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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 02:49 AM |
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All male lineups did exist in the old games though? That argument isnt wrong
I generally tend to ignore when people make Ashan arguments and use H5 as example. In this case because H5 looks like a warhammer game. Although i loved my matriarchs and blood maidens.
I believe H5 with H6/7 units would look pretty cool. H7 seraph is imo, the best angel design in the series, followed by H4
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 12, 2016 02:53 AM |
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Why does it matter what gender the units have?
@Soilburn: sorry but your post did not include a concrete example, just an abstraction without any proof
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 02:55 AM |
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I like female units. I'm not saying its a problem though, just stating that him saying that wasnt incorrect.
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 03:06 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
Why is Heroes "meant" to be like this? Just because the early games were like this? What is the issue with having a cohesive lineup that makes logically sense? You don't have to have 7 Elves or 7 Humans. But if a faction is based on Human towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 humans or combinations of humans/mounts in there (and the remaining 3-4 units can be something different that fits the lore and concept of the certain faction).
At the core of it yes, because the early games were like this and if NWC were still making the games then we'd have theme based factions. Most everything made 'logically' enough sense to people and its not like ncw were ever completely out of wack with their decisions. Even when creatures bounced around they made it look right so everything would fit nicely. Besides, in Ashan avatars of their beloved gods and goddesses stand toe to toe with a guy in armor and a sword. That doesn't sound like logic to me 
I find your stance on this really odd if H4 is your favorite game. Its a fantastic game with great line ups because they're based around a cool theme.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 12, 2016 03:08 AM |
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Edited by verriker at 03:22, 12 Aug 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
As much as you would like it, I won't entertain a flame war with any of the posters above (excluding people like yourself, your last post had nothing to do with the previous ones). Most of the other comments, however, included cherry-picking single exceptions and ignoring the rule (come on, what logical person would deny that 90's and 00's fantasy games including HoMM had a tendency to oversexualize the depiction of humanoids to increase sales?)
I did answer to the only person who tried to post something like an argumentation (LizardWarrior), but unfortunately the only thing he did was twist my words.
Yes, I do believe that part of the community has macho-anachronistic views. But why would anybody here get offended by this if they do not believe it refers to them personally?
And no post touched any "raw nerve". I couldn't care less for people stuck in the past. They can play H3 forever for what I care. I am only disappointed that different tastes and views are not accepted and rather treated with hostility.
EDIT: LizardWarrior you can check my last post for all examples you need on how you twisted everything I said. Thanks
ah sorry for that then, I thought you were involving me as one the 5-6 previous posts you mentioned lol
I agree that you that this sexualization occurred in the industry, but I do think the other posts are making reasonable points, because I'd say Heroes under NWC has actually been very restrained in that outside of some, indeed, cherrypicked examples like the Heroes 1 Sprite, Queen Catherine, the Pegasi, and Might and Magic 8 (but, note that Queen Catherine's actual character is badass and empowered when you dig delow the surface as AnkVaati pointed out, she is actually competent than Roland, Isabel etc) lol
if we're talking about the units having noticeable tits, well yeah I mean some units in Heroes 3 have noticeable tits and chests and bits showing, but bear in mind, these games are desperate to evoke Classical art from Greek and Roman tradition, it's generally not gratuitous in any way, it's not going near Boris Vallejo territory or even Dungeons and Dragons really lol
basically I agree with you that there have been some morons in the community, and it is nice to have more tastefully depicted female units in principle, but unlike you I don't see where Ubisoft/Team Erwin have been doing anything particularly different or superior to NWC lately, you can pick out some good or bad examples in all of the games, I mean the likes of this and this are not necessarily what I'd call non-sexualized and progressive lol
edit, it's a side point, but also please be aware that it's not like the NWC was some bunch of closet sexist frat boys we are making up convoluted arguments for, or not like the guys at Nival who basically admitted they created the Dark Elf faction just to get their jollies, the NWC art directors and a majority of their senior artists were actually women lol
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 04:08 AM |
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to be fair the dervish falls into the same "meant to evoke X" claim (hindu culture) and the succubus is supposed to be a sex/seducction demon. I honestly believe that the only cringeworthy design of the series (in that aspect) is Catherine design.
Honestly the only thing i could consider sexist in the old games was the Genie turning male for the upgrade. Yes, it happens in H5 and H7 as well but obvious biological reasons do apply there (Rakshasha arms and Deer horns)
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The_Polyglot
Promising
Supreme Hero
channeling capybara energy
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posted August 12, 2016 05:41 AM |
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Yeah, that bit was disgustingly sexist from NWC. But Ubi doing it again was equally sexist.
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Friend-shaped
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 05:48 AM |
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I dont mind the H5 and 7 cases much because male Rakshasas have extra arms and Deers have huge*** horns and bigger frame. Besides to be fair they did just make both the normal and the upgrade male in H7 (and H6 leak). I wish we had gotten a horned female Sun Doe tho, it would have linked nicely with the myth of the Ceryneian Hind but w.e.
Meanwhile female genies were just as good as males (since both can be heroes) so that upgrade was stupid but as i said before, w.e. My favorite genie design is H4's anyway
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 12, 2016 08:18 AM |
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Gryphs said:
The_Green_Drag said:
Or the ghost...
What was wrong with the ghost? I mean it was just like the average female phantasms from H2 to me.
With plastic surgery and a tit job, yeah.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 08:59 AM |
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I remember a discussion with the devs I had - Elvin might remember - when H6 was designed, and it was about the Succubus. You may remember the kinky H6 Succubus, likable, tempting, and the Kiril brat with his Succubus and Angel mistresses, and I think it was the first time I really got upset about the way, the game was serving boyish fantasies, following the mainstream trend of seeing monsters/predators as humans with some difficult to control condition. (This is true whether it's Vampires, or Succubae - or even serial killers.)
H5 did a great job on them, doing them justice, but the truth is, there is nothing MONSTROUS anymore about these creatures in H6. You see, a Succubus for grown-ups would have to be primal as porn, stark naked, overstated primary and secondary sex characteristics, and ugly as sin around that, because monstrous is something that is absolutely horrible, but still arousing on a primal level (which is the horror: you want to fight this, but can't and are aroused instead, against your will). As opposed to something that is really attractive, but might also be dangerous - like, say, a big cat. You are not tempted with good looks (or even kinky sex or whatever), you are clubbed with powerful magic like a fly is tempted by a venusian fly trap.
Bringing in more females is following a trend here. You'd think, if it was about "reality" or "gender equality" you'd have more Brienne of Tart(h) in these games - what do I say, MORE of them? There aren't any, aren't there?
Let's face it - it's commercial interest. I would love to see gender equality, by allowing for UGLY and DISFIGURED female characters as well (with men that works, it makes them more interesting than anything else, but with women, they seem to lose).
Bottom line is, gender equality looks different.
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ChrisD1
Supreme Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 09:01 AM |
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Avirosb said:
Speaking of which.
There's having an opinion and there is stating that opinion as fact while failing to back up the conclusion.
Well it's quite difficult for him to go through 1500 pages but anyone else is free to check for himself
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Gryphs
Supreme Hero
The Clever Title
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posted August 12, 2016 09:03 AM |
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Avirosb said:
With plastic surgery and a tit job, yeah.
Well, yes, this is Ashan.
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"Don't resist the force. Redirect it. Water over rock."-blizzardboy
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BurntPhoenix
Hired Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 09:51 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
Maybe you have to question if your attitudes are excluding different opinions and this is maybe the reason why this community is so tiny?
Heroes/Might and Magic fanbase was never that huge to begin with, say like a Final Fantasy one or even a Diablo one.
This is an obscure forum that was more active in the heyday of the series anyway. Imagine that--- quality inspires more involvement.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 12, 2016 10:33 AM |
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BurntPhoenix said:
This is an obscure forum that was more active in the heyday of the series anyway. Imagine that--- quality inspires more involvement.
I wasn't around forums during the golden age (Heroes III) but I clearly recall there was easily two times more people active when h7 got first announced in 2014, all these people vanished at some point. I would say simple lost of interest, I mean the game is out for one year and there isn't even one strategy thread.
Avirosb said:
Gryphs said:
The_Green_Drag said:
Or the ghost...
What was wrong with the ghost? I mean it was just like the average female phantasms from H2 to me.
With plastic surgery and a tit job, yeah.
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 10:38 AM |
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SoilBurn said:
But if a faction is based on Human towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 humans or combinations of humans/mounts in there (and the remaining 3-4 units can be something different that fits the lore and concept of the certain faction).
Exactly!!!
And because “Virtual HC core group” being against this and similar sort of trivial expectations, when reading their posts for me it is hard to believe that they give valid explications for why people like playing Homm games. This is probably not about “Why people like to play Homm games” but rather why some “HC members like to play Homm games”. I see no generic truth in their description titled: “How a Homm game must be implemented to be a good game”. That’s because I don’t like half of their suggestions… I would maybe not even buy a Homm game designed by HC members, because of the huge difference in vision. I do consider myself a Homm fan, simply because I spent thousands of hours and several years playing H5. This in itself is enough for “Fan” title, right? But when reading these recipes on how to cook a good Homm game a la HC I don’t even understand how is it possible that we play the same game and have so different reasons for why we like it.
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 10:50 AM |
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Bitula said:
SoilBurn said:
But if a faction is based on Human towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 humans or combinations of humans/mounts in there (and the remaining 3-4 units can be something different that fits the lore and concept of the certain faction).
Exactly!!!
And because “Virtual HC core group” being against this and similar sort of trivial expectations, when reading their posts for me it is hard to believe that they give valid explications for why people like playing Homm games. This is probably not about “Why people like to play Homm games” but rather why some “HC members like to play Homm games”. I see no generic truth in their description titled: “How a Homm game must be implemented to be a good game”. That’s because I don’t like half of their suggestions… I would maybe not even buy a Homm game designed by HC members, because of the huge difference in vision. I do consider myself a Homm fan, simply because I spent thousands of hours and several years playing H5. This in itself is enough for “Fan” title, right? But when reading these recipes on how to cook a good Homm game a la HC I don’t even understand how is it possible that we play the same game and have so different reasons for why we like it.
Complete bullcrap. The human town has always been that, in H1 and H2 FULLY human, H3 giving them Angels and Griffins as "super-natural" beings, H4 completely transcending the motive, though (which should be obvious for people who supposedly liked H4 so much).
H5 not only went back to that concept, making more or less a solid H3 copy with Haven, but also basing others on race as well, most notoriously Dwarves, thereby robbing Haven the sole reason of existence, because prior to that there was ONE AND ONLY ONE town like that.
It would have been better to find more distinct motives: Haven = race, Necro = Undead, Academy = Spirits & Constructs, Inferno = Demons (that have no racial similarity); Naga works more or less. What didn't work was both Elves and Dwarves, which was redundant and not good.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 12, 2016 10:51 AM |
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Bitula said:
I don’t even understand how is it possible that we play the same game and have so different reasons for why we like it.
Because it's not the same game. 
It has the Heroes name on it but now it has free skills, race-based towns etc. Ubi made too drastic changes, appealing to other people without considering the ones already enjoying it for three games in a row.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 12, 2016 11:28 AM |
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I would like to remind people that strong opinions tend to provoke equally strong responses - not always in agreement with said strong opinion. But it's in the category of provocation nonetheless; as such, I would urge people to think about posts containing such strong opinions before really posting them - or replying to them, as they can more easily fall towards bickering and namecalling.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 11:31 AM |
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JollyJoker said:
Complete bullcrap. The human town has always been that, in H1 and H2 FULLY human, H3 giving them Angels and Griffins as "super-natural" beings, H4 completely transcending the motive, though (which should be obvious for people who supposedly liked H4 so much).
H5 not only went back to that concept, making more or less a solid H3 copy with Haven, but also basing others on race as well, most notoriously Dwarves, thereby robbing Haven the sole reason of existence, because prior to that there was ONE AND ONLY ONE town like that.
It would have been better to find more distinct motives: Haven = race, Necro = Undead, Academy = Spirits & Constructs, Inferno = Demons (that have no racial similarity); Naga works more or less. What didn't work was both Elves and Dwarves, which was redundant and not good.
Well, exactly. So where do we disagree?
The way I like it:
1) But if a faction is based on Human towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 humans
2) But if a faction is based on Dwarf towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 dwarfs
3) But if a faction is based on Elf towns, I expect to see at least 3-4 elves
4) But if a faction is based on Undead towns, I expect to see at least 6-7 undead
5) But if a faction is based on Demon towns, I expect to see at least 5-6 demons
This is how I would like it. And this is how you (partially) wouldn’t like it. So which one of us represents the majority? I don’t know. Do you like H5 at all? Because if not, what are we discussing? Note, I would like Homm series to follow H5, not H1-H5. I don’t think that majority of Homm fans would like a mix of H1-H5. They probably have a favorite one, and want to base the next Homm on that one.
@Galaad
I was talking about H5, and you? If H5 was a drastic change I don’t care, because I like it the way it is. Tried H3, didn’t like it when comparing to H5. It's OK, but it is less.
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted August 12, 2016 11:38 AM |
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Edited by AnkVaati at 12:41, 12 Aug 2016.
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SoilBurn said:
Maybe you have to question if your attitudes are excluding different opinions and this is maybe the reason why this community is so tiny? Maybe if you were willing to accept that some Heroes fans happen to like different things than the majority of you, you would be able to accept their opinions without reacting like aggravated pre-teens?
How come the exact same decline has happening at Celestial Heavens too? Hint: Ubi screwed up the game, so people have stopped playing it. Once upon a time, the Age of Heroes Tournament of Honor could have several thousand playing H3 in only one month.
If you don't want to feel hurt in your bottom because people disagree with you, don't post immature crap like us who disagree with you having "old world fixated-macho-anachronistic views".
SoilBurn said:
And the pictures posted above prove my point. Yes, female units have chests, deal with it.
If you move your *ss from your computer screen, you'll notice that many chicks think a lot about their breast size and weigh and unrealistically big breasts and small waist sizes like your favourite pixels can have a very negative effect on those. Ubisoft does this thing over and over again to please hormone fueled young boys who've never seen any normal women IRL.
SoilBurn said:
I did answer to the only person who tried to post something like an argumentation
Stop trying to act so snooty and grumpy when you've just got trashed after your arguments didn't even make sense to other people. That beta attitude won't get you near any IRL equivalent of the stuff that you enjoy watching on your screen.
JollyJoker said:
Complete bullcrap. The human town has always been that, in H1 and H2 FULLY human, H3 giving them Angels and Griffins as "super-natural" beings, H4 completely transcending the motive, though (which should be obvious for people who supposedly liked H4 so much).
H5 not only went back to that concept, making more or less a solid H3 copy with Haven, but also basing others on race as well, most notoriously Dwarves, thereby robbing Haven the sole reason of existence, because prior to that there was ONE AND ONLY ONE town like that.
It would have been better to find more distinct motives: Haven = race, Necro = Undead, Academy = Spirits & Constructs, Inferno = Demons (that have no racial similarity); Naga works more or less. What didn't work was both Elves and Dwarves, which was redundant and not good.
Also, Humans were present in nearly all the towns during the NWC era, so Haven/Castle/Knight was more like a certain group of (mostly) humans with similar ideals than only the "Human town". But yeah, it was an en exception in that regard - that it was heavily racially homogeneous.
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
