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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 28, 2014 12:23 PM |
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Yes but u can cast it 2-3 times in 20 battles.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2014 12:28 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 12:28, 28 Jan 2014.
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JollyJoker said:
Your division is wrong. There is no such thing as religious magic, all 6 are elemental, as the magic comes from Ashas 6 children.
Ah, I see I didn't explain quite well enough. I was looking at a generic Heroes format (especially based on Heroes 3), not specifically the world of Ashan and their Dragon gods. Personally, I like Enroth / Erathia a lot more than Ashan.
Setting up the next game to include a religious connotation that's at least present in Haven (Monks, Crusaders, Angels) and Inferno (Imps, Demons, Devils) and to a lesser degree in Sylvan and Dungeon might give a number of nice hooks for campaign stories. Light Magic could then be considered Holy or Sacred and Dark Magic could be considered Unholy or Profane or something.
After all, our own history is riddled with conflicts that have their source in differences in faith.
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That said, there is no reason for most towns to not being able to learn each and any of those kinds of magic,
Agreed, but I meant it more like in the form of what they did in Heroes 3, where they limited spell tiers based on town type. Stronghold and Fortress had at most a level 3 Mage Guild, Haven had 4. By diversifying the maximum attainable tiers between the various Magic schools, you can give each town a specific flavor on the Magic side of things.
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Bottom line is this: while it would make sense, especially with so many schools, to somewhat limit access of towns to say, 4 of the schools, such a limitation would simply be silly, lorewise. Why, for Asha's sake, would, say, the Elves be unable to wield Fire Magic? Because they fear the casters may burn the trees? That's what Water Magic is there for, though, to check possible damage - after all, they will burn wood for heat and light anyway, so fear of fire would be foolish.
Just because you can light a campfire or hearth to keep warm and cook your meal, doesn't mean you should be able to throw around Fireballs or summon Fire Elementals  . Besides, being able to do something doesn't mean that you should.
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Another downside of separate elemental schools is the fact, that in such a case every school must have a certain number of spells. Think HoMM 4 - 5 schools of Magic with I don't know how many spells, but a ton of it and a lot of redundancies. Likewise, if all towns were limited to a low number of schools, you'd have to make sure that each spell selection was "balanced" against each other, which is somewhat awkward and clumsy.
I don't fully see why. Besides proper game design, the way Magic schools are assigned to the various towns can directly impact the spells that are present in each school. I would even go so far as to say that you may have town-specific spells.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 12:34 PM |
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natalka said:
Actually there is a balance in H6 about this:
might heroes can cast it for 25 mana.
First week you can cast it twice. Ofc you visit a dragon vein you can cast it twice again. In a map where there are 20 battles I think it is a very good balance.
Second week you can cast it 4-5 times only.
It is not like in h5 where you casted it 2-3 times to regenerate all arcane archers and the same again in next battle. Greetings to Let`s Fight map
If you think regen is imbalanced in the way it is then you probably like h3 style - heal level 5 or 6. But then you will need those masses of level 1 and 2 creatures to make it balanced.
I think it is the same if u cast every turn heal on one creature or to regenerate every 3 turns. Or to wait for level 5-6 to beat simple shooters- this is what stalls the game....I don`t see imbalance. If you think it sounds more pro creeping to play with heal so be it.
Even though cost is high, there is no balance, because you forget hero specialization of starting with +30 Mana capacity.
Now, if there wasn't that special there was a problem playing Stronghold and Inferno Might with a view on the fact that everyone else has a creature or even racial to heal things, the Dungeon being able to avoid a lot of damage as well with their racial.
This might have been interesting when you had made the spells largely useless for might heroes, but provided some other means for them, say, Stronghold gaining XP of their own dead (the forefathers) and Inferno by keeping some small part of a gated creature stack or something like that, but as it is, the higher Mana Cost for that spell is hitting all heroes alike and is just a means to reduce the amount of abuse.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 28, 2014 01:18 PM |
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Edited by natalka at 13:28, 28 Jan 2014.
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Why would I take the 40 mana specialist? That`s a liability when there are better heroes around.
We can`t debate around that hero - it is the same to talk about if a map is easy if u start with Havez or with any other Academy hero.
From the very beginning I told you that creatures with healing are making the imbalance not regeneration itself. You wrote just the same thing. Regeneration can exist and it is balanced for those factions that don`t have healing creatures.
Even with 40 mana special 20 battles are tough to handle if the battles are hard enough for inferno and maybe orcs.
But it is balanced because u can`t overuse it. Everybody saw the imbalance because on the other side we have factions that can heal with creatures for no mana.
Actually in my map I managed to balance all factions except Sanctuary.
First 2 weeks are equally hard not only for orcs, inferno, dungeon, but also for haven and necro because they have low initiative and they eat damage no matter what. If there wasn`t their healing they would be hopeless. Of course I balanced it by limiting the number of heroes with native troops that you can buy to 1. If I didn`t put this mod the healing capacity of cores jumps like crazy. Why not collect those chests and buy new hero with 10 more Vestals...very big mistake of devs. If we put the same stupid tavern in h5 we would get the same imbalance. or in all heroes.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2014 01:33 PM |
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natalka said:
I like how Dungeon without healing in H6 is on par with other healing factions creeping wise. The combination of manticore`s sting, high-damage output units and -5 initiative of shades is just enough.
Actually, the biggest boon that put it on par with factions that had access to healing was that the Dungeon troops excelled in avoiding retaliations to their attacks.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 28, 2014 02:00 PM |
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If you think that by attacking with your elite creature once a round when it is massively outnumbered is the biggest boon...
By mastering the sting and dividing the manticores in 2 stacks if the battle allows then you can power creep.
Who cares about no retaliation when those creeps reach you then there is no chance for you.
I talk about battles vs 50-80 Elites week2. You can attack with no retaliation with minotaur and manticore first turn. So what? If you can`t return minotaur to safety turn 2 and that will be the case with his miserable 35 init then there you will lose at least 1 minotaur. If you hide it they will walk into it anyway. And now let`s elaborate what did we gain - a small damage to enemy - maximum 2 elites I`m sure. Turn 3 all enemy stacks reach all of yours and you know what - they prefer to attack manticores so there you go - 2 regenerations spent for a minimum gain . I don`t want to discuss that you will have hard time filling the gauge for 2 turns in a row and that 10% increase in dmg may be better spent to increase dmg of your most damaging stack- eyes/dancers.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted January 28, 2014 03:47 PM |
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Against Creeps you use Reinforcements (II, in the case of Manticores). Since they always go for the Manticores, might as well use them as tanks to lure enemy stacks to them, while you decimate them with your other troops. But that's a general strategy, once you know which of your stack(s) act like a magnet to the enemy.
Dungeon is composed of glass cannons; there's no tank unit among the Cores. That means the only way to make them survive when you lack healing / regeneration is if they don't take damage at all. No retaliation means you essentially slice the damage they possibly take, in half. You could consider it better than healing / regeneration, because you don't have to worry about those hitpoints that you didn't lose and instead focus your skills / spells on decimating the enemy even further.
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 08:01 PM |
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How's the weather gonna be presented though?
Special indicators should show the current state of weather (the strength of wind, visibility and approximate temperature).
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Unless it's a fixed perspective (à la H1-3) with weather shown in the background,
I can see constant downpour getting kinda annoying after a while.
Wind can be shown through the animation of environment (trees, vegetation, flags). Rain is not a constant phenomenon. One day per week or even two weeks is enough. So it's not going to be annoying. But sometimes rain can be steady lasting several days and making some terrains more difficult to pass.
Implementing the change of seasons is also an idea of my dreams. Imagine severe winter that makes lands rough, covers water areas with ice allowing heroes to cross them without boats (at their own risk if winter has just begun / spring approaches).
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 28, 2014 08:05 PM |
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Urgh....I don't want to sound negative, but I don't like the weather idea at all. It simply doesn't fit HoM&M
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 08:20 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Urgh....I don't want to sound negative, but I don't like the weather idea at all. It simply doesn't fit HoM&M
 ...  Off with his head!! 
How can you not like a weather system?! It's like the main reason to play Heroes, sheesh!
And boys, while you're at it, add day times as well, like: Morning - Afternoon - Evening - Midnight. And maybe some natural disasters too, like earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanic eruptions! You could make it so that the weather changes from a map region to another and so on.
This idea is simply brilliant!
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SepSpring
Known Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 08:57 PM |
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I'm speaking about the factor that used to be extremely important in real wars and was always taken into consideration by military leaders.
I'm speaking about essential natural appearances, not disasters.
I'm speaking about the way of making "Heroes" a strategy that makes the player face real problems that real commanders had to solve. Historical experience proves that nature had often been the third side of war conflicts.
And you' re making laugh of it.
I'd better go.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 09:28 PM |
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Se.. SepSpring, you hurt me! How can you think I was making fun of you! Let me explain in more detail so that you don't get the wrong idea then!
A day system would bring a lot of randomness too, you yourself told us that great generals and leaders from history always considered weather as an important factor in battles. Do you think day times are any different? I say that it would affect greatly the way in which a battle goes: lack of visibility during mornings and evenings, midnight ambushes, castle sieges in the afternoons, etc.
And calamities happen! Tell me one kingdom or empire that didn't suffer from floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, drought, etc. These happen all the time all over the globe.
You see, I can put a serious mask on and talk about these silly things like I mean them. That won't change one bit the fact that they're silly! We should worry about important things like Magic system, Skill system, factions and their creatures than worrying about the weather. I wanted to be thoughtful when you said your ideas about it but you're taking it too far now.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted January 28, 2014 09:36 PM |
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Stevie said:
A day system would bring a lot of randomness too
Because H5 didn't brought enough randomness to the series, let's add even more!
Stevie said:
And calamities happen! Tell me one kingdom or empire that didn't suffer from floods, earthquakes, tornadoes, drought, etc. These happen all the time all over the globe.
Tell me one kingdom or empire that suffer from several calamities every week
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 28, 2014 10:35 PM |
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To my knowledge many noticeable earthquakes happen daily in Japan, I'm not talking about the 400 faint ones here. USA has a reputation of getting hit by tornadoes and hurricanes. There are almost 900 counted tornadoes only for 2013, and that was a good year, 2011 for example had 1600. I don't know if there is any country that didn't experienced floods or drought. In mine we get floods almost every year in spring and summer. But if you'd like a more extreme case, take India, where in the rainy season they use boats to travel on the streets. There are more rare calamities, it's true, like tsunamis and volcanic eruptions, but they still take place... so please integrate those values into a Heroes game, you'll be spending most of your time in your town because of bad weather. Oh well, guess you'll be learning skills from the academy in the meantime. Weather of Might and Magic.
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Natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 28, 2014 10:40 PM |
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Edited by Natalka at 00:13, 29 Jan 2014.
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I don't want to argue with u Maurice because u are a veteran from long time ago.
Firstly, in our theory fight there is a crack in your version. Reinforcing Minos will save their ass but next turns all stacks who reach Manticores will damage them and u are bound to lose at least one. Better to reinforce manticores and maybe u will get away without using regeneration.
Secondly, I was talking about power creeping where I strive not to spend single mana point and u said later in your post about using spells. Dungeon might has to save for regeneration if sh*t happens.
To sum up, I'm aware of your tactic but it works vs weak neutrals. If you are overwhelmed (75 spring spirits for example) the racial is not such a big deal. It is best in this case to use it not to be hit at all- hide a unit somewhere. 50% dmg taken and that your unit hits first on retal is great but in this situation is nothing - you will still lose some.
I think u also agree that dungeon's biggest creeping asset is the manticore's sting and followed by the racial, but if u use it to completely avoid dmg , not to take no retaliation.
I can now formulate what I think about regeneration.
I love guilds don`t get me wrong , also we need returning of heroes with scholar as starting skill. It is nice to search for such heroes and use them in chains. But if there will be regeneration in the new spell list and if it heals more than the top stack then I think all factions should be able to buy it if they don`t find it in guild. Those with "Light" affinity paying less than those that don`t have such native school. All other spells must be totally random.
About skills my proposal is totally random skills and perks like in h5 divided in 2 columns but you have 3 let`s call them jailbreak cards to take whatever u want :
For example, on next level up you are offered first to use a card or to face tthe random roll. You can choose from any skill you like and perks you have opened access to. We can elaborate more by giving 100 jailbreak points for a game. In this case let`s say "enlightment" skill will use up 50 points for orcs and haven(h5), the same for logistics of WIzard and so on. You can have random rolls which are fun but still you won`t be screwed becauese you didn`t level up logistics early or opponent had double stats with enlightment in a matchup might vs might.
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Bluesky
Adventuring Hero
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posted January 29, 2014 01:58 AM |
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Stevie said:
How can you not like a weather system?! It's like the main reason to play Heroes, sheesh!
And boys, while you're at it, add day times as well, like: Morning - Afternoon - Evening - Midnight. And maybe some natural disasters too, like earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanic eruptions! You could make it so that the weather changes from a map region to another and so on.
The idea is definitely original,but I don't know if it's good.Changing colors all the time could make your head dizzy.This is diversity gone to extreme.
Another problem they will face is music : how can they make hot compositions without copying the ones from previous games?.From what I recall the sound in the heroes franchise has died with H6.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted January 29, 2014 06:58 AM |
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Stevie said:
Storm-Giant said:
Urgh....I don't want to sound negative, but I don't like the weather idea at all. It simply doesn't fit HoM&M
... Off with his head!!
How can you not like a weather system?! It's like the main reason to play Heroes, sheesh!
And boys, while you're at it, add day times as well, like: Morning - Afternoon - Evening - Midnight. And maybe some natural disasters too, like earthquakes, tornadoes and volcanic eruptions! You could make it so that the weather changes from a map region to another and so on.
This idea is simply brilliant!
Graphics is something Heroes does not need to focus on...on the other hand: balance, replayability, hero skill depth, etc, yup those are cool.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2014 07:39 AM |
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Natalka said:
I can now formulate what I think about regeneration.
I love guilds don`t get me wrong , also we need returning of heroes with scholar as starting skill. It is nice to search for such heroes and use them in chains. But if there will be regeneration in the new spell list and if it heals more than the top stack then I think all factions should be able to buy it if they don`t find it in guild. Those with "Light" affinity paying less than those that don`t have such native school. All other spells must be totally random.
Right. Back to square 1:
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Natalka, there is a majority that wishes to ban all abilities/spells that can regain losses from early and early to mid play; thankfully HoMM VI overdid things so massively that the negative effects became rather obvious, not the least of which is slowing the game down.
There is nothing wrong with a HEAL spell/ability (healing X HPs of damage from the top creature; no bringing back of the dead) for a faction like Haven or a spell school like Light/Water - but basically that should be it with the exception of Necro antics.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted January 29, 2014 07:42 AM |
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Well in the end Sep has a point, having some winds blowing, rain or snow on the map which slows down adventure movement would be nice and make the game feel more real. But that's about it, anything more than this would be overboard. And about the Morning - Afternoon - Evening - Midnight system, Disciples III has it and I think it's a superb mechanic, at least for that game. For Heroes the week/month system is enough.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted January 29, 2014 07:43 AM |
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No regeneration is balanced. H5 proved it and H6 also proves it but you refuse to accept it.
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