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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 20, 2013 10:51 PM |
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Wolves and Wardogs, are fine. But Greyhounds are like almost anorexic. They are dangerous to rabbits, but nothing much bigger.
And I agree with Elvin that deer and Especially Unicorns would feel very wrong with Haven
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 20, 2013 10:56 PM |
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Not at all.
Would be a domesticized type and subtly inferior to the Sylvan Unicorn. Same thing as with Dragons. No problem whatsoever.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 20, 2013 10:59 PM |
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If they give Unicorns to Haven I burn Ubisoft headquarters. Srsly
I'd rather have just the "symbol" of each duchy on the shields, clothes of the cavalry, etc..
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Vexon
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 20, 2013 11:25 PM |
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What about Ponicorns?
But yeah, thinking up non-Human units for Haven is actually quite the task, Griffins and hounds are really the only things that make sense. I was really reaching when I suggested Oxen, but they fit much better than Unicorns or Stags. You might as well throw in Lions at that point.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 21, 2013 12:37 AM |
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We have griffins, screw the lions ^^
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Vexon
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 04:04 AM |
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Okay, moving on!
Necropolis
There are two things that have been made clear about the Necromancers in terms of relations to other factions. Number one: their line-up usually consists of various types of dead humans, and number two: they had some sort of falling out with the wizards over whether or not Necromancy was a fine way to spend an afternoon. But surely, the dark arts don't limit themselves to the deaths of humans?
Politically
There really shouldn't be anything especially controversial among Necromancers. They all gravitate towards the Spider Goddess, there's no real disagreement on which clan holds dominion over which land, aside from the usual lust for power and numbers. All bony fingers point towards the same horizon, really. So it's somewhat safe to say that Necromancers quite like Necromancers. Inner strife is reasonably absent.
However, in terms of clans, not all who practice Necromancy have to be fallen Knights or otherwise human weirdos. Has there never been a Dark Elf that tried to reanimate a dead Minotaur? No Gremlins have ever been dug up by some overly attached Wizard? Relative to the origin of a Hero's interest in Necromancy, there should be various clans within the biomes of other factions. Small pockets of cultists, hunted for their practices, rather than a massive biome of rotting forests and barren soil. Independent from each other, the clans of Necromancers would represent a sub-faction of sorts, where several staples of the Necropolis are added to by reanimated creatures of another faction.
Racial Skill: Pandemic
Let's face it, dead things aren't great companions for living things. Diseases spread quite easily, especially in a world without proper medicine. Sure, there is Light Magic, but nothing that really cures a plague. So aside from reanimating the corpses of fallen enemies, living stacks that join the Hero can over time be infected, diseased, and simply deceased to fuel undead stacks' numbers.
In addition, a Necromancer should be able to reanimate a defeated stack into an undead shell with lowered stats to fight on his side, with the ultimate level of mastery allowing the Hero to stay garrisoned in a captured town to infect and convert the town to a low-level Necropolis that matches the conquered sub-faction.
Biome
Imagine the map's biome slowly wilting, dying and rotting away. Elven forests losing its leaves and brown bark turning a dead black, grasslands turning barren and cracked, the sands of the Wizards' desert biome turning to dust that catches wind, snowy Dwarven biomes turning to ice. The Necromancers' biome should look like death, and as such should be the most radical change in overworld visuals. Roads can be bones for all I care.
Economy
Nothing quite fits the Necropolis like Mercury. It's deadly, it's alchemic, it's wonderful. Resource Silo to match, with a general preference to ore. It would be fantastic to see a Necropolis with a slightly Gothic look surrounded by dead trees, etc.
Military
So since the Haven thing went down a bit oddly and there's the whole clan-alternative thing to keep in mind, I'm going to be doing this a bit differently. Tier 5 remains, because I feel they are somewhat special in this scheme of things.
Staples
Skeletons, Zombies, Vampires and Death Knights
I don't think we need to expand on mythos or start radically altering things. Bone Dragons were always underwhelming, making up for it in numbers, but Necropolis could do better.
Additions
As a low-tier, I'd like to see Vultures, or flocks of Vultures if that applies better. Where else but among Zombies are they going to find such easy sustenance? Taming them should prove easy enough, there's plenty of food on a battlefield after all. In terms of a higher tier, Mummies should return.
Alternatives
Haven: Cultists from Clerics and Husks from Swordsmen (Basically haunted suits of armor)
Inferno: Corrupted versions of Succubi and Hell Hounds
Academy: Liches from Mages and Undead Gremlins
Sylvan: Werewolves from White Wolves and Witches from Druids
Dungeon: Bone Dragons and Undead Beholders
Stronghold: Undead Ogres and Witchdoctors from Shamans
Fortress: Undead Bears and Toxicians from Alchemists
Tier 5
Reapers, of course. Wraiths in V were beautifully designed, and much more imposing than the dead dragons and VI's creatures. Rerouting lifeforce from enemies to allies in an AoE around itself at the beginning of every turn, for instance, would be enough to push Reapers to God-Tier.
End Necropolis
This could make things quite complex, but I personally love the idea of the faction not having a set foothold and feeding off the other factions. The whole idea I had for this set up all came from an observation I had on biomes, so obviously things all grew from that little paragraph.
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Gnomes2169
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Duke of the Glade
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posted October 21, 2013 07:11 AM |
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War-overlord said:
And I agree with Elvin that deer and Especially Unicorns would feel very wrong with Haven
This... So much this. Humans and unicorns have been in a total of 0 factions together for a reason. >.> Griffins are a staple of the Haven empire, and since it's been hinted that the Griffin household is the strongest one this makes sense. Unicorns, on the other hand, have always been the allies of the elves... and if sylvan appeared, it would be awkward no matter what to have two unicorns or to have them fighting sylvan flat out.
However, things such as war hounds and the like can easily replace some of the units in the core without much of a problem. Get some more wolves and the like in there :3
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Yeah in the 18th century, two inventions suggested a method of measurement. One won and the other stayed in America.
-Ghost destroying Fred
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 21, 2013 08:23 AM |
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There really should only be one animal in Haven lineup and that's the Griffin....it's good to keep the history of the faction throughout the heroes games intact. That's why wasn't too fond of the Glory coming into Haven, just didn't seem to fit (although loved the creature).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 08:39 AM |
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Gnomes2169 said:
War-overlord said:
And I agree with Elvin that deer and Especially Unicorns would feel very wrong with Haven
This... So much this. Humans and unicorns have been in a total of 0 factions together for a reason. >.> Griffins are a staple of the Haven empire, and since it's been hinted that the Griffin household is the strongest one this makes sense. Unicorns, on the other hand, have always been the allies of the elves... and if sylvan appeared, it would be awkward no matter what to have two unicorns or to have them fighting sylvan flat out.
However, things such as war hounds and the like can easily replace some of the units in the core without much of a problem. Get some more wolves and the like in there :3
Totally disagree. We have had different Dragons as well, so why not different Unicorns?
Even complete switches are not wrong and have often been done. Griffins, for example, were in
Dungeon in HoMM 1 and 2
Castle/Haven in HoMM 3, 5 and 6
Nature/Preserve/Sylvans in HoMM 4
Unicorns would be awesome in a human faction, giving it something very classy.
I would also like to see the Pegasus again, either with Humans or with Sylvans.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 10:05 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 10:42, 21 Oct 2013.
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The term 'unicorn' need not refer to the actual beast, I could easily see it being used to describe a lancer using a longer-than-normal lance with the aid of some sort of spear-holder attached to the horse's neck armour. Don't know what abilities would make it unique though. Or course if they want to put unicorns in Haven, I see nothing wrong with that either, given how often during the period the unicorn was associated not just with the good, but with Jesus himself.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 21, 2013 10:38 AM |
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MattII said:
The term 'unicorn' need not refer to the actual beast, I could easily see it being used to describe a lancer using a longer-than-normal lance with the aid of some sort of spear-holder attached to the horse's neck armour. Don't know what abilities would make it unique though.
`
1: That's a rather odd place to attach a lance.
2: If it's a Lancer, there's no reason to call it a Unicorn instead of a Lancer.
As far as other creatures/animals I could easily accept in Haven, other than Griffins and Warhounds/Wolves. Here's a list, off the top of my head and or with a little research into heraldry:
Pegasi, Hippogryphs, Demigryphs, Winged Lions of St Mark/Venice, Alphyns & Hippalectryons.
With a little research, you can come up with a lot of things.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 11:03 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:10, 21 Oct 2013.
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War-overlord said:
MattII said:
The term 'unicorn' need not refer to the actual beast, I could easily see it being used to describe a lancer using a longer-than-normal lance with the aid of some sort of spear-holder attached to the horse's neck armour. Don't know what abilities would make it unique though.
`
1: That's a rather odd place to attach a lance.
2: If it's a Lancer, there's no reason to call it a Unicorn instead of a Lancer.
1. It isn't attached there, the lance-rest is.
2. There's no reason not to either. It's like calling your soldier immortals.
Quote:
With a little research, you can come up with a lot of things.
Mm, fair enough, but research on its own isn't enough, you also need to be innovative, and you don't do that by saying "oh no, this creature has to go in that faction, and that one in that one". Spice things up a little, make changes, don't treat everything as holy writ. For example, the Haven has always had very western-European styled, but there's no reason it has to be, it could do equally well with some eastern-European styling, or classical Roman for that matter. Likewise, the Necropolis has always been evil more-or-less, but that doesn't mean that it must be, maybe the necromancer is so because he doesn't want his (living) people to die, and so raises undead to do the most dangerous jobs.
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DoubleDeck
Promising
Legendary Hero
Look into my eyes...
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posted October 21, 2013 11:11 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Totally disagree. We have had different Dragons as well, so why not different Unicorns?
Unicorns would be awesome in a human faction, giving it something very classy.
I would also like to see the Pegasus again, either with Humans or with Sylvans.
Different dragons were even a little too much in H5 lineup...but dragons can be linked to the elemental ones too. Unicorns are pretty unique I would say.
I hear you saying they could add something classy to Haven, but I still think of a Unicorn as a legendary, woodland creature, thus belonging to the forest and the elves.....
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 11:17 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 12:14, 21 Oct 2013.
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This is a nice thread, I liked the discussions so far. I've been thinking about some of these things myself for the past few years so I'm glad to see people having similar ideas to mine.
Just from the beginning I would like to say that I'm mainly interested in gameplay and mechanics. I have 0 lore knowledge, no clue whatsoever about Heroes mythos and such. The only thing I know for sure is that eclipses take place from time to time and demons rush out from Sheogh when that happens..
BUT.. I'm very intense when it comes to gameplay, mechanics, tactics, etc. Always looking to improve my skills and polish my strategies both in-battle and map-wise. So, keeping that in mind I would like to comment a bit on some ideas:
1. The first thing that caught my attention while reading these posts was the idea of subfactions. It would be a tremendous improvement in all respects. More creatures, more variety, more tactics, a much more interesting and diversified gameplay, 100% win. 
2. The idea of having a choise when it comes to your lineup sounds very good to me, and goes well with the subfaction idea too. If possible, a system like the ones in H4 or at least H5 (only different upgrades) would be really nice. Players should have the options to choose their army lineup depending on what they're after.. a rush game, a early/mid/late game, might or magic, a strategy they developed, creature abilities or stats, etc. I could develop this idea into something more precise, if required.
3. This is an idea that I came up with recently. I would like to see some sort of micro-talent system for each creature. Not something big and complicated. 1 out of 3 talents would do, something to give an edge in combat, an ability/spell/stats or improving one. I've been advocating for this idea on the MMHO blog. I'll give an excerpt from that conversation:
Quote:
Rene I must ask you 1 very important question: Are the devs planning to let the players customise their creatures in the sense of achieving new attributes/skills/specials for them?
Think about this - all players get the same creatures and the same upgrades and that's fine, but why not let them improve their own troops in their own way? I know that hero skills/attributes/artifacts influence them but that's a given anyway and in the end it's really not what I'm asking about.
For example, say I have a Vampire Lord - It would be totally cool if I could complete some quests or kill some very rare monsters or achieve a feat to get one bonus ability ( double strike, unlimited retaliation, spellsteal or whatnot) or special (like a one-time spell or a temporary/permanent bonus in combat, but they already have "Out of time" in H6 - which is awesome btw) or improve one that I probably already have (for example improving lifesteal).
One thing that made me really enjoy WoG was precisely this. Now think about it, letting the player choose in which way he develops his creatures, individually, would both make PvE more enjoyable (since they'll look to improve the quality of their creatures, not the quantity - quantity ruins the game if you'd ask me) and would give such variability to the PvP strategy. Total increase in the gameplay value!
... continuing with this reply ...
Quote:
However I must point out that winning 10/10 when facing 100 vampires with 100 upgraded vampires is the natural outcome, and in no way unfair. The player with better troops must have an advantage, otherwise his work for achieving new attributes/abilities/specials/spells would have been in vain.
I'm just tired of focusing on creature growth in numbers while quality remains the same. If you'd give the player control over the quality of his troops then you'd really see some interesting battles. Plus, questing for it would make players focus on PvE also. You hit two birds with one stone. Of course balancing this will be difficult, and wise minds are required, but I'm sure the devs are capable of it.
When I was thinking about this my mind went to the WoW talent system, but not in the kilometric sense with tons of abilities, but in the branch-like sense -> you can only pursue one branch untill the end. In fact the hero skill system from H5 was somewhat the same. Having this implemented to creatures would greatly increase gameplay variability and would avoid repetability, since players could choose what path they take instead of having only a single one.
Of course, tinkering with such an idea till it gets balanced and all it's quite the task. Nevertheless, I still hold on to my point: I want to improve the quality of my creatures rather than focus exclusively on quantity.
4. Unique racials for every factions and 'subracials' for every subfaction. There have been good ideas about this, like the orcs "ancients' pool". This is a good way to keep all subfaction connected to an alignment while giving them different subracials. Unity in diversity, or something like that.
5. I think Vexon's onto something when he talks about "Alternatives" in Necropolis post. I'm not sure if he intended to say this, but I think that being able to make undead servants out of living creatures from other factions through Necromancery is quite something. You don't need to add subfactions to Necro, as it is already a subfaction of Academy (sort of, I hope I'm right, again, no clue about story). You could however get alot of different creatures from the other factions serving as undead. I think this is a nice idea with alot of potential!
6. Someone talked about a more rugged style for creatures. I say a more rugged style for the entire game. Creatures, enviroment, towns, spells, etc. But then again, this is not a core problem, and I don't think this should be a priority above gameplay and mechanics. Still, a good idea.
7. I don't really get all the fuss about Haven having human creatures, or fortress having dwarves or sylvan having plants. Maybe some of you find this of great importance, but I really think it's a side issue. 
One last thing, regarding stag duchy's representative creature. I think this would serve as a nice model:
http://st.gdefon.com/wallpapers_original/wallpapers/423036_art_olen_maral_roga_les_noch_temno_derevya_xolm_lu_1680x1050_(www.GdeFon.ru).jpg
The difference between this and the sylvan unicorn would be that the unicorn is a "pure creature" while the stag isn't. I think it's enough of a difference to keep sylvan creatures not mixing with haven creatures.
I hope this is useful, some thoughts please  Thank you.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 11:17 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 11:18, 21 Oct 2013.
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DoubleDeck said:
I hear you saying they could add something classy to Haven, but I still think of a Unicorn as a legendary, woodland creature, thus belonging to the forest and the elves.....
And for centuries in some places fairies were downright nasty, not much better than demons, so depending on which version of elves you want to take, they're not much a better fit there either.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 21, 2013 11:36 AM |
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Vexon said:
Politically
There really shouldn't be anything especially controversial among Necromancers. They all gravitate towards the Spider Goddess, there's no real disagreement on which clan holds dominion over which land, aside from the usual lust for power and numbers. All bony fingers point towards the same horizon, really. So it's somewhat safe to say that Necromancers quite like Necromancers. Inner strife is reasonably absent.
Necropolis is hardly unified. Perhaps you remember the first mission of Arantir campaign, where Giovanni tried to overthrow Arantir. Then there's the enmity between Belketh and Anastasya, the cult of the void that defies Asha...
As for the lineup. I did very much like to see an undead cyclops in dark messiah but I would certainly not like to see one in heroes. Why make undead versions of units that already exist in the original factions? If anything I would like to see a unit like the monster of Frankenstein, sewn together from parts of various creatures. Or even a skeletal construct that could look unlike any creature we have seen.
____________
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 21, 2013 12:10 PM |
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MattII said:
Mm, fair enough, but research on its own isn't enough, you also need to be innovative, and you don't do that by saying "oh no, this creature has to go in that faction, and that one in that one". Spice things up a little, make changes, don't treat everything as holy writ.
Here's the thing. One needs to take into account that there are some creatures which have become such staples of certain factions that the fans have grown attached to them. So much so, in fact, that those creatures become part of said factions identity. This is most likely to occur with creatures that have been part of a single faction since the beginning. Minotaurs and Dragons for Dungeon; Unicorns and Elf Archers for Sylvan/Rampart; I could continue the list for a while, if I wanted to. And because of this indentification, many are very much opposed to change in that. However irrational it might be. And withouta degree of continuity, recognition is lost.
And in very many ways this can be incredibly restricting, I know that well enough. Series need a degree of innovation and new things to stay fresh.
But there is a simple way to please both sides of the discussion, with the retaining of Iconic Staples on the one hand and Innovation on the other. And that is to loosen the 7 creature maximum.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted October 21, 2013 01:13 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
Gnomes2169 said:
War-overlord said:
And I agree with Elvin that deer and Especially Unicorns would feel very wrong with Haven
This... So much this. Humans and unicorns have been in a total of 0 factions together for a reason. >.> Griffins are a staple of the Haven empire, and since it's been hinted that the Griffin household is the strongest one this makes sense. Unicorns, on the other hand, have always been the allies of the elves... and if sylvan appeared, it would be awkward no matter what to have two unicorns or to have them fighting sylvan flat out.
However, things such as war hounds and the like can easily replace some of the units in the core without much of a problem. Get some more wolves and the like in there :3
Totally disagree. We have had different Dragons as well, so why not different Unicorns?
Sorry, but no. Because it sounds stupid.
Many creatures in HoM&M history have been always unique - you don't find two different Titans, Vampires, Unicorns, Griffins, Cyclops or Minotaurs on a HoM&M game. Heck, aside from artistic differences, not even between the games of the series...
Dragons, on the other hand, we always saw different versions of them. Be by different colors (Green/Blue/Red/Black/Gold) or by different types (Fire Dragons of Fortress in H5, or the undead dragons). But Dragons has been always a special creature in this regard, you can't compare them with Unicorns...
Last but not least, Ashan Gods are Dragons, not Unicorns.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted October 21, 2013 01:29 PM |
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However, the character of what makes a faction has changed. Whyt's now the Sylvans or the Elves, has formerly been the FOREST-AND-FAIRY-faction with Sprites and Elves and Dwarves and Druids and Unicorns and Phoenixes.
The Sylvans are a POLITICAL entity, though, and not a mix of fairy tale "cute" creatures anymore - they are NOT "good" in that sense.
With that character gone, I don't see any reason NOT to have a creature like the Unicorn as part of a sub-faction of humans. We don't know much about the Unicorn Duchy, but you COULD make a mytical move of the Unicorns from parts of Irollan into the Duchy part of the story - with the ascendancy of charismatic princess X to the throne of the Unicorn-Duchy and old prophecy fulfills that heralded the coming of their heraldic animal, when a true leader would arise, yadayadayada.
No problem.
On the plus side it would make room for new creatures with the Sylvans.
Because, you see, I HATE change just for change's sake. I mean, if you compare faction line-ups of HoMM 6 and HoMM 5, the question that asks itself is: How COME that certain units simply DISAPPEARED between HoMM 6 and HoMM 5? What happened with the Lacerators and Juggernauts - and where the hell came the Devils from that took Champion rank from the Pit Lords? What happened with the Manticores? And what made the Minotaurs become weakfish slaves?
You know what I mean - that's the kind of problem that comes with a world that is supposed to have lots of lore and to be consistent.
You COULD do it then - can't do it now just so.
So the bottom line is this: in Ashan you'd have to be able to present a STORY anyway, how it happened that a creature switched or disappeared, but if you CAN come up with a story that DOES explain things, you also CAN switch or change iconic stuff.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted October 21, 2013 01:45 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
However, the character of what makes a faction has changed. Whyt's now the Sylvans or the Elves, has formerly been the FOREST-AND-FAIRY-faction with Sprites and Elves and Dwarves and Druids and Unicorns and Phoenixes.
The Sylvans are a POLITICAL entity, though, and not a mix of fairy tale "cute" creatures anymore - they are NOT "good" in that sense.
As much as what you say is entirely true, there is one gaping flaw in this argument. Unicorns are intrinsically linked to political entity that is Irollan. And also, barring Pristine Unicorns, as sacred beings to Sylanna. As evident in their, not retconned, descriptions.
Quote:
The Unicorns are spirits of nature, and as such they are sacred to the Elves. They are considered as a totem animal for the whole of Irollan, and it is said that when the last Unicorn will die so will the Elven kingdom and all its people.
Quote:
Unlike the other Unicorns, they (Pristine Unicorns) are not sacred to Sylanna
Therefor we have to conclude that Unicorns are still very much part of Sylvan's identity.
The only Unicorns that are not, which may be succesfully argued, are the Pristine Unicorns, which are sacred to Elrath. They could be succesfully integrated into an entity such as Haven. But unless they are Damned Different to Sylvan Unicorns, there will be a lot of Fan Rage.
On a different note, I wholly agree that the major discrepancies between Heroes5 & 6 need to be explained and explained well.
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This thread is pages long: 
