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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 18, 2015 12:01 AM |
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natalka said:
but in reality all those games have flaws just like heroes 7. Don`t understand why you can`t live with them.
So just because previous Heroes games had flaws, it's okay to have them in Heroes 7 and not try to get them changed while it's still the active game?
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 12:11 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Right. It's stone-paper-scissors on a somewhat advanced level, which means the in-between-notes are missing. There shouldn't be hero setups decided right away - I mean, it makes playing a mere execution of a choice made at turn 0.
However - let me repeat that I don't want spoil anyone's fun here. I was just curious.
I m disapointed here JJ. Maybe you spoiled me but I was used to good game analysis and less rethoric. I mean come on , every well design game will use the play/counterplay mechanics. And the more dimension there is to this game , the more mind game , which are the essence of the fun pre-stratgic metagame. Unless you are paying checkers or maybe 'go' and even there you can make an argument that some strats counter others.
SO yeah we can ignore the many dimensions in the play/counterplay metagame and reduce it to three dimensional rock-paper-scisors but that's also neglecting the mind game and the fun of it.
Actually I'm really trying to find a turn based or a RTS where play/counterplay isn't the main driving mechanics... The only alternative is to have a strategy that wins all the time and that's the very definition of OP. You are supposed to mindgame your opponent if you can , he is suppose to scout you to see what you are doing and react , but if you know what he knows , you might react to the natural counter and so on ....
I'm sorry but I reallllllly think that Natalka is right there...
The_green_drag said:
That's a good example of how the skills have way too much an impact on the game. Mind games have no room in heroes.
OK now I'm scared. Did I somehow ended up in the twilight zone ?
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 06:35 AM |
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Maurice said:
natalka said:
but in reality all those games have flaws just like heroes 7. Don`t understand why you can`t live with them.
So just because previous Heroes games had flaws, it's okay to have them in Heroes 7 and not try to get them changed while it's still the active game?
No, but if you could play and enjoy previous heroes games with such flaws,you can enjoy this game too. And we are all trying to change the flaws here.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 18, 2015 06:57 AM |
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Maurice said:
natalka said:
but in reality all those games have flaws just like heroes 7. Don`t understand why you can`t live with them.
So just because previous Heroes games had flaws, it's okay to have them in Heroes 7 and not try to get them changed while it's still the active game?
I think I am the one of the most proactive heroes 7 fans trying to change the game, adding new content, constantly harassing gomaki to fix the editor 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 08:54 AM |
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Karanshade said:
JollyJoker said:
Right. It's stone-paper-scissors on a somewhat advanced level, which means the in-between-notes are missing. There shouldn't be hero setups decided right away - I mean, it makes playing a mere execution of a choice made at turn 0.
However - let me repeat that I don't want spoil anyone's fun here. I was just curious.
I m disapointed here JJ. Maybe you spoiled me but I was used to good game analysis and less rethoric. I mean come on , every well design game will use the play/counterplay mechanics. And the more dimension there is to this game , the more mind game , which are the essence of the fun pre-stratgic metagame. Unless you are paying checkers or maybe 'go' and even there you can make an argument that some strats counter others.
The rhetorics are all yours, because the main argument here isn't that it's stone-paper-scissors, but that it's all over in turn 0, after you've picked your main hero, and that's because no skill variations are possible. You may be able to pick between 6 different hero classes of a faction, but once you do that, it pretty much follows the obvious lines, the important things being, for example, whether you can get a good secondary with a few governor and economics abilities for a good boost.
Of course - there is in fact a surprise moment that's totally random: some factions can make quite good use of other faction's heroes, others, however, canNOT. Or, more precise, depending on the faction you play, you may find a hero of a different faction that will allow a good performance.
In fact, while you can OF COURSE play a lot of mind games with yourself - there shouldn't be a way to win the game with it. Sure, every game that has sufficiently different "factions" will see some with a clear advantage for one side - but in any MP game you would avoid those that may end up inferior.
Ask yourself a question: why undergo the boredom to play 50 turns of a game that was decided when it started? Which means, good game design must AVOID that it comes to that. Yes, there should be play and counter-play - but at all stages, not just as a mind game.
Take for contrast AoW3. There are 63 race/class combinations you can pick, all playing differently. There are some you'd say aren't that great for one side, although there aren't really hopeless cases, I think - but you can easily avoid those, by simply avoiding a couple of them. For example, Goblin Rogue is a bit of a challenging task against any Necromancer class combo, because both Goblins and Rogue class deal a lot with Blight (Poison) damage to which the undead are immune, so that's a bummer - although there are some mitigating factors, because Rogue plays so different from Necro and you may have battling heroes from Classes that rock against Necro.
However - you can avoid that altogether when you play MP and pick something "safe" (in the sense that there is no rock-paper-scissor situation , at least not right from the start).
You can PBEM with that game (which, by far, has the best RMG there ever was) - I have currently running 3 games - the game is still supported, being at version 1.704 now, after 18 months and 2 expansions, and the game is superior to HoMM 7 in each and every respect.
Then... well, I have to say it's really a pity that people are so negative, when it comes to HoMM 4; HoMM 4 with the Equilibris patch is quite probably the best Heroes Multiplayer experience you can have. The best map editor of the series with the biggest amount of different map objects plus extremely customizable faction armies with regular access to a lot of very different heroes, magics and skills... And in a duel mp game 1 vs 1 the weakish AI doesn't matter much (and in fact the active - that is, the player AI - AI is so weak only because you can do so much on the battlefield).
With an RMG... - but there we are are in the "if" region. The issue at hand is HoMM 7. I have 13 hours on the HoMM 7 clock, Steam tells me, most of which I did in the service of looking up things for my work. I have a lot of games on my gaming rig - and there is simply no good reason to fire up HoMM 7. The main reason is probably ... that the game could be so much better. Just look at the town building screens - look at them and tell me, the way they are set up does not cry for more creatures: there just aren't enough creatures to build! Positively spoken, there should be more alternatives and one or 2 more creature levels (the 2 relatively equal weaker core and Elite builds could be alternative builds, with two more creatures to build instead, filling the "gaps" between good/weak elite, and the way map size and speed compares there could be one over champion, the actual champion at -150 HP). Negatively spoken - there are too many filler buildings in an otherwise too blown-up town screen.
And that's just ONE point.
Playing HoMM 7 HURTS more than everything else, because it's such a waste of opportunity.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 18, 2015 10:05 AM |
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natalka said:
I think I am the one of the most proactive heroes 7 fans trying to change the game, adding new content, constantly harassing gomaki to fix the editor
I know you are (and thanks for holding that torch and pitchfork  ), it was just that the remark in question struck me as odd  .
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted November 18, 2015 10:31 AM |
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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted November 18, 2015 10:36 AM |
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Those 2 elementals will also be able to be summoned with the spell 'Summon Elemental' for anyone curious. I'm still brainstorming a good way of making that spell more strategical with out straight up previewing what one you get.
Apart from that Balance, editor, multiplayer and slowly new content will be the meat of our next few patches so it's a good time to either PM me or post in the balance/change thread which I monitor all day to start pushing ideas and i'll see what can be pushed.
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natalka
Supreme Hero
Bad-mannered
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posted November 18, 2015 10:44 AM |
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gomaki, I see heroes are getting in the right direction. I hope you fix hero specializations from already present heroes too. Particularly I like lucretia, ivor(though very likely to turn up imba hero), naadir.
I suppose that +1 ghost from naadir stays after the battle.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted November 18, 2015 10:46 AM |
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gomaki said:
Those 2 elementals will also be able to be summoned with the spell 'Summon Elemental' for anyone curious. I'm still brainstorming a good way of making that spell more strategical with out straight up previewing what one you get.
Apart from that Balance, editor, multiplayer and slowly new content will be the meat of our next few patches so it's a good time to either PM me or post in the balance/change thread which I monitor all day to start pushing ideas and i'll see what can be pushed.
But why use the Blazing Glory from H6 as the Light Elemental instead of the...Light Elemental from H6? I know, it has the same model, but the LE is glowy white instead of yellow.
So, all the neutrals are copypasted (again). Was it ever an idea to rework/reskin them like the Water Elemental?
It's good to see new heroes, by the way. Some new specializations...but still mostly fixed. What you should discuss with the team is how to implement specializations like "+x attack and defense for Creature A per 2 levels of the hero", as we saw in H3/H5.
H5 specializations
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 18, 2015 11:06 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 11:09, 18 Nov 2015.
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is there a single new asset there at all besides the maps, not only are the creatures all copy pasted in from Heroes 6 but also the heroes, their art and identities are almost 100% ripped from previous games,
on top of which most of the bios are cribbed too reusing old text going as far back as Heroes 5 and even Heroes 3 lol
it's clever that they're careful to call the maps "new" but the heroes and creatures "additional", bravo lol
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Karanshade
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 11:29 AM |
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Now that’s an answer I can live with, at least I get to understand your position. Thx for posting. Let's see...
JollyJoker said:
The rhetorics are all yours, because the main argument here isn't that it's stone-paper-scissors, but that it's all over in turn 0,
OK here I am not convinced, except maybe if you go dark magic rogue vs a defensive might necro. I'm not stating that this 'day 0 decision factor' does not exist. I just don't see it. I'm trying tho. Maybe go in detail? they are like four skill template per factions something like this, with 6 factions...that s 24 templates with some close to one an another. That’s still quite some combination to go through but at least gimme some instances of matchup that are decided. (And it might just be a balancing issue btw, something tweakable).
JollyJoker said:
Take for contrast AoW3. There are 63 race/class combinations you can pick, all playing differently. There are some you'd say aren't that great for one side, although there aren't really hopeless cases, I think - but you can easily avoid those, by simply avoiding a couple of them. For example, Goblin Rogue is a bit of a challenging task against any Necromancer class combo, because both Goblins and Rogue class deal a lot with Blight (Poison) damage to which the undead are immune, so that's a bummer - although there are some mitigating factors, because Rogue plays so different from Necro and you may have battling heroes from Classes that rock against Necro.
However - you can avoid that altogether when you play MP and pick something "safe" (in the sense that there is no rock-paper-scissor situation, at least not right from the start).
AoW3, this game is a mystery to me. It has everything I like and yet when I play it, I get bored. I truly don't know why.... even graphics are quite encouraging, castle siege is fun ...I can only judge on Vanilla tough. I did play the game, I got a few hundred hours on the game. Maybe I should give it another go, from what I grasp from your post, it has only improved in two years.
That being said, AoW3 at release and even after a few patch, was quite imbalanced. The forge-like faction was far better than most, and some combination of class/race could not compete against some others due to the variety of resist and early game pressure. That’s what I remember at least. It might have changed, but that was not one month after release, which is the temporal state of HOMM7 right now.
JollyJoker said:
Then... well, I have to say it's really a pity that people are so negative, when it comes to HoMM 4; HoMM 4 with the Equilibris patch is quite probably the best Heroes Multiplayer experience you can have. The best map editor of the series with the biggest amount of different map objects plus extremely customizable faction armies with regular access to a lot of very different heroes, magics and skills... And in a duel mp game 1 vs 1 the weakish AI doesn't matter much (and in fact the active - that is, the player AI - AI is so weak only because you can do so much on the battlefield).
I quite enjoyed Equilibris too.
JollyJoker said:
I have 13 hours on the HoMM 7 clock
Not to doubt your mind, but that’s not a lot to make an analysis of a TBS…
JollyJoker said:
Playing HoMM 7 HURTS more than everything else, because it's such a waste of opportunity.
Al ’right, that’s your opinion, I can only respect it. I hope they improve the game enough for you to discard this feeling.
Coming back to your original point, maybe we should try to find out which ‘duels’ are decided from day 0, if that’s the case, that would help the balance team a lot
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gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
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posted November 18, 2015 11:35 AM |
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Newer More unique hero Specializations are 100% in the works, for existing and new heroes. It's just a matter of time, design and what kind of route we want to go. But this is something you can expect to see changed slowly, just like now a couple of those heroes have new things, we'll keep with that path for sure.
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Hermes
Famous Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 11:43 AM |
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Edited by Hermes at 11:45, 18 Nov 2015.
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gomaki said:
Newer More unique hero Specializations are 100% in the works, for existing and new heroes. It's just a matter of time, design and what kind of route we want to go. But this is something you can expect to see changed slowly, just like now a couple of those heroes have new things, we'll keep with that path for sure.
Amazing news today, new content for free - take my hat to you, you guys deserve it.
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Dies_Irae
Supreme Hero
with the perfect plan
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posted November 18, 2015 11:53 AM |
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gomaki said:
Newer More unique hero Specializations are 100% in the works, for existing and new heroes. It's just a matter of time, design and what kind of route we want to go. But this is something you can expect to see changed slowly, just like now a couple of those heroes have new things, we'll keep with that path for sure.
Good to know
Specializations that become more powerful or trigger more often depending on hero level is something you should really talk about. That makes leveling up your hero a valuable part of the game and should coincide with extending or removing the level cap. This goes for creature ATK/DEF boost, spell damage, basically anything that has a number in the game.
A hero specializing in Fire Magic (for example) could either get a free Fire Bolt with base damage +x% per 3 levels, or deal Fire Damage to a random enemy stack at the start of combat, again base damage +x% per 3 levels. Obviously, the effect cannot target creatures immune to either Fire Magic, or all Magic. Something like that, makes them unique and powerful over time. If it's a fixed number, it is rather useless in end-game situations due to higher stack sizes. As the game progresses, stacks grow, so should the Hero .
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 12:20 PM |
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@ Karanshade
Keep in mind I've been playing the game in Beta and before as well, so I got more under my belt than the 13 hours - also I've played the brand virtually thousands and thousands of hours over thelast 20 years - plus Disciples, AoW and some others as well...Karanshade said:
JollyJoker said:
it's all over in turn 0,
OK here I am not convinced...
It looks like you'd play a lot, so you may have a better grasp on what works and what not, but I do think that your main hero is extremely limited by
1) their GM abilities
2) their magic (G)M abilities (and therefore spells)
3) their factional army
If you pick a specific hero class, playing a faction, it is pretty much clear how such a hero will look like level 15, 20, 25 or 30 - there aren't too many variations possible, and you can put them against each other and test them (Natalka has done that extensively, I think). While that is a matter of balancing everything, even if it gets balanced, it's impossible to make each of the 6 hero classes a faction comes with equally powerful - that wouldn't make much sense. What you'd want, for example, is a way to make up for skill deficits with spells - for example, a hero being defensively strong in terms of skills and stats may want to get Fire Magic in order to cast Inner Fire to boost the attack. However, Fire Magic is the realm of the offensive hero.
Personally - I simply don't want to play with these patterned heroes that cannot develop how I might like them to, depending on the needs of the situation.
JollyJoker said:
Take for contrast AoW3...
AoW3, this game is a mystery to me. It has everything I like and yet when I play it, I get bored. I truly don't know why.... even graphics are quite encouraging, castle siege is fun ...I can only judge on Vanilla tough. I did play the game, I got a few hundred hours on the game. Maybe I should give it another go, from what I grasp from your post, it has only improved in two years.
That being said, AoW3 at release and even after a few patch, was quite imbalanced. The forge-like faction was far better than most, and some combination of class/race could not compete against some others due to the variety of resist and early game pressure. That’s what I remember at least. It might have changed, but that was not one month after release, which is the temporal state of HOMM7 right now.
I can offer you to play a PBEM game (PM me about details).
Anyway, the main focus, developing the game further was working out more differences between RACES, and that means that race has become a more important factor, even for class units (for example, Drac class units have Fire-Bomb when they have a ranged attack, and so on). Since this is HoMM, we can continue discussion about that via PM, if you like.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted November 18, 2015 12:27 PM |
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gomaki said:
Those 2 elementals will also be able to be summoned with the spell 'Summon Elemental' for anyone curious. I'm still brainstorming a good way of making that spell more strategical with out straight up previewing what one you get.
There is none. The caster should be able to see what will be summoned AFTER he clicks the spell so that he knows where to place the summon and plan ahead his next move. If not, the spell will remain situational or a total gamble which is not the way to go for pvp.
Same with regeneration that is almost fine for creeping and almost entirely useless for pvp. The spells are few and we should be encouraged to cast as many of them as possible, not further limit our options to the 'good' spells. H7 needs more replayability and this is one way to boost it, improve the situational or weak spells.
Same for warmachines, particularly the first aid one. Add more viable options and skill combinations and the game can shine. Given the nature of the manual-focused skill system, that should have been the idea in the first place.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 12:48 PM |
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"but that it's all over in turn 0, after you've picked your main hero"
OK, lets assume this is a true statement. But then is it because the Hero itself or because of the faction or the class of Heroes in general? Or anything else? So I mean, would simply adding more Heroes result in more "distinct but deterministic" paths or you need more factions, classes, magic schools etc for this?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 18, 2015 01:02 PM |
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Bitula said:
"but that it's all over in turn 0, after you've picked your main hero"
OK, lets assume this is a true statement. But then is it because the Hero itself or because of the faction or the class of Heroes in general? Or anything else?
Isn't the answer rather obvious? It's because when you select a specific Hero, you select the skills you're interested in. Yes, you need to develop them, but given the narrow amount of skills, your path has been set for the most part. It's pretty much a given to develop the Faction skill and very likely the (G)M skills.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 18, 2015 01:04 PM |
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It's because of the combination of everything.
For example. Can you really envision a different way to go for Dungeon than Offense? That +1 each for melee/ranged will be a massive damage boost no matter what, and full range for your two shooters will be as well.
In contrast, Dark Magic is what I would call supportive. Reducing Morale of an opposing stack isn't going to get you far in terms of avoiding losses.
Which illustrates the problems here, because Dungeon is Dark, Earth and Prime mostly, which can leave you pretty frustrated when you'd like to call on magic help in avoiding losses. Which means, that the limitations in magic more or less force you to pick the Offense route - that's at least my take on it.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
