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| Thread: Islamisation of Europe? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 · «PREV |
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seraphim
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posted February 20, 2014 01:02 AM |
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baklava, I know some censuses were made in the 20th century, painted the holy serb Orthodox quasi messianic holy lands with a majority in Serbs. But let's not assume that Serbia did not do a lot of deporting,cleansing in the past as well. People were forced to declare themselves as "turks" and were promptly deported to Turkey.
Sadly, no censuses were made, just people who are still alive in Turkey from those times,who were deported.
On the other points, you were right. But then, ihope somebody doenst take Yugoslavia as a good example.
War is inevitable in the Balkans.
Its just sad though .
As for Kosovo issue.
Maybe Serbs should breed more, its a long way back to 99%.
I never understood how a bunch of churches, or mosques makesva land valuable. Must be the force of indoctrination.
The faster the EU dies, the better it is. I don't believe that another world war would be needed to teach Europeans once more how it is to feel dead again, or teach the opposition how warm nuclear fire is.
As pessimistic I am, I fully expect a massive war sometime in the future.
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Baklava
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posted February 20, 2014 03:37 AM |
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Edited by Baklava at 05:01, 20 Feb 2014.
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Alright.
Let's wind the clock back to the beginning, and start from there. Ottoman and Austrian authorities and their sources have hardly been known as fans of Orthodox Christianity or Serbs in general. The majority of Albanians declaring themselves Muslim with the arrival of the Ottomans - and the Serbs remaining Christian - appears to have influenced the Christian to Muslim (or Serbian to Albanian) ratio drastically over time.
Pay attention to the figures during early Ottoman occupation, around the 15th century, as well as the turmoil in the world wars, during the fascist puppet state of Greater Albania and similar. Then look at the rapid decline of Serbian population during what is purported to be the Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians in the '90s. Including, afterwards, what has been referred to as "righteous wrath" of Albanian mobs exacting coordinated "vengeance" in pogroms on non-Albanians, openly ignored by international peacekeeping forces and Small Guantanamo, the Kosovo-based largest US military base in Europe.
The supposed peacekeepers wouldn't risk their resources intervening or properly informing the public on the events, because it wouldn't go well with the Serbian genocide story that the US Congress has been lobbied into buying, as well as openly supporting the terrorist group known as the Kosovo Liberation Army (whose members now rule the liberated Kosovo, and whose involvement in crime ranging from drug to weapon to organ smuggling has been proven time and time again).
No one likes to believe that indoctrination happened on their side. And, no matter what you may believe, I'm far from having anything against the Albanian people as such. I'm not talking Albanians here. I'm talking criminals. From both sides, as I despise Milosevic's regime as much as you do.
While Milosevic danced to the international tune, he was proclaimed a factor of peace and stability throughout the western media. As soon as he stopped being an obedient dictator and turned into a rabid one, they put him down, and installed puppet regimes where it suited them, led by other dictators, such as Franjo Tudjman in Croatia (whose cabinet orchestrated several war crimes against Serbs and Bosnian Muslims) and Alija Izet-Begovic in Bosnia (replace Bosnian Muslims with Croats). The US got out as liberators, with a brand new base in a loyal Kosovo. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I could take my time to connect the Kosovo drug mafia supplying up to 40% of the heroin sold in Europe and North America at the turn of the century, with the US army's prior involvement in the trafficking of copious amounts of heroin from Afghanistan. But I'm not even going to do that.
At any rate, looking at your situation now (Jesus, even Serbian living standards are stellar when compared to Kosovo), and the only notable economic factor over there still being crime, with hardly anything that would indicate any kind of change in the future... Well, I wonder what's going to happen now that your warlords are running out of Serbs to blame.
This is all mostly off topic, though, so let's not dwell on this more than we have to. Still, like I said, some important parallels can be made with the main discussion - including the rant against western military action and its involvement in many Muslim-populated countries.
Lastly, the claim of large numbers of Albanians forced to declare as Turkish and be deported during the wars of independence from the Ottomans, and the impact thereof on the ethnic/religious demographics in the Balkans, is a pretty heavy one. I'm not denying it happened, mind you - but it might need some backing up if you aimed to show that it was (and to what extent) a serious factor in demographics, and not simply that Serbs are evil.
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seraphim
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posted February 22, 2014 09:47 AM |
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The ottomans never did a population count by ethnicity, but by religion.
Even then, most the time numbers varried massively from majority to minority Muslim. By the 20th century, Kosovo, might have had a large Serbian pop, but so did some lands in the north have "turks" and Albanians. By the 90s, things got dirty. Can't be bothered to fight on a propaganda fight. NATO is the evil guy for Serbs. For us its Russia.
However, Kosovo Albanian population increased by breeding and vaccines, not by imaginary immigrants entering from communist Albania.
that said, I share no need to further this discussion. Anybody can read on this issue if they want, there are both pro-serbian and pro-albanian sites out there.
The kla targeted civ officers. The were no heroes but hey, the Serbs reacted by purging villages. Nobody was innocent. If it was 2013, the world would have reacted like it does now to Syria.
That said, there will be war again ib this piece of land. Radicals guarantee it. I don't think any EU country is in danger of what happened in Kosovo. Kosovo history is marked by the occasional cleansing,persecution, and other magical things. Some say its Europe's Jerusalem.
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seraphim
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posted February 22, 2014 10:29 AM |
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Ok, I am gonna make this short
Baklava said:
Alright.
Let's wind the clock back to the beginning, and start from there. Ottoman and Austrian authorities and their sources have hardly been known as fans of Orthodox Christianity or Serbs in general. The majority of Albanians declaring themselves Muslim with the arrival of the Ottomans - and the Serbs remaining Christian - appears to have influenced the Christian to Muslim (or Serbian to Albanian) ratio drastically over time.
Here is a biased pro serb link to Kosovo:
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/bookstore/kosovo/kosovo3.htm
There you can read all about how albanians were not so much into islam for the relgion and more into evading the jizja tax and favors be the ottomans.
In this link: http://www.bosniafacts.info/early-history/40-conversion-to-islam-in-the-balkans
Non biased inmo, you can read how Kosovo was always around 70% muslim.
The OTTOMANS never did an ethnic check, only religious check.
If you dont believe the ottomans, I can say the same for the yugoslavs and lets throw all censuses away.
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Pay attention to the figures during early Ottoman occupation, around the 15th century, as well as the turmoil in the world wars, during the fascist puppet state of Greater Albania and similar. Then look at the rapid decline of Serbian population during what is purported to be the Serbian ethnic cleansing of Albanians in the '90s. Including, afterwards, what has been referred to as "righteous wrath" of Albanian mobs exacting coordinated "vengeance" in pogroms on non-Albanians, openly ignored by international peacekeeping forces and Small Guantanamo, the Kosovo-based largest US military base in Europe.
As for the evils of NATO and Uncle Sam. Well, I can throw the same thing against Serbian Army attorcities in bosnia.
In Kosovo, the KLA, while targetting officers, yes terrorists, caused serbian military forces to overreact and purge villages in Central kosovo and other villages.
It was dirty but hey, that provoked the response from the NATO. Bondsteel is now is nothing more than an empty base.
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The supposed peacekeepers wouldn't risk their resources intervening or properly informing the public on the events, because it wouldn't go well with the Serbian genocide story that the US Congress has been lobbied into buying, as well as openly supporting the terrorist group known as the Kosovo Liberation Army (whose members now rule the liberated Kosovo, and whose involvement in crime ranging from drug to weapon to organ smuggling has been proven time and time again).
Again, I am not defending the KLA. They are a bunch of criminals who killed more Albanians than Serbs anyway. But they are going to escape justice anyway, by bribery.
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No one likes to believe that indoctrination happened on their side. And, no matter what you may believe, I'm far from having anything against the Albanian people as such. I'm not talking Albanians here. I'm talking criminals. From both sides, as I despise Milosevic's regime as much as you do.
I actually dont despise Milosevic now as much before. He was just another guy who thought he "Knew" what was best for everyone. If it was 2013, he would have succeeded and nobody would have judged him. I am not saying this is bad, jsut that with time, the perception of who the criminal is changes.
I dont see why you would hate him, I dont know his internal politics, but he wanted the best for serbs. Nothing to hate there.
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While Milosevic danced to the international tune, he was proclaimed a factor of peace and stability throughout the western media. As soon as he stopped being an obedient dictator and turned into a rabid one, they put him down, and installed puppet regimes where it suited them, led by other dictators, such as Franjo Tudjman in Croatia (whose cabinet orchestrated several war crimes against Serbs and Bosnian Muslims) and Alija Izet-Begovic in Bosnia (replace Bosnian Muslims with Croats). The US got out as liberators, with a brand new base in a loyal Kosovo. If I was a conspiracy theorist, I could take my time to connect the Kosovo drug mafia supplying up to 40% of the heroin sold in Europe and North America at the turn of the century, with the US army's prior involvement in the trafficking of copious amounts of heroin from Afghanistan. But I'm not even going to do that.
No need for conspiracy theories, Kosovo mafia is well known. What however is less wellknown is that EU officials are endorsing the mafia.
I cant comment on the croats. From what I have read, they were endorsed by the west, serbs had no russian friends back then.
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At any rate, looking at your situation now (Jesus, even Serbian living standards are stellar when compared to Kosovo), and the only notable economic factor over there still being crime, with hardly anything that would indicate any kind of change in the future... Well, I wonder what's going to happen now that your warlords are running out of Serbs to blame.
The warlords will probably die one day, hopefully, of arteriosclerosis because of cholesterol. That said, Kosovo is only alive beccuase of Kosovo diaspora living in the EU. They send alot of money here.
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This is all mostly off topic, though, so let's not dwell on this more than we have to. Still, like I said, some important parallels can be made with the main discussion - including the rant against western military action and its involvement in many Muslim-populated countries.
Lastly, the claim of large numbers of Albanians forced to declare as Turkish and be deported during the wars of independence from the Ottomans, and the impact thereof on the ethnic/religious demographics in the Balkans, is a pretty heavy one. I'm not denying it happened, mind you - but it might need some backing up if you aimed to show that it was (and to what extent) a serious factor in demographics, and not simply that Serbs are evil.
The greeks did the same, and that was endorsed by turkish goverment under Ataturk. Dont want to dwell on that though, its not relevant.
Ill have to search the net for numbers and I am not up to it. Cant back up my "assertion".
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seraphim
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posted February 22, 2014 10:43 AM |
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I dont know what happened to the edit function in HC, but dont take the "Biased" part I sad in the beginning as an offense. I think its biased, but thats just an opinion. I can back my opinion on the fact that author ignored the rise of nationalism in albania. I could be wrong and I cant say I care about this issue.
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"Science is not fun without cyanide"
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GunFred
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Sexy Manticore
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posted February 22, 2014 10:49 AM |
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TRI-TRI-TRIPPLE POOOOOST!!!
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seraphim
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posted March 20, 2014 06:22 PM |
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xerox
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posted March 20, 2014 06:29 PM |
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I think it's hypocritical of many Western politicians to be so supportive of Saudi Arabia and so hateful against Iran, when Iran is actually much more democratic than the Saudi monarchy.
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Over himself, over his own
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seraphim
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posted March 20, 2014 06:38 PM |
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xerox said:
I think it's hypocritical of many Western politicians to be so supportive of Saudi Arabia and so hateful against Iran, when Iran is actually much more democratic than the Saudi monarchy.
Well, oil is more important than justice. Saudi Arabia is also the nr1 exporter of sunni terrorism including wahhabism.
They support the taliban, al nusra and all ther other terrorist groups.
They even support wahhabism in the balkans and europe.
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xerox
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posted March 20, 2014 06:40 PM |
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Not sure about oil but the US could have cooperated with Iran in the war of terror against Sunni extremists in exchange for stopped support for Hezbollah.
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Over himself, over his own
body and
mind, the individual is
sovereign.
- John Stuart Mill
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claidman_kid
Bad-mannered
THIS IS NOT A LAUGHING MATTER
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posted March 28, 2014 05:47 PM |
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Your definition of facts is rather loose, but that's not the point.
There is a time and a place for everything, and way in which you should do things. I'm fine with debating religion, I'm an atheist, I personally do not like religion, but on forums when a mod has asked you to stop is not the time or place. You are completely ignoring the way in which you said two things. We have discussed religion on the forums before, but you people were not having a reasonable discussion.
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The spread of secular Islam culture within a state through breeding or further immigration. Comparable to a cancer due to its secular nature and somewhat detached from the "whole" that can block off key access points and can bring an end to a state just by being what it is, rightly feared by nationalists, though quite misguided in their attempts to bring an end to it.
As a nationalist socialist meritocrat I don't consider this as a good thing at all, but only when I have my society in my mind and I was presented with this "problem" (though I don't see how it would come about seeing the nature of my regime) where allegiance to the state and the overarching purpose of the state as dictated by a monarch/dictator is paramount. Ergo, the existence of a secular culture that owes allegiance to a foreign entity wouldn't be viable, and many of them would not pass something like the oath of allegiance, comparable to when King Henry VIII enacted the law "supremacy of the crown" that required people to serve the king before god.(god as in the will of the pope since he apparently interprets the will of god or some nonsense like that) Anyway, the point is the process of citizenship would be thus that would require all people to place the needs of the nation before personal wants/beliefs, so any Muslim that takes such an oath would be part of the whole thereby neutralizing "islamisation".
If I do not have my society in mind then I do not mind 'Islamisation' at all.
You think talking down a religion that hates western culture is in any way a productive or unbiased statement?
You were both just ranting, and were asked to stop. You didn't. Some people already got a fair penalization. You had no real punishment, you were just told to drop it, and more than fairly because of the way you've been talking about it.
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VERY_MUSTANG
Tavern Dweller
Party All Night!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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posted March 28, 2014 05:59 PM |
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More war??
Uhh.... Islam is kinda alike to christianity i beleive. There´´s not many differencess.There are extrimists in both religions... Ppl like osama were probably good ppl too at heart,but had a bad youth or mental problems. Do u ppl think some1 are rly killing some1 else becausse of religion?Killing is just stupid and illegal. It+´´s inhuman.. Ppl are sickly and dont know how to live their lifes,got beaten as children or what ever!  
Islam is nothing with war.Religions books are all old, even bilbe says something about war right? Like homosexualitty is illegal it says.W/E/ Lifes go on as usual. Islamisattion is nothing to be afraid of,with peace and science peopole will not take religion as seriusly with time. It´+s obvious.But ppl are free to beleive in what ever they want i think. But thatts just my opinion!Dont hate  Or whatt eveeeeeeaaaaaaaa im not too god in the subject im not a proffessor or anything.As i said dont be mad indstead we can keep a civilize discusion.
 -PEACE OUT-
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seraphim
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posted April 11, 2014 03:27 AM |
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Edited by seraphim at 03:35, 11 Apr 2014.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 11, 2014 08:23 AM |
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It's an article with interesting bits, although very open to argument this part is a different perspective:
There are questions that you can resolve with democracy within a functioning country, but when your country has less of an existence than the conflicting religious and ethnic identities of its people, democracy only makes the problem worse. Democracy in Iraq means Shiites voting to be Shiite, Sunnis voting to be Sunni and Kurds voting to be Kurds. Democracy in Syria would mean the same thing. And that way lies a federation and then secession and civil war all over again.
The problem in the Middle East isn't a lack of democracy. It's the lack of anything to be democratic about.
However, when you take a modern conflict, originate it in Islam and make a deduction such as this
This isn't civilization. It's the complete collapse of civilization. At its barest minimum, civilization is co-existence. Islam is the opposite of co-existence and of civilization. Its sheer age only means that there is even more in its past to fight over.
that is assuming a lot, to say the least. People from many religions and cultures did co-exist under Islam, history has seen Islamic Empires and an empire can not be nationalist or tribal because of its very nature. While I agree that Islam is outdated and unless some serious reforming takes place (which is theologically a problem because of the belief that Quran is Allah speaking word by word), it will remain a sociological menace, it would be an overstatement to say that it WAS NOT part of what human civilization produced but rather an obstacle against it. It feels hard to imagine now but there was a time when Islamic realms were quite ahead of their time in terms of both civil rights and literacy.
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Baklava
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posted April 11, 2014 02:44 PM |
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Edited by Baklava at 17:02, 11 Apr 2014.
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There was a time when Jews fled Spain, faced with ethnic cleansing on Queen Isabella's part, and settled Istanbul where the Sultan welcomed them with open hands. She was granted the title of "Servant of God" by the Catholic Church, not in the middle ages, but in 1974.
There was a time when the Ottomans had a multicultural empire from the western men in the Balkans to the tribesmen of North Africa, whereas its rival colonial empires in the West exterminated and enslaved the natives wherever they went.
The West got to be so condenscending toward conservative places which can't get rid of negative dogmas right now, because Catholicism was one of the more terrible things in Europe for a very long time, and the Westerners curbed it as much as possible. Byzantium, for instance, never had the renaissance not because they got conquered by the Turks, but because they never had the dark ages like western Europe did, in the first place.
Of course, Catholicism had its uses as well, especially during the power vacuum left by the fallen Western Roman Empire, when the tribes started settling in and taking over. The Great Schism happened because Rome wanted too much centralization, and in a place that was traditionally good for overseeing Europe, but that centralization brought order to the West and legitimacy to its kings. It also enabled the Church to preserve a lot of ancient knowledge from getting devoured and lost in the chaos of the age - which later degenerated into clutching to this knowledge firmly and refusing to share, in order to preserve the power they had.
Radical Islam, just like radical anything, is ancient and tired. It's been a backward thing for centuries and has now, for current standards, been rendered entirely unacceptable. Of course it has. If half of these news reports about Saudi Arabia are true (because, just like with North Korean haircuts, the sheer sensationalism tied to the place can lead to a bunch of unchecked bullshyte, as there are no consequences for spreading wrongful info), then it's an unbelievable shytehole, whose overlords of course have nothing to fear because they trade with the right people. Francisco Franco was a fascist - a term not used descriptively, he actually came to power on behalf of the Falange - and he was proclaimed a friend of the American people by Nixon.
But a lot of supposed human rights fighters and organizations do come off as arrogant and judgmental toward something they don't seem to understand, and often every bit as dogmatic as practitioners of all the conservative shyte they oppose.
____________
"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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seraphim
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posted April 11, 2014 09:30 PM |
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@Artu
I think its rather hard to debate with the case of the ottoman empire.
My personal opinion is that the ottomans inherited laws, infrastructure and knowledge from people who already lived in a large empire.
The religion changed, but not the customs and not the traditions. Not to mention that later on the ottomans used janissaries, and that actually caused/made the ottoman empire, the most modern form of military at that time it began to use them.
I dont want to excuse islam or religion in general.
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artu
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted April 11, 2014 09:54 PM |
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Excusing it is something else. One mustn't lose perspective just not to excuse it though. And I'm not only talking about the Ottomans, Middle-East was an important center of civilization part of pre-enlightenment world long before them.
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Baklava
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posted April 12, 2014 03:28 PM |
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A huge part of the greatest medieval scientists, astronomers, mathematicians, healers etc. originated in the caliphates. Back then, Islam was an undeniably good political climate for these things. People don't know that because they don't understand how crucial history is to understanding any social problem on the planet.
That's because of the widespread "I don't care how it came to be, let's fix it" attitude, which more often than not results in failure to deal with problems efficiently (or, in some cases, making things worse).,
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 08, 2014 12:39 PM |
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To state my opinion on this matter, as presented by first post I want to say the next few things:
- in my country (Romania) there aren't that many muslims; most are students (majority in medicine school) and business men; also there is a turk minority in the south east of the country (Dobrogea region);
- from my travels in western europe I noticed indeed, that the muslim population there is larger, percentage wise;
- there has also been in the past 15 years an increase in restaurants, fast food joints and bars with an oriental specific;
None of the things I have mentioned above have an impact on every day life, at least here. Discussing about religion and their ideas of how the relation between man and woman should be that's their business.
In the 21st century I see religion as a personal preference which should not be subject of criticism as long as it does not affect the others. I for example am a christian orthodox, if let's say tomorrow I decide to be a buddhist that's my choice, it won't have an impact on my family, my friends or society in general. Ofc there some ideas or religious beliefs that I dislike but nobody is forcing me to do as they do, and as long as it does not affect anyone I think everybody is free to do as they please.
I would like to conclude that religious fanaticism is the disease that everyone should be careful about as throughout history it was responsable for various massacres, no matter the god in whose name those deeds were done; and this applies to fanaticism and narrow minded opinions in general; when one or a few starts to dictate to the many what should they do, eat, work, like etc.
This is my 2 cents on this matter.
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