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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 12:04 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
@Stevie: why it's a dead end? Also, it's the only possible sub-factions for Academy (imo). Nethermancers not count, they barely can make for a sub-faction.
I don't see a "Chimera (beastmen)" only subfaction, nor a "Materia (costructs)" only subfaction, nor a "Anima (spirits)" only subfaction. And I don't think that Academy/Tower can be separated in such subfactions acording to the lore (I might be wrong, I have nil lore knowledge).
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 24, 2013 12:09 PM |
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No we should ban the idea of subfactions because IMO Heroes should be about the Hero (level- skills & ability) and the amount of troops (you are able to conserve on the map). Creature choice leads to to much decision making and yes, over-testing and balancing.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 12:37 PM |
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@ Stevie and Sandro
My last post should make it clear why and how.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 12:58 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 13:00, 24 Oct 2013.
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Hold on a sec, we're starting to mix things.
Is that Haven dutchies subfaction thing some kind of a racial? Like the Ancestor Pool from Orcs and the Necropolis Necronomancy? Cuz that's really not what we're talking about.
We want different lineups (preferably of choise), that means more creatures! And I thought that this could be done through subfactions for each faction or through alternative upgrades or even both (but that would be so hard to implement, let alone balance..).
So don't tell me that you though about a different lineup as a racial for Haven. That's just stupid.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 01:16 PM |
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No, it's NOT a racial - OF COURSE not.
It's just a suggested individual HAVEN way to allow options/variants with THAT faction.
As opposed to for example giving everyone one more Elite creature to pick 3 out of 4 or a specific alternative.
That's why I added the Elemental Nexus building as an example to give Academy something LIKE it, but something DIFFERENT.
Of course, with Academy being Constructs, Spirits and probably not many Beastmen anymore, for them, you might put in Rakhs and another Beastman/Mages fix plus one Spirit (Djinn?) and one Construct (Golem?) fix and let them pick for the other 3 between a construct and a spirit (or a construct and a Beastman or Spirit and Beastman), beginning with a Gargoyle/sand spirit and ending with a Titan/T-Bird pick, for example.
What I find also interesting is the HoMM 5 Haven special of what I call "Vertical Upgrade". Since it's race-based, you COULD probably use it in a broader way.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 24, 2013 01:26 PM |
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Or even H5 Sylvan's special "critical hit" in a broader sense...having subfactions instead of individual creatures as targets
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 24, 2013 01:27 PM |
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@Stevie - DoC already divided Wizards to 3 categories according to their Houses ^^
@DoubleDeck - and how subfactions impede the heroes? It's quite the opposite - the Hero might be also attuned to the subfactions theme! We can have Wolf/Griffin Knights, for example. Then it's possible that the creatures you'll be playing with will be directed by the choice of Hero, BUT you can try to play Wolf Knight with Griffin Troups - maybe it'll be a good synergy (let's say, in singleplayer).
Kinda the same was in H6, only called "Reputation system" ^^
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted October 24, 2013 01:39 PM |
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While I think War-overlords suggestion could work well in a practical game, it's actually very clever, I agree more with what JJ wrote.JollyJoker said:
I think it's imperative to leave the uniformity behind and go back to the individual structures of HoMM 2.
JollyJoker said:
I think, what we need is VERY different factions that play and feel really different as a whole, plus "a few" variation elements within each faction in order to have options. We must not forget, however, that there ARE options already, for example different classes of different heroes (if we take HoMM 3 as a reference), so we must not overdo it either.
I think, I started this "sub-faction" stuff by mentioning that HAVEN - and ONLY HAVEN - might get a "Duchy setup", so that players could pick a different setup from the onset, that would give different trimmings just for the visuals, a different animal in the setup (the heraldic animal) plus, since this may involve a switch Elite Core or vice versa a different human troop.
That's basically what my post on p 8 (and also on p 2) were about:
1.
It would be good with each Haven duchy having one unique extra, or possibly alternative, upgrade, but they would still have a common line-up.
The reason that Haven should get this special treatment is that the stories in the games focus on the Empire and the conflicts between its duchies, which are based on different medieval cultures. Some duchies (depending on geography) would be more important than others in the campaigns, but playing as other duchies in a standard game would be a nice gimmick. Would this little extra customizing make Haven imbalanced? No, all factions have their unique skills and perks.
2.
It would give good variation having necromancers with different style in games taking place in different "historical" epochs, but probably not as contemporary subfactions. I mean that both H5 and H6 necromancers work fine in their respective contexts.
3.Locksley said:
Many of you had the idea that a lot of cool creatures -> alternative upgrades.
Sometimes I think that less symmetrical factions would be a fresh way to renew the game. Some alternative units like in H4, alternative upgrades like in H5 and a mix of upgradeable and non-upgradable units like in H2.
Anyway, it's not impossible and objectively wrong to make subfactions for other factions as long as it can be motivated in the story.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 24, 2013 01:57 PM |
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Locksley said:
The reason that Haven should get this special treatment is that the stories in the games focus on the Empire and the conflicts between its duchies, which are based on different medieval cultures.
Or we could focus somewhere else than the Empire for once...
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 24, 2013 03:27 PM |
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Like in the Void 
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted October 24, 2013 08:24 PM |
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EDIT, NOT QUOTE! Baaaaaaaaaaad browser...
Subfactions away! Might as well look at what 3 different subfactions for each faction would look like, even if it never happens. And Stevie, it's perfectly valid for each of the academy subfactions to be spirits, constructs or beastmen, as long as they have a wizard to lead them it fits the lore perfectly.  And JJ, giving factions special treatment just because their boring lore says so isn't so much a good idea for faction balance. I'll show you an idea for what we might see with Haven instead of each individual dutchy.
So then, without further ado...
Haven
Being the quintessential human faction, we've seen haven around for a long, long time, and a relatively stable medieval heavy monarchy faction. But, if one looks at their overall lore you can see three separate overarching subfactions. You have the Empire, a heavy military, brute force physical core built around training and military might. You have the Church (or Faith aspect), which is built around Elrath and the idea of his mortal and spiritual servants coming to the battlefield. Finally, you have the Free Cities, a faction that would be high mobility and worships the dragon god of air, their faction would likely be more "Pirate-y" and most definitely be a "new" idea for Haven.
Base creatures for this faction would likely include the Archer and Spearman for core and the Heavy Swordsman (who would have a different name... I'm just not creative right now) and Dire wolf as their elite
-The Empire would likely have a Sergeant (Or other troop leader), Cavalry and Griffin lineup, emphasizing the mortal beings and physical nature of their armies. Note, this does try to represent the overarching structure of each dutchy, despite there being no unicorns. 
-The Church/ Faith subfaction would likely have a Priest/ Glory/ Angel structure, building off of the creatures most attuned to Elrath (the strongest faith in the empire). This subfaction would be more based on magical abilities and buffs to win their battles for them.
-The Free Cities would likely have a Raider (or other fast swordsman-y like creature), a Tempest Priest (worshiping Yylath, they would likely have air magic...) and the Roc/ Thunderbird, once again because they worship the god of air. This subfaction's lineup would be swifter than the others and more mobile, perhaps with a bit more range as well. It would have a mix between army might and magic.
Necropolis
Originally meant to be Haven's antithesis (I mean just look at the unit models in H5, tooootally supposed to be the evil haven), Necropolis has since evolved into a faction of its own. Now, while in the creature lineup there are three distinct types of undead, I'll admit that their lore isn't all that diverse. Therefore, screw the lore, I've got faction lineups. Throughout their history, undead can be described as either Incorporeal (Ghosts, specters, wraiths and other such nonsense that have no physical bodies), Skeletal (Skeletons with no fleshy bits) and Zombies (Any undead type that still has its flesh counts, so yes, under this definition Vampires count as zombies). Unfortunately, there is no way to make the core of the undead limited to creatures outside of the subfactions, since the subfactions are overarching creature types that are found throughout the undead of each game.
Base creatures would probably include the skeleton and ghoul as the core, because those two are just the epitome of "Staple" for every undead army, and for elites we would likely see Death Knights and Mummies. Why them and not Vampires/ Litches? Well, honestly, Vamps and Litches both fit different subfactions (I'll get to that in a moment) and I WANNA GET MAH DEATH KNIGHTS AND MUMMIES IN A GAME... Er... Sorry about that outburst there, don't know what came NOW DAMNIT. (Aka, personal choice. My lineups, deal with it. And anyone know what a death knight has below its armor? I mean really, it could just be the armor, it could be a skeleton or it could be a zombie. Death Knight, make up your mind already >:U)
-Incorporeal undead would be the "demoralizing" undead, and have ways to avoid damage and likely just melt through units/ fortifications. Literally. Therefore, they would likely be the most mobile of all the undead as well. Likely creatures would be the Ghost, Banshee (ranged screamer spirit) and Wraith (think H5 Reaper wraith here).
-Skeletal undead would be more focused on numbers than anything, with lower health and such but higher initiative/ speed to make up for it. Possible creatures could be Bone Hounds (Why are these not already a thing? I mean seriously... fluff wise "A deceased bloodhound that tirelessly hunts the living through the scent of their souls." It's awesome and you know it), Litches (I don't care H6. Litches are skeletons. Get with the program) and Bone Dragons.
-Zombies would be the tankiest subfaction, whether through pure health or abilities to heal themselves, they are just hard to kill. Creatures would include the Zombie (Noooooo, that makes NO sense), Vampire (Think H5 vampires... bringing much needed speed to this sub faction, and giving them a leeettle bit of army maneuverability) and... brace yourselves... Lamasu/ Namtaru/ Abomination. No seriously, deciding between these three champions is a problem. On one hand, the Lamasu, while being something that the majority of people hate, could easily fit the champion tier and are literally manticore zombies. Then you have the Namtaru, who are fleshy spider ladies no matter what Ubi says (They do not hover able the ground, swords do not pass through them and screw you Ubi, they are zombie driders with dark magic). Finally, you have the mish-mash conglomeration of corpses that make an undead Abomination... perfect for literally every undead army. Honestly, any of those three could fit as a champion critter for the Undead Zombies.
*Thinking about it, the Undead CAN be divided based on lore. The base faction would be Skeleton, Ghoul/ zombie, Vampire, Litch. You would have the "Traditional" undead subfaction (Ghost, DK, Skeleton Dragon) the "Spider Cult" (Spider, Spider tree thing, Namtaru) and then you would have the "Void" (Shadow demon, Mummy, Wraith... or Cthulu, Cthulu, Cthulu. )
Inferno
The denizens of hell Sheogh are nasty little blighters who seem to have one of three functions. They either destroy things with Fire, turn mortals against one another with Corruption, or simply Swarm in an endless tide until their enemies are ground to dust. Like how I mixed those subfactions into that one sentence there? Eh? Eh? Oh god I have to get some kind of hobby...
As a base lineup, one can expect a few things from the demons, you can expect to see the Cerberus and Horned Demon make up the core of the faction, and then the Juggernaut and the Lacerator making up the Elite. Why those two? Because I love them so, so very much, that's why. Also, other possible elites (Breeder, Nightmare, etc) seem to fit better in subfactions than they do in the core faction.
-The Fire demons would be more concerned with damage and speed than anything else, blowing stuff up with AOE abilities and the like. Creatures could include the Magog, Nightmare and Pit Lord, for all of your fire laden Armageddon needs. 
-Next, the Corruption subfaction, while demons and thus having a high damage output, would deal more with disabling and turning enemies against one another to ensure victory. Creatures would include the Demented, Succubus and Devils.
-Finally, the Swarm would literally be doing just that, spawning and producing massive numbers of cheep creatures even on the battlefield. They would likely get the most bonuses to Gating, from a hero standpoint. Creatures would include that Imp, Brood Mother (A shooter that can spawn imps instead of attacking) and the Legion (New demon... just a high number Champion that does things. IDK what >.> ).
*Note For every subfaction, I am thinking that the Hero could also be modified to fit the subfaction's general theme. So for Inferno, you would have a "Swarm" leader that improves gating, an "Incenerator" that does heavy fire DD and a "Corruptor" hero likely specialized in dark magic such as confusion and frenzy.
Other faction to follow when I get the inspiration... well, except for Stronghold. I think WO got that one down perfectly, and that you don't really need to mess with it at all.
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 09:06 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 21:07, 24 Oct 2013.
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This is going nowhere /facepalm
It just seems to me that we can't agree on anything.
I think I've been a bit too enthusiastic about the idea of subfactions at the beginning. After thinking about it I just don't see how it could fit all factions + lore + balance. And having it only for Haven seems waaay too unfair.
Having said that I think alternative upgrades is the only viable solution to the problem of lineups.
P.S: Thank you for the info about the houses.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 25, 2013 08:00 AM |
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If anything, let's do away with Core and Elite....
Bring back the Tiers 1 - 7
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 25, 2013 08:50 AM |
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As an idea in any town u could have 5 core buildings, 5 elite and 2 champion but u can only build 3\3\1 of them so this would give a diversity.
E.G. - Haven
Core - Praetorian, Marksman, Vestal, Wolf ( wolf duchy), Rogue ( raven duchy)
Elite - Griffin, Glory, Sun Rider, Crusader ( greyhound), justicar (wolf)
Champion - Angel, Light Dragon
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 25, 2013 10:49 AM |
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You mean going similar to H4 lineup?
I don't know, I do like the idea of choice and diversity, but what about unit synergy.
What I did like from H6 was unit synergy with other units (or even H5 with Banshees & Ghost Dragons morale vibe, for example). So with diversity, if you chose one core unit, you should choose an elite unit that "best" goes with that core, thus choice still being kind of limited. My opinion, maybe I'm wrong.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 25, 2013 10:52 AM |
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@ Gnomes
All nice and well, but the lore suggests different.
Asha had her 6 children and got them a race each: Humans (Air), Angels (Light), Faceless (Dark), Elves (Earth), Dwarves (Fire) and Naga (Water)
Urgash did the same, though: In a twisted copy of Asha's move he created the 6 Demon Overlords, one for each of his passions.
The HoMM 6 Inferno factions has
Maniacs (Madness)
Doggies (Voracity)
Succubus (none)
Breeders (Proliferation)
Tormentor (Pain)
Juggernaut (Destruction)
Pit Fiends (Hate)
So Inferno has currently one creature of each "race" plus the somewhat unrelated Succubus - Succubae and Incubae are basically the shapes "converted" Asha-children take after their respawn.
So that actually means that the sub factions would basically be Madness, Voracity, Proliferation, Pain, Destruction and Hate. Obviously this would allow using the DoC way of creating variations of the same thing: Imps would be Proliferation, obviously, since they are produced and devoured by Breeders, but Hellfire-Imps might be a Destruction variant. Nightmares would be Madness, but there might be a Pain variant as well.
However, this would incite a kind of new creation war - but might become interesting as well. Of course not all in one game. But once Chaos and Order would really fight for Ashan, it would be interesting to have 6 different Inferno factions tzhat would OF COURSE battle more against each other than against the forces of Order. 
Anyways, won't happen.
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted October 25, 2013 10:54 AM |
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Succubus = lust = proliferation
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 25, 2013 11:24 AM |
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Hermes said:
Succubus = lust = proliferation
it is stated in in-game lore that succubi are children of asha turned\fallen
alos if we are to go with subfactions
Haven would have the units in-game now as the imperial\falcon units
then from doc:
wolf duchy units
griffin duchy units
crusader ( I believe they are greyhound duchy units since it's the closer to the silver city desert where the crusades traditionally take place)
my ideas
unicorn duchy units could be ranger like units for a forest like subfaction with unicorn (like the sec upgrade for the unicorn in homm5 which is stated to be a children of elrath)
bull duchy ( I guess conquistador like units)
stag duchy units see unicorn ( no point in having 2 similar subfactions)
raven duchy units should be rogue like, dark magic units
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 25, 2013 11:58 AM |
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I wonder how Dwarves would have sub-factions? Seems impossible, they are all under the mountain digging gold and part of the same group!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 25, 2013 12:07 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
I wonder how Dwarves would have sub-factions? Seems impossible, they are all under the mountain digging gold and part of the same group!
Noone wants to see Dwarves again anyway, so why caring about them
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This thread is pages long: 
