make them a bit more powerful. Didn't like neither the H3 nor H5 bone dragons, too underpowered for their tier imo.
I agree, both Reapers and Dread/Death Knights would be a better choice.
Bone Dragons were weaker in H5 but they had their use and that is debuffing enemy army, and they were pretty good at that. Unlike those, they were pretty useless in H3, I mean the only good thing that they had was the aegis ability, and that proced once in a millennium.
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Give a man a mask, and he'll
become his true self.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted March 19, 2014 12:18 PM |
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Ghost Dragons were also by far the fastest creature of Necropolis, and with flying ability they could get onto the enemies lines in one turn. That was big in H3.
But I agree that Bone Dragones doesn't need to be part of Necropolis in H7. Shaking a bit the backbone of Necropolis army (no pun intended) would be great.
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RMZ1989
Supreme Hero
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posted March 19, 2014 04:36 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Ghost Dragons were also by far the fastest creature of Necropolis, and with flying ability they could get onto the enemies lines in one turn. That was big in H3.
If you look at the faction alone yeah, that is correct. But that doesn't mean much when you compare it to the other tier 7 creatures and realize that vast majority is both faster and stronger than the Ghost Dragon...
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