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| Thread: Heroes Universe - Development |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 · NEXT» |
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 12:02 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 00:05, 12 May 2014.
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Poll Question:
Heroes Universe - Development
[DISCUSSION THREAD]
Please read the masterthread before posting. Link
As you can imagine, by "development" I don't mean the actual coding. What I want us to discuss here is the decision making of the developers and its impact on the Heroes games and the community. Tell us what you consider went well as well as what you think went wrong.
Topic Questions
I - What are your thoughts on how the franchise has been managed so far?
II - Can you make a top of the biggest mistakes the devs have ever made (no number limit)?
III - What about top best decisions (again, no number limit)?
Poll Question:
Do you trust that the devs have learned enough from the community feedback to make better decisions in the future?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 12:07 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 08:31, 12 May 2014.
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Masterpost
I'll start first.
I - I think the franchise was heading into the right direction with its first 3 iterations but suffered a major downfall with Heroes IV. With Heroes V Ubisoft managed to return to the general lines that could be observed in Heroes III and still bring new features to the table. But then... Heroes VI, which was practically a disaster.
II - Gonna go with the magical number 3 here:
1. From a meta perspective, I think that the transition from what we saw up until Heroes III to what we saw in Heroes IV was very abrupt, which was probably the main reason why I didn't like the game. It seemed to me that a certain continuity had been broken.
2. The Heroes VI premature release with so many bugs that simply ruined the game and infuriated the fanbase.
3. Bad decisions regarding core aspects of the game, e.g. the removal of Magic Guilds and reworking of the spell system in Heroes VI.
III - Top 3:
1. The tendency of the devs to pay more attention to the community which I hope that will someday materialize into something more concrete.
2. Great implementation of features like Heroes V skillwheel.
3. Experimenting with new mechanics which won't prove to be game breaking in case the community dislikes them, e.g. the reputation system in Heroes VI.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 12:53 AM |
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I
Variably really, OH NWC cared a lot, and I think 3DO did too, but were so strapped for cash come HoMM4 that they figured that any release was better than no release. Of course, that backfired on them and they went under, dragging NWC with them. Then Ubisoft acquired the series, and saw it only really as a money-maker, with a resultant drop in quality (see both the initial buginess of the release and the tired, somewhat cliched storyline), which only got worse with the most recent release.
II
NWC/3DO
* Conflux/Forge town for Armageddon's Blade
* Releasing H4 before it was ready
Ubisoft/et al
* Releasing H5/H6 while they were still horrendously buggy
* Employing ten-year-olds as script-writters for the campaigns
* Focussing too much on graphics and not enough on everything else
III
NWC/3DO
* The music
* The Storylines
Ubisoft/et al
* Knowing to keep on going with H5, which ended up as actually a fairly reasonable game (ignoring the campaigns, which still suffered from poor writing)
* Knowing when to call it a day with H6
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Jiriki9
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Altar Dweller
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posted May 12, 2014 08:20 AM |
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ok, then I'll follow.
is that my masterpost now or did I misunderstand the main thread?
I:
Well, to me, the first three games showed a good deal of development while still keeping to the same "feel" and one really got the feeling the developers really personally cared for the series. In H4, a 'revolutionary' feeling somewhat maded them want changes, changes changes. And while some of that changes were very interesting, many were poorly done due to some kind of haste, and some were just a major step back in my eyes (I SO want H3 campaign structure back). Now Ubi...in my eyes...is going for money mainly (and yes, every company does that, but there are definitely different grades of doing so!!!). The problem is that doing so, one gets the feeling that they try to make the game more masses-compatible (I kept the translation of a German phrase here, meaning the game should have a lot of mass appeal in Ubi's eyes) and that means: make it simpler. Which I dislike because I love it complex, to a maximum of where it becomes too complex. Actually the changes they made on H6 made me never buying that game so far.
II:
Difficult. I will try. These are not really ordered by importance, because I cannot do that, really. So instead, I somehow ordered them chronologically.
-Scrapping the variable Campaign structures from H2 and H3 for linear story campaigns.
-Forcing a thousand changes at once onto poor H4, which had a lot of great ideas in it, but was just too much an overthrowing of old systems.
-The loss of the H3 fortress and the lizardmen.
-On H4: scrapping upgrades, having only 6 factions, the way infernopolis was done.
-Ashan.
-On H6: having so few factions (and which), skill system scrap-over.
-The editor loosing the easy usability which it had in H3, stepwise.
III:
see above for order.
-In the first games: Love for detail and ambience.
-In H4: complex possibilities and unit choice.
-In H5: advanced skill system and 2 upgrades/creature.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 09:07 AM |
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Edited by Stevie at 09:38, 12 May 2014.
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Jiriki9 said:
is that my masterpost now or did I misunderstand the main thread?
Yea that's perfect.  Thanks for following.
Also I'd like to say that as a standalone or a spin-off, Heroes IV could have been more successful. The game is not THAT bad if you turn a blind eye to its predecessors. But by comparison, among all the Heroes games developed so far I can wholeheartedly say it was the worst.
I mean, Heroes are units? The battlefield and castle siege? Quite big changes from something that was working fine already.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 12:00 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 12:01, 12 May 2014.
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Saying that H4 was the worst game of the series is kind of off, it might not have been fully developed, but at least it wasn't buggy, resource-hungry, waitfest mess both H5 and H6 were on their initial releases.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 12, 2014 10:09 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 22:10, 12 May 2014.
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I - What are your thoughts on how the franchise has been managed so far?
I'll start with the ubi era since that is the only relevant answer with regard to the future. H5 started badly but came to rival H3 by the time tote was released, something that makes me very happy. The game did not have the quality of H3 in some respects but it was loads of fun and extremely replayable. H6 was rather.. streamlined. I enjoyed it but it felt incomplete and had some very questionable changes that nobody asked for. Overall, it showed lack of understanding in the series and its fanbase. However.. I have some very valid reasons to believe that something good will come out of it. Seeds were planted, discussions were made.
II - Can you make a top of the biggest mistakes the devs have ever made?
Dropping upgrades, infernopolis, balancing through resource requirements as in H5(20 crystal for thanes..), same skill system for all factions, streamlining the adventure map, discarding mage guilds, H5 luckfest, bad map editor, not including proper town screens in vanilla version.
III - What about top best decisions?
Caravans, alternative upgrades, faction-specific skillwheel, faction unique gameplay, H5 bloodrage as a pure-might concept, H3/H5 hero specials, might/magic hero dichotomy, faction racials.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 12, 2014 11:19 PM |
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I - What are your thoughts on how the franchise has been managed so far?
Elvin said:
I'll start with the ubi era since that is the only relevant answer with regard to the future. H5 started badly but came to rival H3 by the time tote was released, something that makes me very happy. The game did not have the quality of H3 in some respects but it was loads of fun and extremely replayable. H6 was rather.. streamlined. I enjoyed it but it felt incomplete and had some very questionable changes that nobody asked for. Overall, it showed lack of understanding in the series and its fanbase. However.. I have some very valid reasons to believe that something good will come out of it. Seeds were planted, discussions were made.
Having discussed this with Elvin thoroughly over the past couple of years, I am very much inclined to agree with this.
However, we do have to make a clear distinction here. Ubisoft is not the developer. Ubisoft is the publisher. The only way Ubisoft would be the developer, is when they will make the game inhouse. By Ubisoft-Montreal, or Ubisoft-Paris or Ubisoft-Shanghai or any other of it's daughter-/offshoot-developmentstudios. Ubisoft is the publisher, Nival & BlackHole & Limbic and the Chinese one of which the name escapes me have been the Developers. And unless Ubisoft has contracted a new studio for Heroes VII, the devs have learned nothing. The Publisher might have.
II - Can you make a top of the biggest mistakes the devs have ever made (no number limit)?
No Upgrades; Making you have to live with the Creature Selection made by the AI; Infernopolis; Same skill system for all factions; H5 luckfest; Not including proper town screens in vanilla version; The loss of the H3 fortress and the lizardmen; Setting 9 as a hard faction-cap; Giving a single person veto-power in regards to the creative process; Making changes for change-sake; Scrapping catapult aiming entirely;
III - What about top best decisions (again, no number limit)?
Upgrades; Faction-specific Skillwheel (sans luck-factor); Caravans; Town Conversion; Faction unique gameplay; H5 bloodrage as a pure-might concept; Faction racials; Unique Buildtrees; Tiered Town-portal travel; Spell-division in both tiers and schools.
(Thanks Elvin & Jiriki for summing some of them up for me)
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 12, 2014 11:46 PM |
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War-overlord said:
However, we do have to make a clear distinction here. Ubisoft is not the developer. Ubisoft is the publisher. The only way Ubisoft would be the developer, is when they will make the game inhouse. By Ubisoft-Montreal, or Ubisoft-Paris or Ubisoft-Shanghai or any other of it's daughter-/offshoot-developmentstudios. Ubisoft is the publisher, Nival & BlackHole & Limbic and the Chinese one of which the name escapes me have been the Developers. And unless Ubisoft has contracted a new studio for Heroes VII, the devs have learned nothing. The Publisher might have.
This. But I think you meant "the devs might have learned something".
But why? Why doesn't Ubisoft stick with one developer? By changing devs every new installment they're practically throwing away all the experience they acquired. Instead of seeking continuity they just reset. Very stupid decisions imo, and it's been like this since Heroes IV. Coincidence?
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 12, 2014 11:56 PM |
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I must say it, this is an excellent initiative, Stevie. I can't wait to join on further discussion (threads)
Stevie said:
War-overlord said:
And unless Ubisoft has contracted a new studio for Heroes VII, the devs have learned nothing. The Publisher might have.
This. But I think you meant "the devs might have learned something".
No he didn't. If the developer is being replaced after every title, the following developer cannot have learned anything. And I utterly agree on this point, it's something I will bring to the table tomorrow when I can write a proper reply
Stevie said:
Why doesn't Ubisoft stick with one developer? By changing devs every new installment they're practically throwing away all the experience they acquired. Instead of seeking continuity they just reset. Very stupid decisions imo, and it's been like this since Heroes IV.
$$$$
Stevie said:
Coincidence?
I think not! 
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 13, 2014 11:19 AM |
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Stevie said:
This. But I think you meant "the devs might have learned something".
No, exactly what Storm said.
Quote:
But why? Why doesn't Ubisoft stick with one developer? By changing devs every new installment they're practically throwing away all the experience they acquired. Instead of seeking continuity they just reset. Very stupid decisions imo, and it's been like this since Heroes IV. Coincidence?
Different Reasons for every studio. Though as Storm alluded to, money was certainly a factor. Much of this is hearsay, so take this for what you will.
In case of Nival, there were allegedly 2 reasons for the break with Ubisoft. 1 There was supposedly a creative difference between the Ubi Higher-ups and the Nival Guys. 2 Nival was developing a game of their own at the time and would not start the development of the supposed Heroes VI untill they finished with their own game.
In case of Black Hole, they went bankrupt during/near the end of the Developmentcycle of Heroes VI Vanilla. Allegedly the underestimated the work and were exceptionally sloppy programmers. On the other hand, a supposed former Black Hole Employee, verry huffily, blamed the whole thing on the Ubi Higher-ups who supposedly kept changing what they wanted, did not account for that in their deadlines and paid peanuts for it all. Likely the truth lies somewhere in the middle of that, but it did do Heroes VI any good for sure.
Limbic took over from BH, but were only given a short-term contract. Likely because they had to start the development of M&M-X on time. In what little time they had they fixed what they could of the supposed mess of a code. And, together with Marzhin, made the 2 Adventurepacks. (Which, IMHO, were still the best examples of storytelling in the Ubisoft-era of Heroes)
The contract with the Chinese dev, of which I still don't know the name, likely simply ended because they gave up on Heroes VI.
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 13, 2014 01:38 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:06, 13 May 2014.
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War-overlord said:
The contract with the Chinese dev, of which I still don't know the name,
Virtuos
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 13, 2014 07:52 PM |
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Yeah, the developer succession was a mess. Nival had no community contact, was hardly professional and even badmouthed ubi(we made extra terrain even though ubi didn't tell us!). They had experience but I did not trust them to deliver. Apparently ubi didn't either. BH had a good sense of combining/tweaking abilities/features but at the same time lacked a good understanding of the series and got bankrupt anyway. Whether they could have sorted out their mess is anyone's guess but.. I doubt it. Limbic I liked better - just look at their work and community presence on MMX! - but they were a small team, a lot to deal with and very limited time. As far as I'm concerned their mind and heart were in the right place but they did not have a big enough role to prove themselves. With the game withering away due to lack of contact and lots of player negative experience, somebody had to develop an addon asap.. Enter Virtuos. Virtuos delivered a good addon though they had a pretty horrible sense of balance. But then again they were not there from the beginning and the clock was ticking.
There is no telling who will be next, all I can wish from them is creativity, understanding and communication. It's a community-driven title after all, it requires adaptability and a friendly atmosphere.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 13, 2014 08:56 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 21:04, 13 May 2014.
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In my view the biggest mistake made to the HoMM franchise in the Ubisoft era was translating the game into 3D. That said I found H5 to be a satisfactory, if uninspiring, entry in the HoMM series. I enjoyed the game, but found no reason to go back to it after I completed it. And this is coming from an obsessive mapmaker in the H1-H3 era. I did not find time to play H6 yet. I am hopeful for H7 but am far more interested in a remake of one of the old 2D games.
I am much more positive about the MMIX game. It's got a lot of rough edges, but I am happy to say that the developers clearly understand what made the classic MM games so wonderful. It's a shame the professional gaming reviewers didn't have such a clear understanding, but I suppose that's inevitable in this Elder Scrolls "everything must be big and open and realistic" era of CRPGs.
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I'm sick of following my dreams. I'm just going to ask them where they're goin', and hook up with them later. -Mitch Hedberg
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted May 13, 2014 08:57 PM |
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I wonder if it's too much to hope that Ubisoft will learn from their mistakes and just give the H7 developers a general overview of what they want?
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 14, 2014 09:14 AM |
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Some great thoughts guys. Also a lot of info about devs and publishers that I had no clue about.
Here's what I'm thinking now. I imagine that the publisher/devs might consider using the Heroes VI engine for their Heroes VII. I don't think that it would be a wise decision because someone was talking about how messy that code is. But I've seen it happen before so that's why I ask, is that code so bad that it cannot be considered a viable option for Heroes VII?
Also, I'm very interested in what you guys think about that "Conflux" feature and if it should be ported to the next installment. I personally didn't have the chance to test it, but I've heard it wasn't that well implemented. But as a concept, is it beneficial to Heroes?
Also I would like you guys to vote more so I can get some 10 votes for thread stats. Thank you.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted May 14, 2014 09:59 AM |
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Stevie said:
Here's what I'm thinking now. I imagine that the publisher/devs might consider using the Heroes VI engine for their Heroes VII.
Seems to be the case:
Quote:
• If there would be a new Heroes game, one thing that would remain for sure is the engine. Area control also proved to be as a good innovation to the Heroes series, and Ubi felt the resource reduction was an OK choice.
Though that info is from 2 years ago and they might have changed their minds, who knows
Stevie said:
Also I would like you guys to vote more so I can get some 10 votes for thread stats. Thank you.
I'll vote this afternoon, hopefully.
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War-overlord
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Presidente of Isla del Tropico
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posted May 14, 2014 11:27 AM |
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Stevie said:
Also I would like you guys to vote more so I can get some 10 votes for thread stats. Thank you.
I'd like to vote. But there is no "I'm not sure" or "Perhaps" option in the poll.
I agree with Elvin that Ubi has learned things during their community interaction. But the question is "have they learned enough" and the problem is that I don't know if they have learned "enough".
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Vote El Presidente! Or Else!
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 14, 2014 02:54 PM |
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No one here knows for sure WO. Just vote what you incline to think. Can't change the poll now. I personally saw an improvement in the sense of communication and that gave me a bit of hope.
@Stormy, so they want to use a weak engine for H7 too? I smell another disaster...
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 14, 2014 04:22 PM |
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The conflux had incredible potential but proved of of H6's greatest downfalls. It was meant to be a tool for rewarding online players without harming offline ones, in times when ubi was releasing games that required permanent online connection as a measure against piracy. Even games that had only single player. No connection = no play and H6 could well have followed suit. So I was happy ubi would not go down that road with hefoes.
Eventually though, things went downhill. Conflux issues prevented people from playing. Offline players got 8 less save slots and only 2 heroes per faction. They could not even create personalized heroes or use the dynasty weapons from the campaigns. Synchronizing saves caused saves to get lost. Online and offline saves were not compatible for like half a year.
Simply disastrous.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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