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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted November 11, 2015 11:14 AM |
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Bitula said:
Just because homm3 is 2d doesn't automatically mean it has a good graphics or that it is aesthetically appealing. That’s just nostalgia. I played 3 after 5 and I found the visuals in 3 ugly. The towns are OK, but the units are especially ugly. Homm5 has much better visuals despite being 3D. And IMO civilization 1 and the SSI/Goldbox games like Pool of Radiance have far superior visuals than Homm 3.
You seem to be forgetting that visuals weren't on the first priority when making a game in the (late) 20th century. Unlike today.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 11:19 AM |
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That is an unfair comparison because while H3 was good for its time, the graphics are long dated now. But unit design was pretty good and tasteful and that is what Galaad is talking about. Did you find it ugly when it came out? I somehow doubt it. Times change, visuals evolve.
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 12:33 PM |
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LOL I consider H3 to look great even today. Hell, H2 is the best looking Heroes in my opinion. On the other hand I find H5 graphics really distasteful, and don't get me started with unit or faction design on that game please...
In any case, Heroes has never had a visual identity. You may say that there's some consistent visual identity in H1 and H2, but beyond that every game was a drastic change in comparison with the rest.
If we speak about unit design then yes, there was certainly a common theme in NWC unit design, which was to stick to the classic monsters and mythos that are present in our culture (mainly western culture).
What Ubi has done is to use them, and pervert them to fit their Ashan universe in a way that there's nothing left from them except for the name.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 01:05 PM |
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vitirr said:
In any case, Heroes has never had a visual identity. You may say that there's some consistent visual identity in H1 and H2, but beyond that every game was a drastic change in comparison with the rest.
Ty for supporting my point
Quote:
What Ubi has done is to use them, and pervert them to fit their Ashan universe in a way that there's nothing left from them except for the name.
For example? Because all i can think of is the two-headed Cerberus.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 01:11 PM |
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Off the top of my head.. The Japanese naga. The vampire knight. The zombie lich.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 11, 2015 01:25 PM |
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I think King's Bounty The Legend is the only Heroes game since 2003 to come close to capturing the same spirit and aesthetic of the NWC games lol
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 01:35 PM |
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Wholeheartedly agree heh 
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 01:36 PM |
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Elvin said:
Off the top of my head.. The Japanese naga. The vampire knight. The zombie lich.
-The only naga who looked indian was the H3 one. From the top head to the neck only ofc because i doubt bondage bras are typical hindu clothes
-As opposed to the "mythological" Bela Lugosi vampire? Lol. Its almost as if Vlad Tepes wasnt a knight or as if the vampire knight trope hasnt been a thing since the 90s
-Right the mythological creature from Dungeons and Dragons (which they also changed too be closer to an skeleton so you hushed btw)
Reply when you are literally able to make an argument that actually can hold please, bot before.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 01:42 PM |
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Heroes never was about historical/mythological accuracy because who cares How many would want an ugly as hell succubus for instance? Ubi on the other hand is going with (arbitrary) Ashan accuracy which again, who cares.
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Map also hosted on Moddb
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 01:43 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 16:41, 11 Nov 2015.
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Butterfly dragons, the plethora of dragonblood infused beasts, the majority of Ashan's fauna being academy experiments (orcs, beastmen, lizardmen, etc.), Seraphs as half human half angel, thanes being lava bathed dwarves, vampires and liches being humans drinking radioactive green jizz, death knights and reapers being in fact vampires, coral priestesses and medusas being in fact nagas, the mentioned cerberus having 2 heads, succubus and incubus being in fact demonologists, and I'm sure this is not all of it. Add to that the many other non-mythical, non-legendary, non-folklore creatures like spiders, snakes, wolves, bears, deer, mimes, and whoever knows what other balderdash while Unicorns, Phoenixes and Manticores are put for vote and consequently tossed out and you get the picture why this game lost what was crucial core appeal. This new "high fantasy" vision which no doubt in my mind Erwanifico came up while playing his favorite World of Warcraft game has done nothing more than to alienate the original medieval fantasy setting and sword and sorcery feel that Heroes previously had.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 01:46 PM |
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Actually..
Which only makes the blackie's new look all the more amusing 
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 01:53 PM |
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Elvin said:
That is an unfair comparison because while H3 was good for its time, the graphics are long dated now. But unit design was pretty good and tasteful and that is what Galaad is talking about. Did you find it ugly when it came out? I somehow doubt it. Times change, visuals evolve.
Well compared to pool of radiance, yes, I find it ugly, and that is a much older game with 8X8 pixel images. So I think it is just a matter of taste. For me SSI/Civ 1 were the first games and, ok, maybe I am biased towards them, the same way you are probably towards Homm3. I just don’t think that Homm 3 has an objectively good graphics, neither technically, nor aesthetically. And yes Homm5 is cartoonish, which is irritating (although I’ve got used to it) somewhat but has nothing to do with overall graphics quality.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 02:18 PM |
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For me, it's quite simple - I suppose, a couple of people will nod their heads when they read this.
It may help to relate how I got to playing HoMM in the first place. I was massively into War Games at the time; the whole SSI stuf, including Panzer General (the Japanese Sega version of which I had bought me a Sega Genesis for to play), Master of Orion ... and a friend (who shared the War Game affection) was telling my I should play HoMM (1) - he would play it with his children and it would be a blast.
Yeah, right. He showed it to me (only shortly) and I wasn't impressed about a purple troll spilling blood when hit.
Then HoMM 2 came out, and this time he started to really hit onto me, the game would be great and whatnot, and when there was a special offer, the game coming with a bonus HoMM 1 version, I bought it.
Installed 1 first. Started playing a campaign. Got into things - and decided after a couple of hours it was time to try 2, 1 being pretty cool.
And the game just blew me away - utterly and completely, and I consider Panzer General and Master of Orion still fantastic games, although I didn't get much playing time for them, after that, to tell the truth.
HoMM 2, I played every map, every campaign half a dozen times, the add-on as well, couldn't get enough.
HoMM 3 saw me even making maps - except that I didn't play the campaigns much which I found boring (changing later, when you could alter campaign difficulty).
Homm 3 was in many ways the perfect single player game, although, I'll never forget my first love for HoMM 2.
When HoMM 4 came out, I think I played the crap out of the game for like, 3 months - until a couple of things I didn't really like added up and hit me like a freight train, when things were basically over.
HoMM 5 rekindled things again. In the end it was the real deal to start things anew, because the game felt right. Only 1 hero per faction was H2-ish and no problem. The game felt good, and I gave it some play - the one thing that was amiss was the amount of available maps (same problem as with Nival's Etherlords games, mind you).
I would have liked HoMM 6 to simply continue the story, work on the map editor and make HoMM 6 what HoMM 3 was for HoMM 2.
Instead HoMM 6 felt ... disjointed. A story from the known past, a couple of hard-to-understand new "features", a completely boring hero upgrade mechanism (with FIXED primary skill development!) and meagre content plus a couple of other problems, not the least of which that the game was buggy and needlessly complicated with game mechanics.
H7 does NOT feel better than that. It feels like a game out to prove that HoMM 6 was good - better than HoMM 5 at least -, that HoMM 5 and one or 2 games before had a couple of nice ideas that just needed the right tweak and what you get is the pinnacle of the series - but what you get is ... a disjointed gaming experience that simply doesn't deliver anything that would want me play the game for 3 days without sleep.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 11, 2015 02:19 PM |
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Of course it's a matter of taste, sorry to put it this way but homm players will want homm graphics. Yes h2 and h3 and h4 are not the same, but I think it is very easy to have a big distinction between the NWC era and the Ubi one, Verriker's parallel with KB hits nail on the head. I had no “change of heart”, all I say is I find it normal people liking Ashan visuals will dislike NWC ones and vice-versa, and this ridiculous situation in the fan base would have had never happen if h5 and the following had respected the artistic direction from NWC and not throw their work to the trash in the first place.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 11, 2015 02:24 PM |
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@JJ
That's pretty much it, pure and simple.
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 02:59 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
For me, it's quite simple - I suppose, a couple of people will nod their heads when they read this.
I could only follow from around Heroes 3 and it's pretty much as you said.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 03:10 PM |
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Speaking of KB - the game was offered to Ubisoft, did you know that? It was rejected, being "crappy"...
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted November 11, 2015 03:41 PM |
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Bitula said:
Just because homm3 is 2d doesn't automatically mean it has a good graphics or that it is aesthetically appealing. That’s just nostalgia. I played 3 after 5 and I found the visuals in 3 ugly. The towns are OK, but the units are especially ugly. Homm5 has much better visuals despite being 3D.
It depends on which game you started with. I started playing Heroes with H2 and I thought the graphics had been fine that time. However, then I replaced it by H5 and immdiately, I got used to 3D graphics so much that I am not able to play any older (2D) Heroes since I played H5 for the first time.
So, it depends on your preferences and nostalgia (as you say). You cannot simply say "this game is ugly" about some old games, because the development is very quick and the game becomes old and in your opinion "ugly" very soon. Nevertheless, I cannot understand how can be 2D game like H3 for many fans so amazing even now. Excellent gameplay is important but graphics definitely too, at least for me.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 11, 2015 03:58 PM |
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Meanwhile, some people, like me, cannot understand why you like a Heroes game with 3D graphics. This is one of the things that put me away since H5. I do prefer 2D for this sort of game.
I had and still have a strong resistance against some 3D conversions, such as those who gave birth to games such as AoE 3, H5, MM9 etc. As Vitirr points out, I'm also one that prefer H2's graphics above all. Given it's a matter of feeling, something was lost to me when these games stepped into 3D realms.
Alas, even so, back then we would identify a Heroes game only by glancing at it. After H5, one can also identify it in this Ubi era. I believe both situations explain by themselves that either them have their own visual identities, either when things were given by feelings or by visuals.
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"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 11, 2015 04:07 PM |
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Antalyan said:
It depends on which game you started with. I started playing Heroes with H2 and I thought the graphics had been fine that time. However, then I replaced it by H5 and immdiately, I got used to 3D graphics so much that I am not able to play any older (2D) Heroes since I played H5 for the first time.
So, it depends on your preferences and nostalgia (as you say). You cannot simply say "this game is ugly" about some old games, because the development is very quick and the game becomes old and in your opinion "ugly" very soon. Nevertheless, I cannot understand how can be 2D game like H3 for many fans so amazing even now. Excellent gameplay is important but graphics definitely too, at least for me.
But still, I think to a certain degree the 2D visuals can be evaluated at an objective level factoring in for example the resolution and number of available colors (so the technological level of the time). Given this, Homm3 is not too appealing. Just look on some of the units: they look like a 10 year old kid has drawn them. Or the tactical combat map. Quite awkward. Whereas eg.: civ 1 is much more proficient. Look at the phalanx. You can’t do a better phalanx in a 8X8 resolution.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
