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icefield
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 19, 2015 09:06 PM |
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gomaki said:
So far some good suggestions regarding the skill wheel. It's on my list for things to change for future support patches.
My thinking is that it is possible to change the core of the current skill wheel by doing things like, opening up more skills (all of them with rules like JJ has stated for example) I like that Idea, but visually I would have to see how it's handled. Remember ideas arn't just about the code, we need to think about how the GUI will look, then what sort of functionality we need to go with it. But it's more realistic suggestion than saying 'just scrap the entire thing and do it again'
That's good news. That this possibility is even considered.
Why's there a problem with the GUI? The non-starting skills would be left grayed out initially, and filled in whenever a new skill is picked at level-up. Just like it was in previous games.
The non-random option might require some list for skill pick to select from, but in the random case, I don't see new GUI elements. Maybe, there should be info about whether an offered skill pick can be leveled up to Expert, Master, GM if this is capped for a faction.
That said, if the level-30 limit is eventually dropped, there could be (say, at level 20 or 25) a new skillwheel being shown with some more sectors and mastery options. Slightly smaller icons.
Mapmakers might get an option to (partially) fix hero skills again as they are fixed now. Or not.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2015 10:03 PM |
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@ Gomaki
You may not know it, since I think you wasn't there at the time - but I already suggested that way to alter the skill wheels nearly a year ago in the VIP forum - a day after we were first, well, offended, is the word that comes to mind, since it's the crappiest new feature a heroes game has ever seen, with the first presentation in the Xmas build..
Then, I suggested an empty skill wheel, except for the "fixtures" of a class, Racial basic GM plus special, with a drop down menu coming up when clicking on an empty NOVICE skill which would show all allowed skills. You could then pick one, and then the empty skill slot would fill.
THEN I didn't know that having Offense and Defense both as GM would be totally OP, so what I suggested was defining classes by the number of min/max might/magic/neutral (Explorer, Luck, Economy, Diplomacy) skills were allowed/needed, plus maybe specific info with a view on limitations in terms of Expert, Master and GM skill picks (say, Orc Magic would be allowed 1 Magic GM skill only).
With the current situation things would be a little more complicated, but still the same.
So - the idea is well known. I have no idea what's happening in the VIP lounge, since I don't have access anymore - but after everything we said has been more or less ignored, it's sounding like a bad joke when these things are suddenly called "interesting".
They could have been in the game already - so understand that I'm extremely sceptical here.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2015 10:14 PM |
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natalka said:
You mix having 3 heroes from start with expert chaining. Even newbie players would like to have 1 hero to explore and 1 close to gather what the main has freed. Heck that was my gameplay first times I ever touched heroes when I was a complete noob.
That was issue 1 , what do u think about having 5 heroes who all have armies?
Everything you would like to have must be bought or fought for.
Imo, the ideal starting situation is that you get 1 hero for free plus gold and ressources to build every possible building plus everything that may result from it: creatures, a hero, a war machine, (a spell book (!)).
That also means that
1) Hall of Heroes plus FIRST hero
2) potential War Machine building + War Machine
3) Mage Guild (plus spell book for Might hero)
4) Immediately buildable creature dwelling plus creatures
should cost the same and be roughly equally powerful.
That IN TURN means, that a hero should come with significantly less troops, than your day 1 creature dwelling build would give you.
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Aionb
Known Hero
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posted November 19, 2015 10:51 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
So - the idea is well known. ... - but after everything we said has been more or less ignored, it's sounding like a bad joke when these things are suddenly called "interesting".
All I can say is an ugly, fat WTF?!?
Things are turning rather surrealistic.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 19, 2015 10:51 PM |
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Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
Ah, sure H7 invented the RP element for Heroes games.
I think, you don't really know what this is all about.
H5 was not the sort where you create BIO for a Hero. They have their own BIO. It’s I guess the same in H7. And I can compare only against H5. And from this point of view sure, H7 has much more RP elements: since it does not allow that much deviation from a role, like H5 did and it has eg.: classes. Which I think is a positive change.
No, it doesn't, because it's not Role-PLAYING. You don't play, you execute something predetermined for you.
Heroes 4 introduced Hero classes - the Heroes game that BY FAR has the most RP elements of them all (not the most unimportant being the fact that Heroes were ON the battlefield).
In H4 you have primary and Secondary skills. (skills and abilities).
You have 9 (primary) skills with 5 levels each and each skill has 3 sub-skills (secondaries/abilities), also with 5 levels each. Which means, you can waste TWENTY skill points on each Primary, and since a hero has 5 slots you have actually A HUNDRED possible level-ups (imagine that: no level caps in campaigns!).
For example, take the skill DEATH MAGIC. This skill allows to learn Death Magic spells (levels 1-5; HoMM 4 has TONS of spells); there is a sub-skill that gives you Mana, a sub-skill that makes Death spells more effective, and a Necro sub-skill that lets you raise Skels, Ghosts or Vampires, depending on the skill level.
ALL higher levels have prerequisites that amount to a sideways build-up (you can't storm to Level 5 Death Magic, caled Gramdmaster, by the way).
Now - where are tthe classes?
A Class is defined by the first two primary skills a hero spends at least TWO level-ups in. Since there are 9 primary skills there are 36 different classes - the same number the 6 faction game H4 and the 6 faction game H7 share.
The difference is, I pick a basic hero - for example an ARCHER, which is the basic MIGHT hero of the NATURE faction who starts with COMBAT (which is adding to the Hero's PERSONAL defense), and ARCHERY which is a sub-skill of Combat, giving the hero a ranged attack with a certain strength, I can develop to:
1) With Death Magic the Archer becomes an ASSASSIN; this adds +3 speed (BF) and movement(AM)
2) With Order Magic the Artcher becomes a BATTLE MAGE; the Battle Mage gets Magic Fist, and the effect of that spell and Ice Bolt is increased by 20%.
3) With Nature Magic an Archer becomes a BEASTMASTER; they get +20% on Summon Wolf spell.
4) With Chaos Magic an Archer becomes a FIREGUARD; they are immune against Fire spells and suffer only half damage from creatures with a fire-based attack.
5) With Tactics (the skill that boosts creature stats) you become a GENERAL, which gives your creatures +1 Morale (which is more worth than in H7).
6) With Life Magic you become a PALADIN; they get 50% resistance against Death Magic and +50% melee and ranged defense (which is different in H4) against Death-aligned opponents (that is, undead and demons).
7) With Scouting you become a RANGER and get +5 Ranged attack (plus ranged ability if you started as a Thief (who starts with Scouting).
8) Lastly, with Nobility (an Economy skill) you become a WARLORD and get +5 Melee attack.
THAT is role-playing - it's all about how YOU play the game.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted November 19, 2015 11:45 PM |
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Edited by verriker at 23:47, 19 Nov 2015.
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JollyJoker said:
So - the idea is well known. I have no idea what's happening in the VIP lounge, since I don't have access anymore - but after everything we said has been more or less ignored, it's sounding like a bad joke when these things are suddenly called "interesting".
hey that's good to hear you followed Dalai, Pitsu, Cepheus etc leaving in protest man, it might not have much impact immediately but I think it says a lot and is the right choice of principle and integrity lol
(no offence to the VIP fans who will not leave though, it's not your fault the Erwin Alliance doesn't listen lol)
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 01:25 AM |
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Can someone like, post the Lucretia artwork. Because i'm just not dowloading the patch today since #venezuelaninternetspeed.
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PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
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posted November 20, 2015 03:23 AM |
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 ?
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 04:24 AM |
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I'm talking ofc about the new one, i wanna take a good look at the shoulderguards. The Lucretia art you posted is online because i asked it until Marzhin saw it lol
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 08:11 AM |
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I will repost Ravel's post about ressurection/heal/life drain, because heal today didn't resurrect any of my 29/38 hp blade dancers,when i was healing for 19 health!!!!!!!!
Why on earth is this happening??????
Ravel said:
1. Life drain doesn't appear to proc at all (neither the healing nor resurrection effect) if the attack kills the stack in question. For the Dark Hydra each stack is considered separately - killing 2 stacks and injuring a third will still give life drain, but only on the damage to the third.
2. The second bug is more complicated.
The resurrection effect is calculated separately from the healing effect. Healing will heal the current unit in the stack up to maximum. The resurrection effect will only happen once you've dealt twice your unit's max hp in damage (or equal to it's max hp in potential healing).
This is very different from previous HoMM games. To illustrate, lemme give some examples (assume all the targets attacked are life-drainable - i.e. not constructs/other undead).
Consider a stack of 16/17 Vampires where the top unit in the stack has 90/110 hp. It attacks and deals 200 damage (100 of which would be potential healing). In HoMM 3, this would result in a stack of 17/17 vampires, with the top vampire at 80/110hp. In HoMM 7, the healing is calculated and brings the top vampire to 110/110 hp. The resurrection effect is then calculated and determines that 100 healing is less than the unit's Max HP and therefore not enough to raise 1 from the dead, so the end result is 16/17 vampires with the top vampire at 110/110hp.
Now, this other method doesn't always reduce healing. For example, consider 14/17 Vampires, where the top unit in the stack has 5/110hp. It attacks and deals 230 damage (115 of which would be potential healing). In HoMM 3, this would result in a stack of 15/17 vampires with the top vampire at 10/110. In HoMM 7, the healing is calculated and brings the top vampire to 110/110 hp. The resurrection effect is then calculated and determines that 115 healing is greater than or equal to the unit's Max HP and enough to raise one from the dead, so the end result is 15/17 vampires with the top vampire at 110/110.
I've done a lot of testing recently, and nothing I've found contradicts these two bugs/behaviors.
The easiest way to see the resurrection effect, is that you'll never see a unit resurrect when you deal LESS than twice your unit's max HP in damage (assuming at least one unit is missing from the stack).
From what I can tell, this healing/resurrection behavior also applies on other resurrection effects like the Heal spell.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 09:59 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
1) With Death Magic the Archer becomes an ASSASSIN; this adds +3 speed (BF) and movement(AM)
2) With Order Magic the Artcher becomes a BATTLE MAGE; the Battle Mage gets Magic Fist, and the effect of that spell and Ice Bolt is increased by 20%.
So then what is the BIO for this hero? A young unknown archer (noob) who yet didn't decide whether he'll be a battle mage or an assassin? What is his BIO, I am just curious. Anyway, I don't want to restart this argument about RP versus CRP, but I'm talking about CRP which is well defined classes, factions, heroes with meaningful background and history in a meaningful world and setting (OK Ashan isn’t the best choice here…).
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 10:06 AM |
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verriker said:
JollyJoker said:
So - the idea is well known. I have no idea what's happening in the VIP lounge, since I don't have access anymore - but after everything we said has been more or less ignored, it's sounding like a bad joke when these things are suddenly called "interesting".
hey that's good to hear you followed Dalai, Pitsu, Cepheus etc leaving in protest man, it might not have much impact immediately but I think it says a lot and is the right choice of principle and integrity lol
(no offence to the VIP fans who will not leave though, it's not your fault the Erwin Alliance doesn't listen lol)
It's nice of you putting me in the "freedom fighter battalion", but actually, what I intended was a temporary leave in protest until the VIP lounge would be "of use" again, not a permanent one, and actually there was some kind of assurance they would work on a solution in reaction of it (whatever that meant), but someone decided to lock me out of the lounge without further notice.
I did think it was bad style, but from their point of view I probably deserved it. Playing HoMM 7 on the VIP lounge map, after playing it on V and VI as well, this time around I did not pick the Diplomacy skill for my hero, if you get my drift...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted November 20, 2015 10:24 AM |
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Bitula said:
So then what is the BIO for this hero? A young unknown archer (noob) who yet didn't decide whether he'll be a battle mage or an assassin? What is his BIO, I am just curious.
So you're telling me that you consider it more important that a Hero has a bit of flavor text that matches his skills, than the gameplay that follows from the skill mechanics? 
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 11:00 AM |
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Bitula said:
JollyJoker said:
1) With Death Magic the Archer becomes an ASSASSIN; this adds +3 speed (BF) and movement(AM)
2) With Order Magic the Artcher becomes a BATTLE MAGE; the Battle Mage gets Magic Fist, and the effect of that spell and Ice Bolt is increased by 20%.
So then what is the BIO for this hero? A young unknown archer (noob) who yet didn't decide whether he'll be a battle mage or an assassin? What is his BIO, I am just curious. Anyway, I don't want to restart this argument about RP versus CRP, but I'm talking about CRP which is well defined classes, factions, heroes with meaningful background and history in a meaningful world and setting (OK Ashan isn’t the best choice here…).
Of course there is a Bio for every hero, but it's a bio that deals with Origin and why the guy became an ARCHER (not an archer). Archer is a Class as well, but a simple class (as is for example "Thief"), simple Classes are defined by the combination of starting primary and secondary skill.
So, you pick an ARCHER, say, Ivor, who (fictionally) already as a child excelled in bow-shooting blablabla. When you get him to play YOU write his Bio further, since you can develop him to one of nine advanced Classes. Note that some skills are more likely to appear than others - becoming a General, for example, is pretty likely, since you want a Tactics hero, but you could make him everything (probably depending on what you play - Archers are the might hero of Nature town, so with Nature town, may also go for Nature Magic, Chaos Magic or Life Magic, so Beastmaster, Fireguard or Paladin would be quite possible either.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 12:56 PM |
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Maurice said:
Bitula said:
So then what is the BIO for this hero? A young unknown archer (noob) who yet didn't decide whether he'll be a battle mage or an assassin? What is his BIO, I am just curious.
So you're telling me that you consider it more important that a Hero has a bit of flavor text that matches his skills, than the gameplay that follows from the skill mechanics?
No I would just balance these two with probably more emphasis on mechanics. But not so radically so it would invalidate specific hero backgrounds/class descriptions/faction descriptions and visuals/flavors.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 01:03 PM |
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JollyJoker said:
So then what is the BIO for this hero? A young unknown archer (noob) who yet didn't decide whether he'll be a battle mage or an assassin? What is his BIO, I am just curious. Anyway, I don't want to restart this argument about RP versus CRP, but I'm talking about CRP which is well defined classes, factions, heroes with meaningful background and history in a meaningful world and setting (OK Ashan isn’t the best choice here…).
Of course there is a Bio for every hero, but it's a bio that deals with Origin and why the guy became an ARCHER (not an archer). Archer is a Class as well, but a simple class (as is for example "Thief"), simple Classes are defined by the combination of starting primary and secondary skill.
So, you pick an ARCHER, say, Ivor, who (fictionally) already as a child excelled in bow-shooting blablabla. When you get him to play YOU write his Bio further, since you can develop him to one of nine advanced Classes. Note that some skills are more likely to appear than others - becoming a General, for example, is pretty likely, since you want a Tactics hero, but you could make him everything (probably depending on what you play - Archers are the might hero of Nature town, so with Nature town, may also go for Nature Magic, Chaos Magic or Life Magic, so Beastmaster, Fireguard or Paladin would be quite possible either.
For me H5 was not a typical RPG where you grow from noob adventurer to a Hero. For me they were Hero-s from the beginning, at least that is how I perceived them. Commanders of armies, legions etc. As was in their BIO. And it was quite frustrating when my fragile Academy Mage could choose only from Defence and Attack at high level. This random wheel was sometimes completely immersion breaking.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted November 20, 2015 01:18 PM |
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Aww 
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 04:04 PM |
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Edited by ChrisD1 at 16:05, 20 Nov 2015.
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RING THE ALARM! GAME BREAKING BUG FOUND!!!
and i was wondering about the mandatory hotfix and what it would fix!!
so after loading a game, sometimes your skillwheel gets messed up!!!
I took a pic (again I don't know why my prntscrn button doesn't work)
so some skills that you have learned just disappear and get greyed out and you need to learn them again! even if you have progressed on a higher rank!!! this is the second time this is happening. the first time I thought it was because of an old save.
In the pic I have master metamagic and the perks on each rank are greyed out and i have to select a perk from the novice rank. although I had already learned it!
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OmegaDestroyer
Hero of Order
Fox or Chicken?
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posted November 20, 2015 04:51 PM |
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Bitula said:
Sligneris said:
OmegaDestroyer said:
Why now? Why are you looking at balancing now, months after release?
Because no one can change the past.
Exactly! Some simply fail to understand that it is not the past which needs to be fixed, but the game. This is not a moral issue. Seriously, I find this attitude of “you didn’t listen to us in the past, so now by definition this game cannot be good whatever you do in the future” childish.
I am not addressing it as a moral issue and find the notion that morality would even be brought up into this discussion absurd.
My concern is why the game was not thoroughly tested in first place? Why release a shoddy product and then say "bare with us, we'll make it better!"? Why not put the work and effort into making a great product in the first place?
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The giant has awakened
You drink my blood and drown
Wrath and raving I will not stop
You'll never take me down
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted November 20, 2015 05:04 PM |
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OmegaDestroyer said:
My concern is why the game was not thoroughly tested in first place? Why release a shoddy product and then say "bare with us, we'll make it better!"? Why not put the work and effort into making a great product in the first place?
the same reason wars happen, people die and ubisoft sucks.
can we focus on the game breaking bug now?
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
