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| Thread: Islamisation of Europe? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · NEXT» |
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xerox
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posted December 20, 2013 12:32 AM |
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Edited by xerox at 00:33, 20 Dec 2013.
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Islamisation of Europe?
Nationalists and even some liberals talk a lot about unconditional muslim immigration being problematic because it leads to "islamisation". It is claimed that this supposed process leads to a devaluation of core European values, such as secularism and gender equality. The most extreme tend to argue that in X years time, muslims will be a majority in Europe and establish sharia.
What does islamisation mean to you?
Do you believe Europe is getting islamised?
Why / why not?
If yes, what's your opinion on it?
Is it good, bad or are you indifferent?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
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- John Stuart Mill
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 20, 2013 12:57 AM |
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What does islamisation mean to you?
The spread of secular Islam culture within a state through breeding or further immigration. Comparable to a cancer due to its secular nature and somewhat detached from the "whole" that can block off key access points and can bring an end to a state just by being what it is, rightly feared by nationalists, though quite misguided in their attempts to bring an end to it.
Do you believe Europe is getting islamised?
Yes.
Why / why not?
It is quite obvious imho.
If yes, what's your opinion on it?
Is it good, bad or are you indifferent? (kinda the same question)
As a nationalist socialist meritocrat I don't consider this as a good thing at all, but only when I have my society in my mind and I was presented with this "problem" (though I don't see how it would come about seeing the nature of my regime) where allegiance to the state and the overarching purpose of the state as dictated by a monarch/dictator is paramount. Ergo, the existence of a secular culture that owes allegiance to a foreign entity wouldn't be viable, and many of them would not pass something like the oath of allegiance, comparable to when King Henry VIII enacted the law "supremacy of the crown" that required people to serve the king before god.(god as in the will of the pope since he apparently interprets the will of god or some nonsense like that) Anyway, the point is the process of citizenship would be thus that would require all people to place the needs of the nation before personal wants/beliefs, so any Muslim that takes such an oath would be part of the whole thereby neutralizing "islamisation".
If I do not have my society in mind then I do not mind 'Islamisation' at all.
I'll make crucial edits and elaborations later.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted December 20, 2013 02:09 AM |
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Edited by artu at 02:11, 20 Dec 2013.
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The biggest problem of Islam itself (at least as of now) is incompatibility with secularity, so I don't exactly understand what is meant by "spread of secular Islam culture." If it's meant as Islamic law or tradition replacing and modifying daily life, yes, that would be a problem. But since in Europe Muslims are like 5 6 percent tops in most places, I dont see that happeng anytime unless we are talking about distant future, which would be just far fetched speculation.
As someone who lives in a country with muslim majority and secular law since 1937 (relatively new considering the age of secular tradition in Europe dating back to even before French Revolution), sharia law taking over seems like fantasy to me. We worry about and struggle with the politics of conservative Muslims who are in full power all the time and even we dont worry about Sharia law coming back (put aside a few paranoid nationalists).
And Xerox, why do you keep creating various threads about this when there already is one? Secondary threads like this get buried and lost very quickly and then they are usually deleted. Why not stick to the existing one?
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Salamandre
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Wog refugee
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posted December 20, 2013 06:39 AM |
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It doesn't bother me to see foreign faces and hear foreign languages.
It bothers me to see people who don't respect the country feeding them.
It bothers me to see people who do not make any slight effort to learn the new language and honor their hosts.
Those people for the most come from places where if you don't think as them, you face criminal charges and can even be executed.
Changing coordinates will not change their way of thinking or living.
Our European ancestors worked and sacrificed to give us best living conditions and prepare our future.
Our culture which is deeply scorned by Islam.
The most realistic remembrance I have about is one famous photo, where someone holds a flag, on which is written: "Behead all those who say Islam is violent."
Nuf' said.
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NoobX
Undefeatable Hero
Now, this is a paradox...
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posted December 20, 2013 08:14 AM |
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What does islamisation mean to you?
Since I'm an atheist, I don't believe niether in God nor Allah, so everything islamisaton does in my eyes is making people believe in nothing and then fight the other people that believe in a different nothing. Sure, I can live with a Muslim in my neighborhood, but he better not even try to talk to me about accepting Islam as my religion.
Do you believe Europe is getting islamised?
Huh? No.
Well, to tell you the truth, I never even thought about it, but I live in a country filled with lunatic Christians who wouldn't even spare Muslim kids if it wasn't for America and other countries who fight for equality of all people no matter of which religion, skin colour or language and that would terminate us if Serbs started the slaughter.
I believe that even if Europe starts getting islamised, it would be the Balcanic people that will either die or prevent islamisation.
Why / why not?
Muslims don't have enough power atm. They were once a great force capable of taking over the world, but now all they do is fight amongst themselves and against America.
Is it good, bad or are you indifferent?
It cannot be good for an atheist like me.
Bad? Could be to a certain degree, but since I don't buy any of the religious BS, I'm mostly indifferent.
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Tsar-Ivor
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posted December 20, 2013 10:24 AM |
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artu said:
The biggest problem of Islam itself (at least as of now) is incompatibility with secularity, so I don't exactly understand what is meant by "spread of secular Islam culture." If it's meant as Islamic law or tradition replacing and modifying daily life, yes, that would be a problem. But since in Europe Muslims are like 5 6 percent tops in most places, I dont see that happeng anytime unless we are talking about distant future, which would be just far fetched speculation.
I meant that they'd be incompatible since their loyalty to Islam supersedes loyalty a nation or her sovereign, I also meant that the lack of integration into the nation's culture (not just knowing the nation's culture but embodying it) means that Muslims are a separate entity within a state. (This applies for all such "factions" not just Muslims and it doesn't apply to all within them)
But this isn't bad in a """free""" society, but it would be a problem in a society with some Communist values.
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"No laughs were had. There is only shame and sadness." Jenny
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Doomforge
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posted December 20, 2013 04:35 PM |
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I can't see any Muslims coming to Poorland. oh wait, nobody wants to come here in the first place 
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 05:01 PM |
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A short summary of my position on this issue:
- Islam is incorrect (as are all religions) and harmful to its practitioners, both because it discourages rational thought and because it encourages bad social norms.
- Political Islam is even worse, just like political Christianity.
- We don't restrict births based on disproportional likelihood to have bad political beliefs, or likelihood to collect welfare, so it's inconsistent to restrict immigration for those reasons.
- The welfare state discourages self-reliance, especially when offered to poor immigrants.
- Immigrants should be allowed in freely, but not allowed to vote or collect from the welfare state. It's better than not letting them in at all, and it cuts down on their negative externalities.Salamandre said:
The most realistic remembrance I have about is one famous photo, where someone holds a flag, on which is written: "Behead all those who say Islam is violent."
You know that was fake, right? The original poster said "Behead those who insult Islam" - which is still terrible, but at least it's not self-contradictory.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 20, 2013 05:22 PM |
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Let's pick some extremes here. Your Iranian immigrant family that moved because of the revolution, highly educated, experts in their field. Moving to work in an university and thus integrating into the community.
Refugees from Eastern Africa, young, uneducated males. Moving to an already existing strict community exercising its own laws inside the state. Don't have jobs, don't speak the language, no marketable skills.
Wanna quess why the latter are all over the news and the former ones not? I'll give you a clue, gang rapes. Oh yes, I just went there.
Then again, I'm highly critical of all kinds of international influence on countries and their culture. I don't approve of muslimisation of Europe, anymore than I approve of christening Asia-Minor. People should go and travel, visit places, keep their own lives separate from others. If they want to spread freedom or democracy or whatever, spread them to those who want it, they will come asking for it, when they're ready.
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 05:41 PM |
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So when women in Saudi Arabia aren't being allowed to drive, that's fine because "it's their culture"?
Culture isn't sacred. The best parts of cultures should win and replace parts of other cultures.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 20, 2013 05:46 PM |
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 05:49 PM |
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Agree to disagree? Innocent children are born and immediately indoctrinated into Islam and a backwards culture that teaches them that women are inferior and that everyone must submit to Allah. Women can't go outside by themselves while not covered from head to toe. They're misinformed about reality (taught creationism rather than evolution, etc). And you think that's okay, that's their culture?
It's evil, and tolerating it is tolerating evil.
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Eccentric Opinion
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kipshasz
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posted December 20, 2013 05:50 PM |
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Doomforge said:
I can't see any Muslims coming to Poorland. oh wait, nobody wants to come here in the first place
Don't you have some tatars living in pooland?
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 20, 2013 05:57 PM |
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I'm not saying it's fine. What I'm saying if that's their choice it's not our business to go over there and force our values on them.
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 06:33 PM |
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Not literally force, no. I'm not suggesting that the countries of the West should send their militaries to Saudi Arabia. But to criticize those values, discourage them, and properly identify them as worse values - that definitely is our place.
Also, a lot of it isn't their choice - they're forced to do it, either by the law or by the threat of private violence.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 20, 2013 06:36 PM |
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...which are both executed by the population of the country.
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 06:43 PM |
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By that logic, Holocausting German Jews was okay because it was done by the population of the country, and murder is okay as long as it's native-on-native.
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JoonasTo
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What if Elvin was female?
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posted December 20, 2013 06:47 PM |
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Short answer, yes.
Long answer, want to pick real examples that actually work?
Murder is illegal in all countries, how is that accepted by the population then?
I'm pretty sure murder and genocide were illegal in Germany during WW2 too...
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mvassilev
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posted December 20, 2013 06:59 PM |
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Murder can illegal but tolerated. Why restrict your analysis to the national level? Consider the Mafia, for instance. A mafiosi might kill someone and the other mafiosi think nothing of it. Is that okay? As for the Holocaust, it was certainly legal - immoral, but legal. According to you, lynch mobs are also okay - there are more people in one than there are victims.
What's moral isn't up to the majority to decide.
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xerox
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posted December 20, 2013 09:27 PM |
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Edited by xerox at 21:30, 20 Dec 2013.
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Tsar: If allegiance to the nation state is what's most important, does that mean other people who do not primarily feel obliged to the state, such as Christian placing God over the state, are a problem too?
mvassilev said:
Immigrants should be allowed in freely, but not allowed to vote or collect from the welfare state. It's better than not letting them in at all, and it cuts down on their negative externalities.
Why should not immigrants be able to vote for a legislature that affects their lives daily?
Joonas: Do you think it is a problem if people choose to live by foreign values and culture?
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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