|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
posted January 25, 2016 10:54 PM |
|
Edited by Stevie at 22:54, 25 Jan 2016.
|
Campaigns have proven themselves a destructive redundancy. The lore they set is restrictive towards design and the story they tell does not make up for it. So much time and money that could be used where it matters gets wasted on a dead end like this.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 12:06 AM |
|
|
vitirr said:
Fans finding campaings essential to a Heroes game... no doubt where the franchise started to get lost.
Make a game for the campaigns and you'll get a good campaign at beast. Make a game for the skirmish and you'll get a good game for which you can make a good campaign.
Incredible how first Heroes games had campaigns that were nothing but a bunch of maps put together, and yet are the best of the franchise because you were supposed to PLAY a Heroes map there, not read an interactive story.
I agree. But I haven't found many people that put campaigns on their first priority list, rather than scenarios.
I am more convinced the MM team just sponsored campaigns too much and has made a focus on it more than the actual scenarios themselves (hence the lack of single scenario maps in H6, as well as a lot of lore articles).
Just saying that campaigns have their importance, but the MM team shouldn't forget the scenarios hold a great deal of importance for re-playability (and multiplayer as well).
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 02:11 AM |
|
|
Stevie said:
Campaigns have proven themselves a destructive redundancy. The lore they set is restrictive towards design and the story they tell does not make up for it. So much time and money that could be used where it matters gets wasted on a dead end like this.
A major issue with the lore and storytelling is the warped chronology. Heroes V, despite coming first, is last in the chronology, meaning all games set before it need to lead up to it, and Heroes VII is set between VI and V, meaning it has TWO titles it needs to account for, doubling the amount of restrictions.
Not helping matters further is how the campaigns and scenarios tend to not even exist in the same timeframe as the setting proper. All the fluff lore for units and all the art assets heavily suggest that the timeframe for H7 is supposed to be around Ivan's rise to power... but the campaigns are all over the place, such as the original rebellion of the orcs and beastmen from the Seven Cities, before even H6 is set.
In summary, a huge factor is the lore's restrictiveness is how the narrative can't SIT STILL for once! Let alone ADVANCE the timeline into new ground - i.e. after Heroes V.
|
|
StevenAus
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 08:24 AM |
|
|
Hi Quantomas,
The VCMI team encountered Brian Kemper, an artist from H3 and H4, when they were talking about secondary skill icons. You might want to get in touch with him and other members of the old team. As he says here:
http://forum.vcmi.eu/viewtopic.php?t=489&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=45
"I was planning on reuniting the original Heroes team members to recreate a game in the same style as the original games but haven't done so.
thanks,
Brian"
AFAIK, he is still available. One of his main websites, where he can be contacted, is:
http://brianscottkemper.prosite.com/
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 08:32 AM |
|
Edited by Elvin at 08:32, 26 Jan 2016.
|
Kimarous said:
Stevie said:
Campaigns have proven themselves a destructive redundancy. The lore they set is restrictive towards design and the story they tell does not make up for it. So much time and money that could be used where it matters gets wasted on a dead end like this.
A major issue with the lore and storytelling is the warped chronology. Heroes V, despite coming first, is last in the chronology, meaning all games set before it need to lead up to it, and Heroes VII is set between VI and V, meaning it has TWO titles it needs to account for, doubling the amount of restrictions.
Not helping matters further is how the campaigns and scenarios tend to not even exist in the same timeframe as the setting proper. All the fluff lore for units and all the art assets heavily suggest that the timeframe for H7 is supposed to be around Ivan's rise to power... but the campaigns are all over the place, such as the original rebellion of the orcs and beastmen from the Seven Cities, before even H6 is set.
In summary, a huge factor is the lore's restrictiveness is how the narrative can't SIT STILL for once! Let alone ADVANCE the timeline into new ground - i.e. after Heroes V.
Or screw timelines and just design classic units that can fit anywhere like the old games did  People want to create their own stories, whether as a lotr-inspired map or something original. They don't freaking care about Ashan ornaments, lore and factions! Lore should be a general background that can give you a better context for the story. Ashan instead shoves it down your throat and limits the creative freedom in designing lineups or outright forbids certain factions from seeing the light of day. Spiders never were the problem. The problem was that you get them all over the freaking place. As tattoos on the forehead. As warmachines. In skills. As armour ornaments. Spider legs growing out of the lich's back. Spider ornaments in every unit. Spider legs growing out of the freaking town. And then you also get a spider unit because we had not had enough spiders already. There are plenty of examples, this being a glaring one. Ashan has the subtlety and grace of a charging elephant and it is doing everyone a disservice. It is next to impossible to take seriously when it tries so hard, it ends up being ridiculous. Usually not the good kind of ridiculous 
What could be done instead:
- Tone down the bling. Esp spikes and religious symbols.
- Distinguish units from past heroes or other games but.. keep it simple. They should be generic enough to fit into any story.
- Be subtle about references. The human namtaru form evokes a spidery visage without actually being a spider. Add some moonsilk on a unit?
- Do not radically change fan favourites, in form or gameplay!
- If there are chronological symbols or elements that should be displayed on a unit, how about making a classic original and just mod its appearance like fans do?
- Evolution is always good, innovation is questionable. Sometimes downright bad, if the direction does not agree with the majority of fanbase.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
|
Articun
Supreme Hero
As i dream, so shall it be!
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 09:51 AM |
|
|
|
Dawn of War had some nice idea about that. It gave you the base unit that could fit anywhere but then you could change the symbol/s and colors on it to make it yours or choose predefined presets to play as that race sub-FACTIONS. That is something that i think could be done with heroes. It is a fact that bling will not go down since it is in design but the units themselves could be made to have variations in colors. Now if the devs could be so kind as to give us also different skins to make the units look a bit different without changing their animations, that could also prove just fine.
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 10:33 AM |
|
Edited by Kimarous at 10:34, 26 Jan 2016.
|
Elvin said:
Kimarous said:
Stevie said:
Campaigns have proven themselves a destructive redundancy. The lore they set is restrictive towards design and the story they tell does not make up for it. So much time and money that could be used where it matters gets wasted on a dead end like this.
A major issue with the lore and storytelling is the warped chronology. Heroes V, despite coming first, is last in the chronology, meaning all games set before it need to lead up to it, and Heroes VII is set between VI and V, meaning it has TWO titles it needs to account for, doubling the amount of restrictions.
Not helping matters further is how the campaigns and scenarios tend to not even exist in the same timeframe as the setting proper. All the fluff lore for units and all the art assets heavily suggest that the timeframe for H7 is supposed to be around Ivan's rise to power... but the campaigns are all over the place, such as the original rebellion of the orcs and beastmen from the Seven Cities, before even H6 is set.
In summary, a huge factor is the lore's restrictiveness is how the narrative can't SIT STILL for once! Let alone ADVANCE the timeline into new ground - i.e. after Heroes V.
Or screw timelines and just design classic units that can fit anywhere like the old games did People want to create their own stories, whether as a lotr-inspired map or something original. They don't freaking care about Ashan ornaments, lore and factions! Lore should be a general background that can give you a better context for the story. Ashan instead shoves it down your throat and limits the creative freedom in designing lineups or outright forbids certain factions from seeing the light of day. Spiders never were the problem. The problem was that you get them all over the freaking place. As tattoos on the forehead. As warmachines. In skills. As armour ornaments. Spider legs growing out of the lich's back. Spider ornaments in every unit. Spider legs growing out of the freaking town. And then you also get a spider unit because we had not had enough spiders already. There are plenty of examples, this being a glaring one. Ashan has the subtlety and grace of a charging elephant and it is doing everyone a disservice. It is next to impossible to take seriously when it tries so hard, it ends up being ridiculous. Usually not the good kind of ridiculous
What could be done instead:
- Tone down the bling. Esp spikes and religious symbols.
- Distinguish units from past heroes or other games but.. keep it simple. They should be generic enough to fit into any story.
- Be subtle about references. The human namtaru form evokes a spidery visage without actually being a spider. Add some moonsilk on a unit?
- Do not radically change fan favourites, in form or gameplay!
- If there are chronological symbols or elements that should be displayed on a unit, how about making a classic original and just mod its appearance like fans do?
- Evolution is always good, innovation is questionable. Sometimes downright bad, if the direction does not agree with the majority of fanbase.
I kinda know what you mean. One of my favourite games of all time is "Majesty: The Fantasy Kingdom Sim", and while a bunch of background lore exists, most of it is found specifically in the official strategy guide and mostly just serves as backstory for why some things are as they are.
For example, one scenario has you (as the Sovereign of Ardania) stricken with an illness so bad that only the Sacred Chalice can cure you. Said chalice is also hidden away and guarded by a nasty monster. Who is this monster? To whom is the chalice sacred to? In the moment, doesn't matter - find shiny and bring home before time runs out. If you care, the guide says it's sacred to Lunord (and a major plot coupon in several backstory events) and the beast is Lunord's deformed and abandoned child.
And yet even though a lot is explained in the lore, other stuff is left deliberately unclear. The elves came from across the sea and burned their ships after landing. Where did they come from? Why did they leave? The elves are tight-lipped on the matter. The dryad monsters are said to pursue, quote, "mysterious agendas" - fill in the blanks yourself.
Maybe that's all Heroes needs - enough fluff to explain what's what, but vague enough for peoples' imaginations to run wild. Why are the Thunderbirds serving the Stronghold faction? "They were humiliated by Rognar the Falconer." Who's Rognar? How'd he humiliate them? Smells like an interesting story! Maybe someone will make a scenario for it, if they care enough. 
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 10:36 AM |
|
|
While this has all been said a couple hundred times - to no avail, it seems -, be it in the open forums or in the closed, I find myself in disagreement with the evolution/innovation thing.
H3 is 17 years old, and it's STILL a game that is worked on - developed, you could even say: additional content, code changes, you name it: there has been all the evolution you could ever want with H3 in these last 17 years; first the publisher created something like the ultimate version with SoD, then the fanbase took that and expanded it, even graphically. Even H2 is available as a mod.
So that game is simply finished for any commercial developer.
Then you have H4, 12 years old. There is a big mod for the game, plus, the way the game is set up, it's a closed universe; you cannot really expand it, and an evolution seems difficult; adding more unit slots, for example, will change the already difficult balance, so in my opinion the game isn't suited for evolution. It's more like a one-time spin-off.
Then there is H5, which is nearing 10 years. It's more difficult to work with, due to the clumsy editor, but still the fanbase has worked with the game a lot. Heroes 5.5 is a pretty awesome mod - the game is also great.
And here we have the problem: all the evolution has been done already or IS being done by the fanbase!
So that means invariably and unavoidable, a new HoMM game needs a new "vision" - and, more importantly, one that works.
Heroes Online tested two very interesting features:
1) Limited capacity army slots
2) more pronounced difference between might & magic heroes by giving might an additional troop slot and magic an additional hero action.
1) is ultimately boring in HO, because for this to make sense you need a reason to have continuous creature growth, so the game must be geared to support SEVERAL leading, strong heroes (the way it is in AoW 3) - this in turn also means different/bigger maps with a lot more battles;
2) This is in essence just a different take on the basic situation that a magic hero should cast a powerful spell, while the might hero would support their units with primary stats. You might also say that this is H4: Might comes with a General and a Caster, Magic comes with 2 Casters. With H4 being way more flexible here, allowing each combination of troops and heroes, HO (as H6 and H7) proved that it's not so easy to come up with a twist that makes a new game really worth the while.
Then there is story.
It is not a coincidence that H4 worked so well when it comes to stories, because H4 is a game that focuses on the Heroes. You can play with Conan the Barbarian in Hyperborea, because you can create a Robert E. Howard map AND Conan who may go through a map ALONE. You can also make a map featuring Alexander the Great, leading a big army, supported by monsters from old - whatever it is, you can write their story in H4 and you can play-act that story accurately.
The problem with the Ashan universe is that there should be a lot of games playing there, filling different niches, like Legacy, Heroes, HO, DoC, Dark Messiah and so on, and I suspect Heroes is to produce a new title every 3 years, ending up with 6 out of 9 factions, a couple of changes with regard to the last iteration, slightly different graphics - more like Football Manager, if you know what I mean.
As if the Heroes game had unchangable rules like Football and you just had to change a couple of details.
However, what the franchise needs (would have needed for H7) is THE NEXT PAGE. Ashan after the Dark Messiah - a changed world and a new continent to explore! A new game with new rules, new factions and new creatures that plays and feels like Heroes of Might & Magic.
The problem is, not only did they fail to deliver that, they don't even see the necessity for it, or if they do, no one has the vision to come up with a game concept that is sufficiently different from the others, but still similar enough to be familiar.
If it was easy, everyone would produce superior games.
|
|
gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 10:50 AM |
|
|
Stevie said:
This is probably a DLC mod for skirmish maps, not core game changes.
All these changes are, and will be for the core game. Also someone asked me yesterday about 'player campaigns'. Anything Editor related will also be able to use the changes should someone wish.
|
|
lordgraa
Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 11:32 AM |
|
|
gomaki said:
Stevie said:
This is probably a DLC mod for skirmish maps, not core game changes.
All these changes are, and will be for the core game. Also someone asked me yesterday about 'player campaigns'. Anything Editor related will also be able to use the changes should someone wish.
Do I get it right that "anything editor related" = custom campaign, custom scenario or custom skirmish maps done by fans? So the restrictions are only for "official/already made" campaigns/scenario maps?
If so then I can stay calm and continue working on my scenario/campaign maps
____________
World of Heroes (Czech fansite)
The Shadows Over Ashan (H7 community DLC)
|
|
gomaki
Shaper of Lore
Community Manager, Limbic Ent.
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 11:36 AM |
|
|
lordgraa said:
gomaki said:
Stevie said:
This is probably a DLC mod for skirmish maps, not core game changes.
All these changes are, and will be for the core game. Also someone asked me yesterday about 'player campaigns'. Anything Editor related will also be able to use the changes should someone wish.
Do I get it right that "anything editor related" = custom campaign, custom scenario or custom skirmish maps done by fans? So the restrictions are only for "official/already made" campaigns/scenario maps?
If so then I can stay calm and continue working on my scenario/campaign maps
Yup that would be correct.
Anything Editor is free reign. Only the official 'IPd' Campaign and Scenario map will not have any big future changes. So create away!
|
|
3lion
Known Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 12:35 PM |
|
|
gomaki said:
Anything Editor is free reign. Only the official 'IPd' Campaign and Scenario map will not have any big future changes. So create away!
Oh! I know! I know! You simply made copies of all heroes and you changed their specializations and skills. But you left the original heroes in game as well so they won't break the campaign. And now we have, say, two John Snows Tomases with different specializations: one for the campaign and another one for skirmish. Clever
____________
Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
|
|
Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 03:11 PM |
|
|
JollyJoker said:
If it was easy, everyone would produce superior games.
It might not be easy but I don't think it's that hard either. Not for competent studios like Firaxis, Triumph or Amplitude.
____________
Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
|
|
JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 03:25 PM |
|
|
|
Amounts to the same thing.
|
|
PandaTar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Celestial Heavens Mascot
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 06:52 PM |
|
|
It would be so much good if the game was good. Imagine all of us commenting and sharing experiences of how cool it was, thinking on strategies and whatnot of its blaze of glory. The few negative feedback would be regarding things people could endure in spite of all positive stuff...
Instead ... we ...
*sits and curls up on the far corner*
____________
"Okay. Look. We both said a lot of things that you're going to regret. But I think we can put our differences behind us. For science. You monster."
GlaDOS – Portal 2
|
|
celiton
Hired Hero
Thinking before doing
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 07:22 PM |
|
|
PandaTar said:
It would be so much good if the game was good. Imagine all of us commenting and sharing experiences of how cool it was, thinking on strategies and whatnot of its blaze of glory. The few negative feedback would be regarding things people could endure in spite of all positive stuff...
Instead ... we ...
*sits and curls up on the far corner*
I start to feel sentimental 
|
|
Brukernavn
Hero of Order
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 08:52 PM |
|
|
PandaTar said:
It would be so much good if the game was good. Imagine all of us commenting and sharing experiences of how cool it was, thinking on strategies and whatnot of its blaze of glory. The few negative feedback would be regarding things people could endure in spite of all positive stuff...
Instead ... we ...
*sits and curls up on the far corner*
Since I became apathetic towards the game, I have found much entertainment value in following the development/support of it. It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfolding before your eyes, but I don't know how it really ends, so I keep watching 
|
|
Pawek_13
Supreme Hero
Maths, maths everywhere!
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 09:32 PM |
|
Edited by Pawek_13 at 21:37, 26 Jan 2016.
|
Brukernavn said:
Since I became apathetic towards the game, I have found much entertainment value in following the development/support of it. It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfolding before your eyes, but I don't know how it really ends, so I keep watching
Maybe a Shaekspearean tragedy, not the Greek one? At least we get a chance of good ending... 
|
|
Kimarous
Supreme Hero
|
|
posted January 26, 2016 10:56 PM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
Brukernavn said:
Since I became apathetic towards the game, I have found much entertainment value in following the development/support of it. It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfolding before your eyes, but I don't know how it really ends, so I keep watching
Maybe a Shakespearean tragedy, not the Greek one? At least we get a chance of good ending...
Well, it depends on the outcome people want, and which Greek tragedy you are following. I imagine half the people on this forum would like it play out like Jason and the Argonauts, with Erwan playing the role of Jason, sitting under his once-mighty ship when a rotten beam falls loose and crushes him. 
|
|
Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
|
|
posted January 27, 2016 08:15 AM |
|
|
Pawek_13 said:
It's like watching a Greek tragedy unfolding before your eyes, but I don't know how it really ends, so I keep watching
Maybe a Shaekspearean tragedy, not the Greek one? At least we get a chance of good ending...
Or a screwed-but-morally-victorious ending. Greek tragedies rated high on that ^^
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
|
| |
|
|
This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
