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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2013 12:17 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
I wonder how Dwarves would have sub-factions? Seems impossible, they are all under the mountain digging gold and part of the same group!
Where warfare is concerned, 3 of the 5 clans are more than superficially involved as opposed to the other 2.
The "non-involved" clans are: the Stronghammer, who are blacksmiths and metalworkers & the Stonefists, who are architects and stonemasons.
The other 3 are more involved. The Grimsteels are warriors (who could focus on defensive warfar), The Winterwinds are beastmasters and explorers (who could be a jack-of-all-trades kind of focus with less of focus but more diversity) and the Deepflames are lorekeepers and Fire Priests (who could focus on magical/fire warfare).
So, possible subfactions could be the Grimsteels, the Winterwinds and the Deepflames, where the basic faction could contain fighters that are recruited from all clans and none in particular, like crossbow-archers and siege-engineers.
As said or implied by others, such subfactions need not represent hostile internal division. They can rather represent different lifestyles among the parts of the society.
Similarly, Dungeon could be subdivided by their 3 largest Clans. Namely the Soulscar, the Nightshard and the Shadowbrand.
Where the Soulscar, who are fascinated by pain could be a more direct-damage focus, the Shadowbrand who are fascinated by secrets could be a stealth/assasinated orriented and the Shadowbrand who are fascinated by emotions could be into the manipulative aspect of shadowmagic. Where the basis would be with various non elven creatures like manticores and minotaurs or non-associated D-Elves
And further more, Sylvan could be subdivided by the three main casts of Sylvan society, those being the Hunters, the Bladedancers and the Druids.(compliment of the Compendium) The way of the Hunter could focus on ambush-warfare, the way of the Blade-dancer could focus more upon direct warfare and the way of the Druid could revolve more about nature-spirits and earth magic. Where the basis could revolve around Archery and Animal allies like Unicorns and such.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 25, 2013 01:37 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
Noone wants to see Dwarves again anyway, so why caring about them
Now you've "runed" it
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Locksley
Promising
Famous Hero
Wielding a six-string
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posted October 25, 2013 02:04 PM |
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Edited by Locksley at 14:15, 25 Oct 2013.
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Storm-Giant said:
Locksley said:
The reason that Haven should get this special treatment is that the stories in the games focus on the Empire and the conflicts between its duchies, which are based on different medieval cultures.
Or we could focus somewhere else than the Empire for once...
We could  With a focus somewhere else the empire could be treated as a single state, a coherent actor going to war against another country like in H5’s macro perspective, or as a unified external actor going to war against a specific necromancer/wizard/orc sub faction in a story about Academic civil war or Orc crusades or something. I have nothing against a such a game, it would be a fresh way to move away from the knight focus.
On the other hand, the Empire is based on the parts of Europe where the feudal and religious systems were especially strong and held together a lot of different peoples. It’s reasonable that the largest and most populated country with many types of nature in it have more cultural variation than countries/nations in isolated places such as the hot desert, dense forest, frozen north, vast steppes and underground caverns where not many people can live.
Only in the Naga Empire there are also hints about cultural variation as it ranges from the deepest oceans to the mountain glaciers. In H6 Hashima was treated as a single country, while the Falcon Empire was portrayed as a bunch of semi-independent duchies. From a story perspective Hashima is too far away from the other factions, but the Human Empire is centrally located which means that when a story focus on its neighbours it’s extremely likely that nearby semi independent duchies, rather than the Empire as a single actor, have a part in the plot. I think it would be a nice thing to make them “same but slightly different” instead of just making them “Blue or Red flag”.
The whole Ashan geography and culture is restrictive from a story perspective, and there are certainly some issues with its Eurocentric (just look at the map) perspective. But Ashan is just like 99% of all worlds in fantasy literature before and after Middle Earth just a magical setting for stories about how knights defend the Good against the Evil. I think Ashan actually is a relatively good example of how aspects from all kinds of mythologies and cultures can be mixed in a sympathetic way; there are attempts to make all factions likeable and there protagonists on all sides, there are plenty of room for magical effects and diverse gameplay while the actual mechanics can vary between games, and there’s potential to make engaging stories about Evil influence and invasion, political scheming and personal quests.
gnomes2169, Your sub faction sketch could be a good foundation for a system where Hero Reputation and Background also reflects what creatures the heroes of different reputation would command. War-overlord said:
As said or implied by others, such subfactions need not represent hostile internal division. They can rather represent different lifestyles among the parts of the society.
Good point, good possible directions within the Elven and Dwarven factions.
Stevie said:
This is going nowhere /facepalm
It just seems to me that we can't agree on anything.
I think I've been a bit too enthusiastic about the idea of subfactions at the beginning. After thinking about it I just don't see how it could fit all factions + lore + balance. And having it only for Haven seems waaay too unfair.
Having said that I think alternative upgrades is the only viable solution to the problem of lineups.
P.S: Thank you for the info about the houses.
We don’t need to agree and we can still appreciate and inspire each other’s creativity. Haven duchies can have unique upgrades while other factions have an extra unique skill or something else that make them adaptive in different maps or vs different factions. I think most ideas presented in this thread could function well in terms of ”factions + lore + balance” in different games depending on which "level" the story takes places.
P.S: When looking for duchy maps I eventually found this site, with additional info about ducal houses in the Holy Griffin Empire section.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 25, 2013 03:27 PM |
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DoubleDeck said:
Storm-Giant said:
Noone wants to see Dwarves again anyway, so why caring about them
Now you've "runed" it
The exception that proves the rule!
@War-Overlord: wow, so much knowledge about Ashan
It looks like every faction could "easily" have 3 subfactions, one way or another. Good to hear
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2013 03:39 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
@War-Overlord: wow, so much knowledge about Ashan
It looks like every faction could "easily" have 3 subfactions, one way or another. Good to hear
I'm a history student, lore such as this and conflicts with real-life historical cultures are my Bread & Butter around this forum.(Or at least Crackers and Mustard)
The only one I would have problems with is Inferno. JJ's criticism upon Gnomes is insofar valid that Swarm, Fire and Corruption have a very very limited basis in lore. On the other hand, his proposal for the 6 overlords is equally troublesome, since those overlords have little importance or influence on their once-followers after their defeat at the hands of the Demon Sovereign.
As was rightly put, Academy could be well split into subfactions along the 3 houses of Anima, Materia and Chimera.
As Gnomes rightly suggested, Necropolis can be subdivided along the lines of The Namtaru Cult, The Order of the Void and those wishing to have no dealings with either two (Which I would like to call The Disciples of Belketh).
Sanctuary could be subdivided along the lines of the Lotus Empire, the Ice Naga of the North(I forget their name) and the introduction of the much desired Swamp-faction. Or alternatively, along the lines of the 3 Naga-subspecies, being Coral, Deep and Lake Naga.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 25, 2013 07:15 PM |
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War-overlord said:
I'm a history student, lore such as this and conflicts with real-life historical cultures are my Bread & Butter around this forum.(Or at least Crackers and Mustard)
Makes sense then
War-overlord said:
Sanctuary could be subdivided along the lines of the Lotus Empire, the Ice Naga of the North(I forget their name) and the introduction of the much desired Swamp-faction. Or alternatively, along the lines of the 3 Naga-subspecies, being Coral, Deep and Lake Naga.
I'm pretty sure a lot of ppl here would go with the swamp sub-faction 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 25, 2013 07:43 PM |
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Storm-Giant said:
War-overlord said:
Sanctuary could be subdivided along the lines of the Lotus Empire, the Ice Naga of the North(I forget their name) and the introduction of the much desired Swamp-faction. Or alternatively, along the lines of the 3 Naga-subspecies, being Coral, Deep and Lake Naga.
I'm pretty sure a lot of ppl here would go with the swamp sub-faction
Which is why I had included this as an option.
As much as I hate it, Lizardmen swamps are not going to happen unless there is either an enormous retcon or they pull a Heroes4 on the world. Two things I do not see happening very soon.
So having them be a subfaction of Sanctuary is probably going to be the next best thing. And they'd probably have reasonable chemistry with Lake Naga which are known to inhabit marshes and rivers.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted October 25, 2013 08:06 PM |
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My ideas for factions/subfactions
Hey! It's been quite a while since I've posted on the forum, but here are my 2 cents on the subject, which are an evolution of an older idea I've had (check the Search option on the forum)...
Generally speaking, I think we all agree that the HOMM world is too big and diverse (especially after DoC) to stick to the same old 6/7 creature formula. Each and every faction carries a rich history (both in-game world, and during the entire franchise) and there should be variants on each faction's specific theme. For example, the Necropolis is all about undead and humans who want to raise and/or become undead. Likewise, the Wizards are both about unlimited magical powers, the creation of constructs/beasts and an enivormental desert/snow (if we're speaking HOMM 3 Wizards) theme. I think each faction should have at least 2 alternate varians, optimally 3- and I don't care to have a lesser number of factions (5-6) at release because of that. I think the factions should be more general themes, that can also be used in MP/user-made maps and not just the world of Ashan. So, for Necropolis for example, no Void Cult but Flesh/Bone/Spectral variants instead (referring to my older suggestion). In the campaign, the Void Cult should be associated with the Spectral variant.
How the sub-factions will come to play? I say there should 4 four tiers- Base, Core, Elite and Champion. Your sub-faction choice will affect the upgrade choice for your Basic unit, allow you to upgrade one of your Core units (which are common to all variants) and decide which Elites and Champions you'll be able to recruit. In addition, they would decided your choice of Special Buildings in town, as each faction will encourage a slightly different playstyle.
Example, from the lovely Necropolis:
The "general" Necropolis can recruit the Zombie as a Base unit and the Wight (a disgusting, insect-spweing shooter), Skeleton (melee) and Ghost.
The Necropolis Spectral Path is all about increased debuffs and avoiding damage through Incorporeality. So, choosing this Path will allow you to upgrade your Zombies (Base unit) into Revenants, allow you to upgrade your Ghosts (Core unit) into Spectres and open up the Maiden of Sorrows/Banshee and Wraith / Soul Reaper. As said, in the campaign, they will be associated with the Order of the Void.
A different player choosing the Path of Flesh, which is all about outlasting your enemies and becoming stronger as the fight drags on will be able to get the Ghoul upgrade for Zombies, upgrade your Wights into Mummies (making them tanky-er) and open up the Vampire / Noseferatu and Dread Knight / Death Knight.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted October 26, 2013 02:56 AM |
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War-overlord said:
The only one I would have problems with is Inferno. JJ's criticism upon Gnomes is insofar valid that Swarm, Fire and Corruption have a very very limited basis in lore. On the other hand, his proposal for the 6 overlords is equally troublesome, since those overlords have little importance or influence on their once-followers after their defeat at the hands of the Demon Sovereign.
Hmmmm... maybe instead you have the "Sovereign" troops, who are more demons who solidly support the Demon Lords and who are more interested in conquest than destruction, the "Chaotic" demons who are just flat out bat **** bananas and want to destroy ERRYTHING and as such are just used as shock troops for the other demons/ don't rightly give a damn what the Sovereign says, and then finally you have the "Cultists", who are mortals like Realag and Kiril that either find themselves with demonic powers or who worship Urgash as their god and wish to break the prison of Sheogh?
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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Vindicator
Supreme Hero
Right Back Extraordinaire
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posted October 26, 2013 03:18 AM |
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Maybe for the demons there can be a subfaction on Ashan of early failed experiments by the Wizards? They surely didn't get the balance of demon blood in orcs right from the first time, the early experiments with too much demon blood could be a subfaction for Inferno, especially since there's still lots of interesting ideas for Orc units.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 26, 2013 06:27 AM |
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Nice on the dwarves War-overlord
@Vindicator: The thing is, all inferno creatures would have to spawn from Sheogh (assuming ashan vibe)...experiments with demon blood would still be stronghold...
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted October 26, 2013 04:09 PM |
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I was thinking about every town having 7 like in Heroes III and V.
Now, every faction has the 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th tiers unchangeable.
In base of the Subfaction, change the Hero Class and tiers 5, 6 and 7.
For every faction:
Haven:
Level 1easant->Conscript
Level 2:Javelinman->Skirmisher
Level 3:Monk->Priest
Level 4age->Squire(light cav)
-Griffin and Falcon Duchy(Hero Classuke)(Theme:Heroes V/VI Mix)
Level 5:Swordsman->Crusader
Level 6:Crossbowman->Marksman
Level 7:Griffin->Battle Griffin
-Stag and Unicorn Duchy(Hero Class:Knight)(Theme: Celtic/French Mix)
Level 5:Longbowman->Ranger
Level 6:Cavalier->Paladin(Lance)
Level 7:Angel->Archangel
-Wolf and Raven Duchy(Hero Class:Earl)(Theme: Viking/DoC wolf Mix)
Level 5:Spearman->Boundsman
Level 6:Captain->Justicar
Level 7:Catapult->Trebuchet
Necropolis:
Level 1:Neophyte->Acolyte
Level 2:Skeleton->Skeleton Warrior
Level 3:Corpse->Cadaver
Level 4:Apparition->Shadow
-Brotherhood of Soul(Hero Class Necromancer)(Theme: Spirit units, ghostly white/blue)
Level 5:Wight->Wraith(Heroes 3-like)
Level 6:Lich->Lich King
Level 7:Bone Dragon->Ghost Dragon
-Brotherhood of Plague(Hero Class Plaguedoctor)(Theme: Heroes VI Plague theme)
Level 5:Ghoul->Fell Ghoul
Level 6:?????(Else than Lamasu. I would like to see living ones in Academy)
Level 7:Weaver->Spinner
-Brotherhood of Blood(Hero Class Death Knight)(Theme:Blood Red and Black)
Level 5:Vampire Lord->Vampire Count(H5-like)
Level 6:Nospherat->Immortal(Dawnguard-like Lord)
Level 7:Black Knight->Dread Knight
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 26, 2013 05:19 PM |
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Lord_Immortal said:
Necropolis:
Level 1:Neophyte->Acolyte
Level 2:Skeleton->Skeleton Warrior
Level 3:Corpse->Cadaver
Level 4:Apparition->Shadow
-Brotherhood of Soul(Hero Class Necromancer)(Theme: Spirit units, ghostly white/blue)
Level 5:Wight->Wraith(Heroes 3-like)
Level 6:Lich->Lich King
Level 7:Bone Dragon->Ghost Dragon
-Brotherhood of Plague(Hero Class Plaguedoctor)(Theme: Heroes VI Plague theme)
Level 5:Ghoul->Fell Ghoul
Level 6:?????(Else than Lamasu. I would like to see living ones in Academy)
Level 7:Weaver->Spinner
-Brotherhood of Blood(Hero Class Death Knight)(Theme:Blood Red and Black)
Level 5:Vampire Lord->Vampire Count(H5-like)
Level 6:Nospherat->Immortal(Dawnguard-like Lord)
Level 7:Black Knight->Dread Knight
I agree with this, 3/5
Different creatures/upgrades for specific classes would make more sense than subfactions, at least for some alignments.
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2013 06:15 PM |
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My sub-faction ideas/themes
Here are my subfaction ideas/themes, for each of the HOMM 5/6 factions.
Haven: imperial army (military might), church of Light, vindicators (corrupt/ruthless humans)
Rampart/Sylvan: savage elves, high/regal elves, fey
Academy: magi and magical spirits, contrusts and their handlers, desert troops (nomad tribes and enslaved beasts)
Sanctuary- imperial Naga, water priests/spirits, creatures of the Deep
Fortress/Dwarves: clan army (military might), fire/construct-handler dwarves, ice/beast-handler dwarves
Stronghold: goblins (cunning), Orcs (and assorted beasties- might), savage beasts (beastmen and things like Behemoths- greatest might, but nearly uncontrollable)
Inferno: fire demons, corruption demons (more ability and deception-based), pain demons
Necropolis: spectral undead, fleshy undead, spectral undead
Dungeon: dark elves/creatures of darkness, draconic creatures, monsters (beholders, Minotaurs, chimerae etc.)
opinions?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 26, 2013 06:29 PM |
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moonshade said:
Necropolis: spectral undead, fleshy undead, spectral undead
Needs more spectral undead
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 26, 2013 09:07 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 21:31, 26 Oct 2013.
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How about normal necromancic, vampiric undead and frankensteinian undead? Not so sure about Academy either, to me it would make more sense to have animalistic (beast, beast-men, even animal spirits and animal golems), purely magical (golems and genies) and human (magically 'boosted' regular humans).
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moonshade
Known Hero
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posted October 26, 2013 10:09 PM |
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Ahh, sorry...
Oops, I meant Skeletal undead. BTW- another variant, copied from Warhammer are vampiric/hungry undead, mummified/skeletal undead and the 3rd will be the spectral/Void undead.
When initially starting on the town's screen (Day 1), you get to choose a subfaction. Each subfaction is "allied" or "opposed" to one of the others, respectively. For example, if we stick with Necropolis, the Path of Blood is allied to the Path of the Void and opposed to the Path of the Eternals. In the Core level, it can only upgrade its own related unit and the "opposed" faction's Core unit is totally blocked from being built in-town. However, they can recruit anothe Core unit instead. Also, you can build your Main and Minor's factions Elites (but only upgrade your Main's), and likewise just your Main faction's champion.
So here's a sample Path of Blood line-up:
Core: Zombie -> Ghoul, Ghost, Flesh Golem replaces Skeleton
Elite: Vampire -> Noseferat, Maiden of Sorrows
Champion: Dread Knight -> Death Knight
So, in general the Ghoul is a faster and more deadly Zombie, the Ghost provides some early-game mobility and the Flesh Golem is a tank. The Vampire is a skirmisher, while the Maiden is a flyer/caster. Finally, the Dread Knight is the physically toughest out of the 3 subfaction's Champions. Quite interestingly, his attacks deal higher damage the lower the enemy's morale gets- but as happens to be the case, the other subfactions have better abilities for doing that!
So, it's all about synergy between units and abilities, and encouraging you to play aggressive to capture as much towns as possible. Generally, one subfaction is more associated with flyers/mobility, another with tanking ability and the 3rd with ranged attacks/spells- but it's not always the case.
Another example the Haven's Mercenary Bands line-up:
Core: Crossbowman -> Marksman, Sentinel, Dire Wolf replaces Vestal
Elite: Zealot -> Inquisitor, Griffin
Champion: Vindicator -> Cuisinart
What do you think?
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Lord_Immortal
Famous Hero
DoR Dev Team
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posted October 27, 2013 08:53 PM |
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In continuance to yesterday:
Sylvan
Level 1: Pixie->Sprite
Level 2: Satyr->Faun
Level 3: Wisp->Will O'Wisp
Level 4: Bladedancer->Windslasher
Wood Elves Class Ranger
Level 5: Druid->Archdruid
Level 6: Pegasus Rider->Pegasus Knight
Level 7: Dendroid->Ancient Dendroid
High Elves Class Lightbearer
Level 5: Blazing Glory->Radiant Glory
Level 6: Unicorn->War Unicorn
Level 7: Silver Dragon->Gold Dragon
Sea Elves Class Captain
Level 5: Sea Elf Archer->Sea Elf Corsair
Level 6: Lake Na->Naga Kshatriya
Level 7: Sea Serpent->Leviathan
Inferno
Level 1: Imp->Familiar
Level 2: Horned Demon->Fire Demon
Level 3: Hellhound->Cerberus
Level 4: Succubus->Mistress
Legion of Fire:
Level 5: Gog->Magog
Level 6: Efreet->Efreet Sultan
Level 7: Pit Fiend->Pit Lord
Legion of Pain:
Level 5: Breeder->Mother Breeder
Level 6: Tormentor->Incubus
Level 7: Devil->Archdevil
Outer Legion:
Level 5: Frost Demon->Ice Devil(Ice)
Level 6: Nightmare->Shadowsteed(Shadow)
Level 7: Red Dragon->Great Red Dragon(Source: Bible& Paintings from William Blake)
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Raelag84
Famous Hero
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posted October 27, 2013 11:03 PM |
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Edited by Raelag84 at 23:03, 27 Oct 2013.
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Lord_Immortal said:
In continuance to yesterday:
Sylvan
Level 1: Pixie->Sprite
Level 2: Satyr->Faun
Level 3: Wisp->Will O'Wisp
Level 4: Bladedancer->Windslasher
Wood Elves Class Ranger
Level 5: Druid->Archdruid
Level 6: Pegasus Rider->Pegasus Knight
Level 7: Dendroid->Ancient Dendroid
High Elves Class Lightbearer
Level 5: Blazing Glory->Radiant Glory
Level 6: Unicorn->War Unicorn
Level 7: Silver Dragon->Gold Dragon
Sea Elves Class Captain
Level 5: Sea Elf Archer->Sea Elf Corsair
Level 6: Lake Na->Naga Kshatriya
Level 7: Sea Serpent->Leviathan
Inferno
Level 1: Imp->Familiar
Level 2: Horned Demon->Fire Demon
Level 3: Hellhound->Cerberus
Level 4: Succubus->Mistress
Legion of Fire:
Level 5: Gog->Magog
Level 6: Efreet->Efreet Sultan
Level 7: Pit Fiend->Pit Lord
Legion of Pain:
Level 5: Breeder->Mother Breeder
Level 6: Tormentor->Incubus
Level 7: Devil->Archdevil
Outer Legion:
Level 5: Frost Demon->Ice Devil(Ice)
Level 6: Nightmare->Shadowsteed(Shadow)
Level 7: Red Dragon->Great Red Dragon(Source: Bible& Paintings from William Blake)
Hey, this is really cool. Can you do Sanctuary and Dungeon next?
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 28, 2013 02:59 AM |
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Some interesting choices there. I'd put my own options up, but I don't think they'd really fit (an elf-populated romanesque angelic town f.e. or a viking-inspired human town).
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This thread is pages long: 
