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| Thread: Do men really want to have children? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 18, 2014 05:15 AM |
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Edited by Corribus at 07:19, 18 May 2014.
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I have one child, a daughter, aged 6, though I don't post her picture online because I respect her privacy.
Before she came along I was cold to the idea of having children. Now that she is here, I cannot imagine life without her. I won't lie and say that it doesn't take sacrifice to have a child - not the least of which is time available for indulging in frivolities. That notwithstanding, there is simply no experience more rewarding than being a father.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 18, 2014 06:21 AM |
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Aron said:
It is your evolutionary duty and your duty to your family and heritage to breed.
Will evolution beat me up if I don't breed? Will my heritage punish me? My family has no hold over me, so that's irrelevant.
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Eccentric Opinion
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted May 18, 2014 09:23 AM |
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meroe said:
Your first post was brilliant Freddie, keep 'em coming please.
JJ I think you misunderstood me. And maybe the word chauvinistic was a bit too harsh.
What I am trying to get at (and probably failing miserably) - is there male pride in a guy getting his partner pregnant. Like it proves his potency?? (Not including horny squirrels and their litters  ). And if there is - why??
I mean hypothetically - if men had to give birth via their rectum (sorry about language). You know 48 hour labor, gas/air, epidurals, tearing. Would that change your opinion on having children?? Because now its your body that is being used? Your input now is longer than a few seconds. You have to carry the child and give birth.
Meroe, this whole thing isn't about mother or father, it's about creating a new life which is the fundament of our existence. Not individually, but as a species.
So GENERALLY it must be - MUST be - the natural thing to have kids. Nature WANTS you to have kids - NOT having a kid, is, by the way, the best way to keep "young", because the body regenerates longer (obviously trying to work on your biology longer to keep your chances intact to not lose your genes for the pool).
But the bottom line is much simpler: In my opinion, if two people love each other, then a child is obviously something they create together - the result is a unique mix of both, and then education should make sure that this trend continues.
Seeing child bearing as a burden under those circumstances doesn't seem right. You can obviously see everything as a burden - the whole LIFE is a burden, seen from a certain perspective.
In my opinion it's a pity that men cannot share the "burden" - carrying a child in your womb is a unique experience that's awesome. And life is no cakewalk, if you look at nature and the whole cycle of it: in the end you die anyway, and not without suffering. You just have to pick the burdens and sufferings that may be worth it, and children look to be one ofg those.
I always found the Emperor Penguin rather instructive here. 
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 18, 2014 10:03 AM |
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Edited by artu at 16:23, 18 May 2014.
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So according to you, anybody (why do you limit your argument to being a loving couple btw, if the argument is -partly- "because it's our biology") should have kids, for it is natural?
I agree with the part that things in life that are worth something usually comes with some type of burden, responsibility. I agree they require time and energy and affection and that's not unique to kids. But isn't it taking another step, to say, it's the natural thing to do according to our biology. By our biological tendencies, we are not a specie (especially the male), that goes for lifelong monogamy or parenting. We have no problem adjusting that behavior into something else, if we wish to. So, I really don't see any problem if a couple(or a single person) adjust their biological urges to a different situation and say, we are happier without any kids. They may regret it later, when it's too late, that's for sure but that also holds true for everything else And keep in mind there are also people, who enter into their fifties, realize they spent all their life parenting, deep down think they could have done more with their life and regret having children. Of course, they wouldn't call the kid and tell him he was a mistake but they have problematic relationships with them which involves a lot of suppressed anger.(Basic material for family dramas and Russian novels  ).
Having a kid is a major decision and it's not always wise to jump in blindly "because it's the natural thing to do." Not just because you're having a cold feet, of course, that is indeed a very bad reason to give it up. But if you're seriously having issues picturing yourself as a parent, there's no guarantee that biology will take care of everything along the way.
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JollyJoker
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posted May 18, 2014 10:23 AM |
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No, they SHOULD not. We are not slaves of biology
There is just nothing wrong with it on one hand, and on the other it's one of the great adventures of life. So you shouldn't be afraid of it or something.
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 18, 2014 10:31 AM |
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Edited by artu at 16:24, 18 May 2014.
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That's why I emphasize fear of commitment (the cold feet) is not a good reason not to do it. But it is not the ONLY reason why people don't have kids.
Biology not being the only thing that dictates our motivations was my objection to begin with, so I don't know why you mention we are not slaves to biology, that was what I've just said.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
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posted May 18, 2014 11:53 AM |
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I wasn't making that point. In fact, I'm arguing the other way round: NOT ONLY is there obviously NOTHING WRONG with it from a biological point of view, it's also one of life's great adventures for 2 people in love (and sometimes even just for 1 or any number of them).
So, for me, it's something where all regularly paved roads more or less automatically lead to IN GENERAL.
Of course there are exceptions. And of course that's the most personal and individual decision.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2014 12:03 PM |
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Edited by Aron at 12:04, 18 May 2014.
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It's not really a major decision in the way you put it Artu. It's a normal, natural decision which should make sense to most. It's our world which is sick and twisted that leaves less and less room for such things as love and family.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted May 18, 2014 12:40 PM |
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Edited by meroe at 12:44, 18 May 2014.
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Thanks guys, I am loving reading your comments, but I feel we may have gotten away from my original question.
Roughly - "Do men really feel the need to breed?"
I am not asking necessarily about what is the accepted societal norm. I want to know what goes through a man's mind in regards to procreating. Is there some 'caveman' drive to find a female or females and impregnate her/them? Gathering himself a harem of willing or subjugated females and starting a new nation? Or is it something that happens when a man falls in love with a certain partner and because of this comes the desire to 'make something magical' together?
EDIT:
Forfy - man hating??? Not at all. I genuinely want to know. I haven't seen any man hating here.
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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artu
Promising
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My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 18, 2014 12:48 PM |
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Edited by artu at 12:51, 18 May 2014.
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Aron said:
It's not really a major decision in the way you put it Artu. It's a normal, natural decision which should make sense to most. It's our world which is sick and twisted that leaves less and less room for such things as love and family.
But I'm not claiming it's an unnatural decision, I'm underlining it's an important decision and responsibility. Say for example, you and your wife have this ideal of traveling the world, roam around where ever the road takes you, you don't see a stable home environment and raising a family fitting in that plan, actually, you don't even see yourself as part of a nuclear family, the green yard and all that... That's not about "our world which is sick and twisted that leaves less and less room for such things as love and family," that's simply about you making another kind of choice, which, by your own judgement, contradicts with the idea of having children and providing a stable environment for them.
One can argue that a stable home and a loving family would be the basis of plain happiness for MOST people. But there are all kinds of people and some don't simply dream about that. They dream of other things. What you can afford, (how many alternatives you can afford AT THE SAME TIME) is also a key element in this, I mean Picasso can have a kid in his seventies, still lock himself in his studio for months, an the nanny can take care of things meanwhile but what if he wasn't a millionaire, what if he was one of those painters who struggled with poverty during his life time? Then it would have been "put your energy and dedication into this OR that." And even if we skip that, some people are simply not that into kids or a big family, they genuinely feel more comfortable as a childless couple, it's not because they think the ugliness of the world prevents them from having a traditional family, it's that their idea of an ideal life is based on other things.
I understand that most people with kids may react to this in a "they can't comprehend what they're missing out cause they haven't the slightest idea about how wonderful that feeling of being a parent is" kind of way. But I (and you) also have no idea what it feels like to be a wanderer or being able to paint something like the Guernica or living completely recklessly or dedicating your life to spiritual enlightenment as some monk in a monastery or...
meroe said:
Thanks guys, I am loving reading your comments, but I feel we may have gotten away from my original question.
Roughly - "Do men really feel the need to breed?"
I am not asking necessarily about what is the accepted societal norm. I want to know what goes through a man's mind in regards to procreating. Is there some 'caveman' drive to find a female or females and impregnate her/them? Gathering himself a harem of willing or subjugated females and starting a new nation? Or is it something that happens when a man falls in love with a certain partner and because of this comes the desire to 'make something magical' together?
Yes, we feel the need to breed very strongly all the time
The concept of staying with the woman and kid, establishing a traditional family, on the other hand, is not an instinct, it's a social construct, it's cultural. That doesn't mean it's something superficial or something that we decide in cold blood, calculating the odds. It means sticking around the kid is not a biological urge in men, at least as strong as it is in women. Maternal instincts are much more massive.
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Aron
Known Hero
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posted May 18, 2014 01:25 PM |
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Meroe what goes in about in a womans head wanting to be penetrated?
Geez you're asking from the completely wrong perspective and we have all given you our perspective which is about evolutionary biology, love and simply having someone to carry on your legacy.
We have various hormonal elements in us which push us towards this and make it pleasant.
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted May 18, 2014 01:36 PM |
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I am not talking about sex Aron. I am talking about knowingly wanting to produce children.
I want to know if a man has a conscious need to produce. Say a single guy who decides he really wants to be a dad. Why would that matter to him? Is there an hormonal stimulus that causes this in guys? Or is it some egotistical reason?
Or is it just as simple as sex drive and to hell with the consequences?
I've read all your comments and I've heard similar from other people when asked. Ugh, maybe I am flogging a dead horse. I might be over-estimating the male psyche. Maybe guys just don't have that level of reasoning?
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Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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Jabanoss
Promising
Legendary Hero
Property of Nightterror™
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posted May 18, 2014 01:36 PM |
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What a great thread. 
To me the question is kinda obvious. I definitely want to be a father.
Fundamentally I like kids, I think they are interesting and they give such different perspective than what adults do. Not all kids mind you, but enough of them to make me believe that I would like my own kids.
I want to have children also for a more "deep rooted" reasons and think JJ somewhat talked about it. I want to have kids that are products of the love between myself and my soulmate. I want to see the incarnation of the two of us. If that makes any sense. I mean, I'm the kind of guy that gets immensely excited just for having my people in The Sims get kids. I can only imagine what I would feel like I was going to have a kid for real myself.
Of course having kids is neither an obvious choice or something I take for granted. There are so many aspects to it, one being that both partners have to want it. I often ask myself if having a partner who doesn't want children would be a dealbreaker, and I think I have to say that yes it would most likely be a dealbreaker. But there are two things to consider with this, and the first thing is that it's impossible to say before meeting the perfect girl. The second thing is, what if I break up with someone just because they what to stay childfree, would I be happier with someone else? After all, near perfect girls doesn't grow on trees.
I will add that I would never judge anyone for not wanting to have kids, and I certainly respect women that doesn't want to go though pregnancy. When I say that it's a dealbreaker I don't mean that I can't stand being with them. Just that there's schism in what we want out of life, and what we want cannot be gained together. (offspring vs childfree.)
What I'm saying is, I would never pressure anyone to have kids with me and pregnancy entails quite different things for a man and a woman. I could never even if I wanted, share the "burden" of being pregnant.(More than being a supportive man, bla bla etc. etc....)
Having children is a HUGE commitment, and while I certainly think I want to have kids I have to make completely sure whether I want them or not before getting them. Because lets face it there are major points for not having them as well. Not having tiny folks running around your feet would save you both money and time. You and you love can spend you adult life just traveling and taking care of yourself.
Ultimately for me though, I think having kids is preferable to not having them. It would in a sense be the biggest accomplishment that I could ever hope to achieve. I don't mean that in a belittling way to describe myself but rather a way to say how much I value the worth of having my own children.
However this is a great discussion and definitely the question to have kids or not, is not an easy one to answer.
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"You turn me on Jaba"
- Meroe
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master_learn
Legendary Hero
walking to the library
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posted May 18, 2014 01:41 PM |
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Meroe,if you believe the answer is "no",then all gathering of men opinions and points of view would become pointless.
No matter how big the letters are,no matter what shrift and underlining and sencerity we include in our asnwers to you.
If you believe the answer is yes,then once again,the discussion we have is not over.SIMPLY because there are MANY men with different of opposite view on this,and GENERALIZING one man's view,which you see as supporting YOUR view,is just sticking to your zone of comfort.
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"I heard the latest HD version disables playing Heroes. Please reconsider."-Salamandre
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 18, 2014 01:42 PM |
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Meroe, isn't the answer to your question obvious? If there WAS a caveman drive, a need to breed, wouldn't then every really rich man, every billionnaire, have hundreds of kids?
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meroe
Supreme Hero
Basically Smurfette
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posted May 18, 2014 01:46 PM |
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Edited by meroe at 13:47, 18 May 2014.
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Thanks Jaba. You see this is what I am talking about. Rational men telling me what goes through their minds in regards to kids.
I am not going to lie. I have and still do find some guys need to become a father rather weird. Dubious even. Like they are saying this because they think its what a woman wants to hear, just to get into her knickers.
But if they repeatedly say it (and there is nothing personal between you), it becomes almost suspect. Ohh I don't know.
But its also nice to hear that so many see it as the ultimate loving completion of a relationship.
Thanks guys.
You are right there JJ and I had never thought of that.
____________
Meroe is definetely out, sweet
as she sounds sometimes, she'd
definetely castrate you with a
rusted razror and forcefeed
your genitals to you in a
blink of an eye - Kipshasz
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artu
Promising
Undefeatable Hero
My BS sensor is tingling again
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posted May 18, 2014 01:49 PM |
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Edited by artu at 13:51, 18 May 2014.
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meroe said:
Say a single guy who decides he really wants to be a dad. Why would that matter to him? Is there an hormonal stimulus that causes this in guys? Or is it some egotistical reason?
It would depend on what you define as egotistical. He may want to be part of something that is bigger than everyday struggles of life, something that makes him feel needed or simply he may want to experience to love unconditionally and see raising a kid as the most genuine way to do that. This can all be interpreted as egotistical in a broader sense, but not "selfish" in the traditional sense. But take notice, women who decide to be a single parent for such reasons greatly outnumber men who decide that and biology is a key factor in that. I guess the simplest way to put it would be to say, the sublimations we pick are not totally independent from our biological urges.
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OhforfSake
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Initiate
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posted May 18, 2014 02:42 PM |
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meroe said:
Roughly - "Do men really feel the need to breed?"
I don't think so, to be honest.
meroe said:
Forfy - man hating??? Not at all. I genuinely want to know. I haven't seen any man hating here.
Corribus said:
That notwithstanding, there is simply no experience more rewarding than being a father.
What about being a mother?
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markkur
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Once upon a time
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posted May 18, 2014 03:32 PM |
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Edited by markkur at 15:35, 18 May 2014.
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I am a father and grandfather. Fatherhood is a spiritual thing for me. Yeah I had to have the 'bio' to go there but it would have been a tragic mistake if my heart and head were not in to it...to this day. With my fatherhood, something inside was (and is) met and satisfied. However, mine is a happy story because I wanted kids. I wanted to teach and play (likely traditional) just like some want to hold and love.
<imo> The desire to be a parent "can" be a natural thing no matter what we think is the source. However like everything else folks are different and are not the same. Fred mentioned a "breeding mentality" but that's not regulated to one idiotic group, that happens to be a world wide mentality that's a terrible reason to make children.
Unfortunately there is something nearly as bad but far more prevalent; a man or woman "thinking" they want a child but once the child breathes (in-reality) they only wanted a DOLL - something to put on the shelf when tired of the hassle. Like people act with growing puppies and kittens.
I found it interesting to read the different thoughts in this thread but more importantly they make my point about folks being different. Some people want to be a parent, some only think they do and some know they don't. Others simply believe they are supposed to be a parent while many others don't think at all and babies are an unfortunate accident.
Children are as different as night and day...just like their parents. So, the idea of having a child, must-be a devoted mindset...or we have the world we have today.
I adore children and I think that, after marriage, they are the next best thing but I have changed thousands of nasty diapers (some beyond belief) along the way.
"Having a child" always boils down to a choice but it should by default be a sacred commitment every bit as important as marriage. In one way it is even more important than marriage. because your mate can make it without you but a child, until a certain age, cannot.
There is no one answer to the question. It is a personal decision based on personal belief. Want-to, Have-to and oh, wouldn't it be nice. I think anyone that takes their time in answering the big question of having children is very wise.
Btw, <imo> Considering the world today. I doubt there is a higher calling than when a person decides to not have children and goes on and loves and helps the needy babes already here in some way.
Sorry if I'm a 'bit' off-topic, at my age I couldn't cut it up.
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Baklava
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Legendary Hero
Mostly harmless
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posted May 18, 2014 03:39 PM |
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Quote:
Do men
Oh Meroe.
We've had some female members on here, but I think you're the femalest of them all.
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"Let me tell you what the blues
is. When you ain't got no
money,
you got the blues."
Howlin Wolf
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