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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 23, 2013 06:23 PM |
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Good point with sub-factions, War-Overlord. Agreed here. Though hyenas seem to fit Desert Orcs more than Steppe ones.
And ofc it has its flaws - some factions have more sub-factions than others (compare Haven-Stronghold). I don't think that'll be any good.
But, Haven and Inferno can be divided into 6 Duchies/Overlords, Dwarves may also be divided into 6 clans (though not of them are battle clans, so its a bad idea), Dark Evles - into 3 clans.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 23, 2013 06:40 PM |
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You cannot, when implementing such a system assign one faction 3 subfaction and others 6 and even other 5 or 2. You need to keep the number equal across the board.
In regards to Haven, I viewed the subfactions as being 3 seperte coalitions of 2 non-Imperial Duchies. As in Duchies that aren't the the same as the current Emperor. So you could have 1 coalition subfaction be the Stag and Unicorn Duchies.
The Ranaar Orcs, according to the Compendium regularly ride Dire Hyenas and the Sahaar ones already get Gnolls.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 23, 2013 08:16 PM |
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So basically 3 lineups for each faction? Seems a reasonable amount. On some it may be different "sub-factions creatures", but others could be just different lineups (like Necropolis for example) just for the sake of it.
And, unlike my alternative units proposal, WO gives consistency to each subfaction, which I like it 
(now let's see if JJ has to say something about this  )
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2013 08:50 PM |
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I disagree with War-Overlord; I think it's imperative to leave the uniformity behind and go back to the individual structures of HoMM 2.
We need just really different factions - balance is a b1tch anyway. The formula should change with each game and story.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 23, 2013 09:17 PM |
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War-overlord said:
You cannot, when implementing such a system assign one faction 3 subfaction and others 6 and even other 5 or 2. You need to keep the number equal across the board.
In regards to Haven, I viewed the subfactions as being 3 seperte coalitions of 2 non-Imperial Duchies. As in Duchies that aren't the the same as the current Emperor. So you could have 1 coalition subfaction be the Stag and Unicorn Duchies.
The Ranaar Orcs, according to the Compendium regularly ride Dire Hyenas and the Sahaar ones already get Gnolls.
And that's why I am saying that this idea needs polishing. But yeah, 3 seems a reasonable amount. But what to do with Sylvans for example?
Nope. "Steppe and Desert Orcs are nomad warriors, born in the saddle, and they train their mounts (aurochs, dire wolves, giant hyenas...) for battle". As you can see, that's not "Steppe orcs only", but a list of mounts they use. And it's pretty obvious that, for example, Desert Orcs don't use dire wolves 'cos, well, there's no wolves in deserts)) Hyenas go to Sahaar Orc. You may give Ranaar Orcs Wolf Riders like in old H3.
JJ, yeah, we need different factions, but that doesn't contradict with WO idea. They can be different and they can have 3 lineups. Don't see a problem.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2013 09:40 PM |
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Ok, I agree with the idea of having specific creatures for a faction and different creatures for that faction's subfactions. But if you're unwilling to give each faction the number of subfactions that the lore requires (like 6 to Haven while only 3 to Orcs and prolly 1 to Necropolis) then you get a story problem. And if you do, then you get an imbalanced game. So regardless of what you choose you'll still end up being stuck with one problem. I don't see any viable solutions for neither of those.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 23, 2013 10:01 PM |
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Stevie said:
Ok, I agree with the idea of having specific creatures for a faction and different creatures for that faction's subfactions. But if you're unwilling to give each faction the number of subfactions that the lore requires (like 6 to Haven while only 3 to Orcs and prolly 1 to Necropolis) then you get a story problem. And if you do, then you get an imbalanced game. So regardless of what you choose you'll still end up being stuck with one problem. I don't see any viable solutions for neither of those.
Not all Duchies have the same importance and power, so it isn't neccessary to have all of them for multiplayer (in singleplayer you could have all six of them ofc).
I still like WO idea
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 23, 2013 10:10 PM |
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Sandro400 said:
JJ, yeah, we need different factions, but that doesn't contradict with WO idea. They can be different and they can have 3 lineups. Don't see a problem.
If they all have 3 lineups they are not different. And the more lineups they have the less different they can be anyway.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 12:10 AM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Not all Duchies have the same importance and power, so it isn't neccessary to have all of them for multiplayer (in singleplayer you could have all six of them ofc).
I still like WO idea
So you'll have to squeeze 6 dutchies into 3, or outright remove 3 for Haven to fit WO's idea. Then you'll have to get 3 subfactions out of Necropolis which is already a subfaction of Academy. And so on with the other races, sylvan, dungeon, fortress, etc.
So either you'll have to spread too thin like in Necropolis' case or have to squeeze 6 subfactions into 3 like in Haven's case. I don't really aprove of such an idea.
You either get the number of subfactions that the lore requires or forget it. And if you do, it won't be fair to have an alignment with 6 subfactions and one with just 1.
WO didn't pick orcs for no reason. It's because that alignment fits his idea. You got that magical number of 3 subfactions which fits the lore and it's quite balanced. But the others fail miserably, because they don't fit nor lore, nor balance.
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jhb
Famous Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 02:14 AM |
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I saw some hints in H6.. indicating a possible swamp faction.
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted October 24, 2013 07:09 AM |
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Slightly out of topic but just wanted to say in regards to Elvin's 1st post that haven is a defensive faction in homm games, but in DoC with Sandalphon is truly offensive, his 2 main strats being either semi-rush removal based on resource superiority or the fortune combo.
Sorry if out of topic. 
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 24, 2013 09:57 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
If they all have 3 lineups they are not different. And the more lineups they have the less different they can be anyway.
Well, if they all have 3/7 tiers, they're not different, are they?))
Diffenert number of subfactions may cause a huge disbalance and, occasionally, fan-rage.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 24, 2013 10:26 AM |
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jhb said:
I saw some hints in H6.. indicating a possible swamp faction.
Not in Ashan though...
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 10:29 AM |
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Sandro400 said:
JollyJoker said:
If they all have 3 lineups they are not different. And the more lineups they have the less different they can be anyway.
Well, if they all have 3/7 tiers, they're not different, are they?))
Not in that regard, no.
Quote:
Diffenert number of subfactions may cause a huge disbalance and, occasionally, fan-rage.
However, it also MAY NOT.
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 24, 2013 10:36 AM |
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Watcher83, ofc there're exceptions in each faction, but mainly Haven focuses on defence and retaliation (Guards trio, Wolf Soldiers). High resourse production is also one of the strong points of this faction. Sorry for off-top)
DoubleDeck, there may be possible swamp sub-faction as a non-playable neutral force (like Pirates). At least we have Lizardmen.
P.S.: Academy can be divided in 3 Houses - Chimera (beastmen), Materia (costructs), Anima (spirits).
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 24, 2013 10:39 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
However, it also MAY NOT.
Well, kinda agree. May be it won't cause disbalance, this thing needs testing. And it's kinda good idea, I hope insiders will pass it on to the devs.
P.S.: factions with 3/7 tiers and 3 sub-factions will not be different. However, they also MAY BE. (c)
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 11:26 AM |
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Well, as a whole they may be, sure, but the thing is this, and obviously so: The more in keeping with a faction character the sub-factions are, the more marginal the differences will be, while at the same time the bigger the differences are, the more alike the factions as a whole will become.
There is also the racial: consider for example Necropolis, and let's assume a traditional raising special, either Skeletons or HoMM 5's version of all creatures raising to different creatures - would be strange and also difficult with 3 halfway different Necropolis factions, right?
With 3 meaningfully different "Sub-factions" and 6 factions, instead of having 15 different 2-player-setups to test you had to test 153 or about 10 times as many...
I think, what we need is VERY different factions that play and feel really different as a whole, plus "a few" variation elements within each faction in order to have options. We must not forget, however, that there ARE options already, for example different classes of different heroes (if we take HoMM 3 as a reference), so we must not overdo it either.
I think, I started this "sub-faction" stuff by mentioning that HAVEN - and ONLY HAVEN - might get a "Duchy setup", so that players could pick a different setup from the onset, that would give different trimmings just for the visuals, a different animal in the setup (the heraldic animal) plus, since this may involve a switch Elite Core or vice versa a different human troop.
Example: Griffin is known. If we switch to Wolf, we would take out Griffin and either Praetorians or Sisters and add Wolves as new Core and either a Battle Priest Elite (for sisters) or any Elite troop, from Pegasus Riders to Armoured Halberdiers for stopping Cavalry Charges (Retal against charging units doubles, damage of those halved).
That was just an idea to MAKE HAVEN MORE INTERESTING and allow a more f(r)actional play of them.
However, it would be a bad idea to make what is something special common for everyone - the art of making an exceptionally good game would be to add a different, but equally interesting something to EVERY faction, instead of just making everything the same.
I think, there are lots of ways to do that, FINDING them, that's the creative part.
Another example: ONE faction - say, Academy - might have an Elemental Nexus in their town, allowing them to build it and recruit ONE type of Elemental, that they could pick in each game, when they would build it. This would be an ADDITIONAL Elite dwelling.
Does that sound interesting? I think so, considering there may be lots of interactions with Elementals and Elemental magic, which might mean that with the Elemental pick they would also pick some kind of amplifier for that elemental magic.
Alternatively they might get a PRIME Elemental (a new and special elemental like the Magic one of Conflux town in HoMM 3). Or both.
Bottom line is - I would wish for more CREATIVITY, for fun's sake; I mean, balance is obviously overrated, because when was a HoMM game ever "balanced", but that didn't stop anyone having fun, right?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 11:26 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 11:37, 24 Oct 2013.
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Sandro400 said:
P.S.: Academy can be divided in 3 Houses - Chimera (beastmen), Materia (costructs), Anima (spirits).
As subfactions?! You must be kidding. It's a dead end idea, lets just face it.
@ JJ: So you want subfactions only for Haven but not for the other alignments. What's the reasoning behind this argument? "Just because" won't cut it.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 24, 2013 11:54 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:57, 24 Oct 2013.
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Maybe each sub-faction could be focussed around a single player style, say, expanding (units are faster than the other factions', but less durable), tanking (middle-of-the-road) and turtling (units are tougher than other factions', but slower).
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Sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted October 24, 2013 11:54 AM |
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@JJ: Agreed with Stevie, if you give Haven Duchies setup, then you must give something to others to compensate. As overall, subfactions seem pretty sweet, while it'll take some time to test for sure. But should we ban this idea only 'cos it's hard to implement?
@Stevie: why it's a dead end? Also, it's the only possible sub-factions for Academy (imo). Nethermancers not count, they barely can make for a sub-faction.
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