|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted January 29, 2014 08:55 AM |
|
|
Dude, if it's BALANCED, why do you want everyone to have access to it?
Answer: because it's better than everything else at that point in play - which is why it's NOT balanced.
With YOUR idea of balanced, you can have a "kill all" spell from day 1, provided everyone gets it, but sorry if that's not my idea of the game. Sorry also, when I DO think, that you should have a play in the mentioned games if you select everything random (random town, random hero), and sorry when I think that things are not balanced when you have to take special care with a map to make sure it is (and still doesn't make it).
Players are not supposed to follow the ideas of the mapmaker OR ELSE are screwed.
If something is a must-have it SUCKS, plain and simple, because if something is a must-have you can make it mandatory - compare tactics in HoMM V and Tactics in HoMM 6, then ask yourself which is better and why. So if everyone HAS access to Regeneration in HoMM 6, and everyone DOES make use of it, ESPECIALLY an Inferno Might hero, even if you don't get that, because people play all kinds of maps, not only the one you provide them with - why not equip everyone with it right away?
Speak after me: BEING ABLE TO REVIVE A SIZABLE PERCENTAGE OF YOUR ARMY RIGHT AWAY IS CHEESY - and that's with or without creatures being able to as well.
Now, you just MAY have noted that Regeneration in HoMM V works slightly different than Regeneration in HOMM VI. First difference is that in HoMM V it's a level 2 spell, which means, if it's a REGULAR map and not a Natalka special map, you need to build 2 levels of the Mage Guild first in order to get it, which may take some time, but at least two days, which means, day 1 you have to go without it. Secondly - how does it work? Without Light Magic it works ONE TURN only, and regenerates 75% + 5%*Power of the creature you cast it upon. Now, how many HPs ARE THAT as a percentage of what your initial army has? EXACTLY. It's working like the Heal spell of HoMM III. Imbalanced? NOT AT ALL. OF COURSE, once you have, say, ADVANCED LIGHT (if you can get it, that is), it works 3 turns, and if you manage to have some Power as well, AT THAT POINT, you may actually regain more than the HPS of one creature back, which is fine IF YOU HAVE A HIGH LEVEL CREATURE in your army - but WHEN you have, you are in week 2 at least? IMBALANCED? NOT AT ALL! You worked for it, after all!
Will the DUNGEON, for example depend on it? NOT AT ALL - after all, they have their own Regeneration beasts.
Will you have to spend a lot of Mana for it, using it? YES, YOU DO - when you play Haven, for example, you don't have THAT much Mana, and you must get Light Magic to make it worth the bother.
Now look at HoMM VI. EVERYONE can already START with it - there is even a Regeneration SPECIAL, making the effect more pronounced. So you can immediately start with it regaining how many HPs as a percentage of your whole army? From which day on? Do you have to take extra care to develop the effect of the spell? (Answer: NOPE - it gets better automatically, but you might pick Earth Magic, if you so desired.)
Do you see the conceptual flaw of this?
Do you understand now what I mean when I say that it's imbalanced to have this kind of cannon right away?
If yes, fine. If no, don't bother.
|
|
Hermes
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 09:18 AM |
|
|
|
I don't get this - why do first level healing spells resurrect in Heroes 6 anyway? What is the premise behind it? Why should a barbarian lvl 1 be given a power to bring dead back to life?! This should be a prerogative of angels/haven heroes after all.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 09:24 AM |
|
|
Exactly.
Won't happen in any HoMM 7, should there be one.
|
|
Hermes
Famous Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 09:34 AM |
|
Edited by Hermes at 09:35, 29 Jan 2014.
|
Thanks God!
The mechanic itself is just silly - so you saying I can wait here on the battlefield regening my entire army while this one skeleton shoots at me right? So why can't I regen them after battle? 
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 10:15 AM |
|
Edited by natalka at 10:20, 29 Jan 2014.
|
I don`t know what maps you played in h5. But every map on TOH started with a magic guild level 1 so you can have regeneration on day 1. I don`t know what you are talking about week 2 to use it when I have personally used it in clearing medium sized Treant Thicket week1 day 6 and casted it like 5-6 times IIRC with week 1 army from 1 castle. Getting Advanced Light and eventually Expert is essential and kills your pace if you don`t get it but it is the same for orcs if they don`t get firt aid tent or tactics - that`s a major flow in h5 and because of this I prefer wild cards to get the skills if they are much needed.
The balance comes from the mana points - in h6 you can`t cast it that many times a week. In the first few levels it behaves like h5 regneration - you can bring back 1.2-1.3 cores per turn. If you think that is OP ok. You seem not to understand what I mean - I was arguing that in h6 it is balanced because of the high mana cost. Yes it is boring because everyone picks it because u have to spend skill points for every single spell. I can creep with other spells too but don`t want to waste all the skill points when I clearly don`t need them in final battle.
If they return guilds and make other creeping spells it would be for the better but please make regeneration buyable because I`m sure there will be factions that will need it badly.
Quote:
Exactly.
Won't happen in any HoMM 7, should there be one.
If you are a tester it sure won`t happen.
Quote:
The mechanic itself is just silly - so you saying I can wait here on the battlefield regening my entire army while this one skeleton shoots at me right? So why can't I regen them after battle?
In h5 it was that silly, yes, with 8 mana regen.
We can`t understand each other - there should be a regen in level 2 guild so one doesn`t get it at start but remove it at all- ridiculous. It will slow the game down
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 10:22 AM |
|
|
Quote:
sorry when I think that things are not balanced when you have to take special care with a map to make sure it is (and still doesn't make it).
What did you mean here JJ?
|
|
MattII
Legendary Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 10:32 AM |
|
|
|
I think that as well as the ways of acquiring spells, we should be looking at the spells themselves, and at the number of spells. H3 had 59 combat spells, while H6 has only 54 (not including mass spells, since in H3 mass versions weren't separate spells), and it only gets worse once you remove the Summon Elemental spells, that brings it down to 55 and 48. Really, there's no reason to have less than 55 standard combat spells.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 11:04 AM |
|
|
natalka said:
Quote:
sorry when I think that things are not balanced when you have to take special care with a map to make sure it is (and still doesn't make it).
What did you mean here JJ?
You were mentioning making a map, finally getting it balanced for everyone except Sanctuary.
I do not care about the way TOH sets up the maps - you are not supposed to have EXACTLY ONE WAY to clear stuff out week 1 AND in this game you are SUPPOSED to have losses, because only when there ARE losses there can be a difference in play (if there are none and exactly one way to go it's just a question of reproducing it: you have to make sure everyone gets the right prerequisites, and once everyone has them it's just reproducing the same tactics over and over and over again).
Don't get me wrong, though: I know, that MP play is something special because people want to be able to play a map to its conclusion in a very limited time - but that's in some way destroying what the game is all about; you might go so far and say, that playing MP is a game within the game.
However, that special way of gaming is just ONE WAY to go at it, and if the game works fine EXCEPT for that special variation of it, then people will just have to live with it.
Isn't that the same things with campaigns? I mean, in Campaigns you can have all kinds of fancy stuff - let's say "Living Artefacts" that store experience -, simply because a campaign is somewhat staged and if you are starting map 3 of a campaign already pretty powerful - so what?
However, such an artifact has no place in REGULAR single map play be it in MP or in SP.
Also, keep in mind that Regeneration was introduced with ToE only, changing the setup of things in Summoning Magic as well (Arcane Crystal is pretty useful as well), while Dark Magic got a Level 1 spell that screwed the usefulness of the perks when you get it.
Bottom line for me is, that making a map that forces you to provide everyone with a certain something because if you don't it gets imbalanced, ARE TO AVOIDED.
However, with regard to HoMM 5 and 6 we are talking two different things.
|
|
Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 11:13 AM |
|
|
Natalka said:
I don't want to argue with u Maurice because u are a veteran from long time ago.
...
Secondly, I was talking about power creeping where I strive not to spend single mana point and u said later in your post about using spells.
Feel free to argue with me  . Even if I am a veteran, lol ... I'm still just a human like you .
Ahh, some extra conditions to the Creeping . I wasn't aware of that. But I don't see how you can use Regeneration without spending mana in that case, unless you have a spell scroll (which is expended) or the Gloves artifact that give the spell. Also, against such odds, I don't think any race is able to win without losing at least some of its troops regardless. Necro may have the ability to resurrect the fallen troops through one of their town structures and thereby implicitely have zero losses at an expense of resources.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 11:30 AM |
|
Edited by natalka at 11:41, 29 Jan 2014.
|
I want to make a map that I don`t have to balance but it is the game`s fault. The factions are not balanced at all so I have to continue where the developers stopped. I can make a map that`s challenging even to Sanctuary and then all other factions will suck at the map. Same was in h5 - a mapmaker should care about resources and gold so that academy and haven don`t go insane.
TOH maps don`t have exactly one way - at least my map doesn`t have one way. If you think it is normal to have 5 cores per battle lost and when there are 20 battles first week then you will stop creeping too early. The idea in TOH maps is to lose as little as possible and that loss shouldn`t stop creeping. I didn`t say no losses at all but you need regeneration to revive the crucial stack let some others die if it is ok for u.
@Maurice
Quote:
Better to reinforce manticores and maybe u will get away without using regeneration.
Maybe I won`t use mana.
In my last game I ended with 15 mana just before level 15 and had to take 55 Minotaur Guards and 40 light elementals with the same army we discussed. I managed to win both battles with 0 losses and no regeneration or other spells. It was an epic level up for level 15. These were the last battles my hero had movement points for and next turn he regenerated 17 mana - just enough to cast meditation and continue creeping. I didn`t skip guards nor I lost movement points.
Such overwhelming battles can be done with 0 mana and minor loss(most 2-3 single 1s) with all non-healing factions also
ofc not all possible creeps can be beaten this way and a single morale can screw you so that`s why I save for regeneration in a last resort situation. And my idea is to use as little mana as possible in our case you would end up using 2 regenerations where I can afford to spend mana only for 1. Following this rule "as little mana" sometimes it is much better to cast single decay for 15 mana and then play it smart so no regen is needed!
|
|
Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 01:05 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
Exactly.
Won't happen in any HoMM 7, should there be one.
I like this. When I tried H6 beta I found the system so silly
MattII said:
I think that as well as the ways of acquiring spells, we should be looking at the spells themselves, and at the number of spells. H3 had 59 combat spells, while H6 has only 54 (not including mass spells, since in H3 mass versions weren't separate spells), and it only gets worse once you remove the Summon Elemental spells, that brings it down to 55 and 48. Really, there's no reason to have less than 55 standard combat spells.
I do agree that there should be a good amount of spells available - I always disliked the low amount of spells H5 had per school, even after TotE - but we cant forget about quality either. Redundant spells should be avoided, all the spells should be more or less interesting and have (at least) some usefulness.
____________
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 01:35 PM |
|
|
Well, I think that 20 or 25 spells per schools would be pretty neat. With 7 magic schools that'd be about ~150 spells. Maybe that's a bit too much, but I'd like it.
And H6 regen was OP in comparison to H5 one, which I never bother to take and use anyway. And no one rushes you to creep non-stop, if the losses you suffer prevent you to creep any further, then stop, that's the point in having losses.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 01:44 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 13:57, 29 Jan 2014.
|
Quote:
Bottom line for me is, that making a map that forces you to provide everyone with a certain something because if you don't it gets imbalanced, ARE TO AVOIDED.
I couldn`t resist to write something about this.
Actually mapmakers fix the game for you because the actual game is imbalanced.
Quote:
And H6 regen was OP in comparison to H5 one, which I never bother to take and use anyway. And no one rushes you to creep non-stop, if the losses you suffer prevent you to creep any further, then stop, that's the point in having losses.
I now grasp that you talk about playing another game. Single player game against computers? In multiplayer if you stop creeping you can as well quit the game and report loss. I agree that not everyone can play on that level but I proposed a middle ground for both types of game.
Because in multiplayer it is absolutely crucial to get certain skills when needed and a certain spells then let players get them.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 02:41 PM |
|
|
Typical talking past each other.
Your problem is that you THINK a game like HoMM 3 and HoMM 5 and even HoMM 6 COULD and SHOULD be balanced for MP, but that is possible only on MIRROR maps, when you both play the same faction on mirrord part of the maps. Not even CHESS is balanced, since one side has the advantage of moving first.
So the problem most of you competitive TOH have is that you should realize that a game with so many random elements can be played fine IN LEAGUE play. Think soccer or Basketball or whatever sports you like. If every game is some kind of final - YES in that case you have reason to complain about not getting two clear penalties or getting an offside goal and so on. Why? Because you didn't lose because the other team was better, but because you were unlucky.
However, if you play in a league, over a NUMBER of games, where you have to play each faction over the course of the season, with a rematch, where sides are switched, the better players will have a better result than the not so good players.
Look at DoC, for example, where the luck of the draw is STILL luck, but the better deck will still win more often than a not so good one, and better players with better decks will win yet MORE often than that.
So if a mage guild offers a RANDOM spell selection, you simply have to accept that RANDOM in this case means that there will be better and worse selections of spells, because you cannot have at least 32 different level 1 mage guild setups and have them all equally powerful.
Ironically, if you consider Bless and Haste (and the mass versions), the Bless spell is obviously all the more powerful the bigger the damage range of creatures is. So if you HAVE creatures like the Royal Griffins with a range of 5-15 damage - guess who's complaining about damage range being too big?
Then think variety: you MAY find a perfect balance between what Haste does and what Bless does - but surely, if bless works perfectly for damage range 1-3 (for level 1) you certainly don't want all level 1 creatures to have that exact damage range. In fact SOME will have low init and higher damage and some will have it the other way round, so it's clear that even IF balanced STILL some factions will be better of one way, and some will be better off another.
And that's why it's foolish to make a map that allows to take out a Treant nest on day 6 week 1 - provided you get Regeneration, because it means you must have level 6s on day 6, and last time I checked you need town level 12 to even build level 6 - so what does that say about the town level you start the map with?
You could just as well play a duel.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 03:09 PM |
|
|
Poor mapmakers ..they spent so long trying to make a map to please players and then they receive comments like "it is foolish" to make such a map.
No, the mapmaker didn`t allow to take treant on day 6 week1. I had luck with artifacts, started with Ossir and I made it possible. The other player even though an Emperor was surprised also and said he never seen it before.
I cleared it with only Arcane Archers and fodder. No level 6s here
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 03:12 PM |
|
|
natalka said:
I now grasp that you talk about playing another game. Single player game against computers? In multiplayer if you stop creeping you can as well quit the game and report loss. I agree that not everyone can play on that level but I proposed a middle ground for both types of game.
Because in multiplayer it is absolutely crucial to get certain skills when needed and a certain spells then let players get them.
You have the exact mentality as SepSpring, serve everything on a silver plate to all players.
So what if you cannot creep non-stop? What's the problem if your main has lvl 7 and the adversary's has 10? That's why you got a brain to overcome disadvantages! But I guess it's easier to set the game to give you the best skills, the best spells, the best etc. etc. than taking a lose once in a while and working to improve your gameplay.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 03:15 PM |
|
|
So you didn't need Regeneration? (If you needed your "fodder" to survive you could have picked Last Stand as well).
Makes your point about Regeneration quite moot, doesn't it?
You don't seem to have problems playing Ossir either - so what's wrong with Havez then? 
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 03:21 PM |
|
Edited by natalka at 15:32, 29 Jan 2014.
|
@ Stevie
When two players of equal skill meet and one stops creeping it`s not just 3 level difference but I don`t want to explain it to you ...
I said only essential skills should be given on a silver plate. I like randomness too. I think I can stretch out my brain much more than you as far as Heroes goes so don`t tell me what should I do.
@JollyJoker
I used it to regenerate AA or you thought they kill opposing shooters with 1 shot. Why use last stand - when there are better choices for final battle. I used it also to regenerate dancers(lvl2). I used Ossir because I found him in the tavern and that`s the reason I pulled out the miracle treant. Ofc I will take him in a ranked game.
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 03:57 PM |
|
|
natalka said:
@ Stevie
When two players of equal skill meet and one stops creeping it`s not just 3 level difference but I don`t want to explain it to you ...
I said only essential skills should be given on a silver plate. I like randomness too. I think I can stretch out my brain much more than you as far as Heroes goes so don`t tell me what should I do.
@JollyJoker
I used it to regenerate AA or you thought they kill opposing shooters with 1 shot. Why use last stand - when there are better choices for final battle. I used it also to regenerate dancers(lvl2). I used Ossir because I found him in the tavern and that`s the reason I pulled out the miracle treant. Ofc I will take him in a ranked game.
I don't quite see the problem, actually. With Reg you do not regenerate more than one Archer per turn at this stage.
At this stage, even with Ossir you have less than 20 Archers (and note that starting with OSSIR is as important as Reg). Now let's see: A Thicket comes with up to 40 Ancient Treants, 60 Hunters or even Master Hunters and may even come with 10 Druid Elders.
And you stumble in with what? Less than 20 Arcane Archers plus a couple of Wardancers on day 6 week 1, and you won because of Regeneration, because that allowed yoo to regenerate 1 Archer each turn?
Sure.
|
|
natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
|
|
posted January 29, 2014 04:06 PM |
|
|
|
What`s the problem here? I was a wannabe-Emperor at that time. After killing hunters first turn or actually leaving them at low numbers I concentrate on 1 stack of treants. They are large creatures and slow ones. Maybe I used slow. One stack slowed and the other I can kill easily with AA + imbue arrow+magic arrow. I used single pixies. I think it is not very hard for a TOH player
|
| |
|
|
This thread is pages long: 
