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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 12, 2016 11:59 PM |
bonus applied by Maurice on 13 Aug 2016. |
Edited by Momo at 00:00, 13 Aug 2016.
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I think that the above discussion has reached an all time low for this community. And I'm not referring to its tone, to the trade of insults and flames -which should better be both ignored and avoided- but to its subject.
To be clear, I'm not one of those "sick of all this equality stuff" at all. I spent many of my years as a boy into political activism and due to my family history, the equality between men and women is one of the most, if not the most, dearest issue to me. There's a lot to be said about it and many battles to fight and much to overcome, and despite me living in Italy a -much relatively- advanced country in this respect. I care about gender equality. A lot.
This personal premise aside, HOMM has nothing to do with gender equality and getting to the point of discussing who between NWC and Ubisoft had the most gender-equal approach shows a gradual loss of connection with reality.
HOMM is a fantasy strategy game and has to do just that: entertain us with strategic fighting in a fantasy scenario. That's why it exist.
I don't mean to be offensive to everyone here, I returned to this community after years because I thought of you guys as pretty cool pals somewhat. But you are wasting your time discussing a landslide of things that are just irrelevant in the context of why HOMM is in a sorry state.
You treat as objective and sound judgements many issues in which there's much subjectivity involved. Many of the things some of you find horrid, I may appreciate (I'll mention once again the various factions' aesthethic) and another may even love. Some of these things bear a mild degree of objectivity (if you say the sound effects of creature in HOMM7 are irritating or that most of the plot and dialogue is written awfully, I bet not many will disagree) and some of these things allow for a modicum of discussion as long as we want it to be (for instance, I disliked separating elves and dwarves because I found the AvLee/Rampart faction to be distinctive and unique, whereas I though of the Necropolis/Deijya as too "old school horror"-styled and therefore I like the Ashan version of necropolis enough, but one may counter that HOMM3's Necro had its elements of novelty or that HOMM6's Necro resembles a lot another product I am not aware of, or may object that elves and dwarves together were just bad and random). But in the end, these are all matters of preferences. You can discuss art direction, lore, tone settings, but in the end everyone will simply pick their favorite.
The thing is, not everything is a matter of preference.
HOMM7 is a broken game. This one is one objective truth. It is the third main installment in a row that they release in a barely playable state that is basically downright unplayable if compared to modern standards; possibly the negative paragon of the "we'll patch it later" mindset. It is the third game in a row that is severely heavier and sluggier than a 20yrs-old predecessor, coming with a plethora of crashes, bugs, glitches, unwanted effects on the gameplay and savings, etc. It is the third game in a row that is severely unbalanced with elements in the game that just aren't the viable choice to pick ever, in any scenario, so are just wrong choices no matter what - we're speaking of creatures, spells, entire factions that have no reason to exist within the game, yet money and time was spent into programming them. It will likely be the third game in a row whose online support gets cut prematurely even if the fans clearly state they're willing to invest time, hope and eventually money in order to have the game fixed. It is the fourth game in the whole series that alters radically some of the core features, and IT DOESN'T MATTER which features you liked or disliked (once again that goes back to preferences for the most), it just means that the vision of what the game is as its core has long been lost and the devs work without having a clue - which the devs candidly admit.
That is what is killing Heroes: not Ashan, not that ridicolous looking spider city, not the hamsters with crossbows, not trying to tweak the combat or economy formulae* (the question is how you do it, not that you shouldn't change anything), not the seven schools of magic* (yes: albeit it was stupid to get rid of the fine HOMM5 system, no one would complain if the newer system had been better), and certainly not the goddamn politics of NWC and Ubi about gender equality, which are both non-existant and unconsequential.
What's killing HOMM is very simply that they are bad games.
And when they're entrusted to blatantly incompetent developers with very little funds and time, ample liberties in all respects and essentially no quality checks, with no marketing and horrible PR management, they're bound to be.
Now I know many of you assume that this community is powerless and insignificant, but that's not entirely true. Ubisoft has taken this route with other licenses in the past, and they can and will correct their course if they get the distinct feeling that they are killing a profitable license. It's not to take for granted, somertimes they'll just drop it there (they euthanized Rayman for example, and did so remorselessly even after a game that had positive reception) but there is a chance they decide to raise the quality bar, especially after a sales-bomb. And when they do, suddenly the opinion of the communities online IS going to matter a little more.
And what's more, I don't think it is that hard to convey a "HOMM core vision" from the community, if the community stopped wasting its time on marginal topics. For instance, we'll probably all agree -a crushing majority at least- that having just HOMM3 with improved graphics would be better than what we have now. We'd probably could agree -again, a big slice of us at least- that some of the innovations of HOMM5 like the caravans, the magic schools, made sense as improvements to some of HOMM3's lackings whereas other things were still perceived as welcomed additions (the skillwheel, the alternate upgrades, etc). We could easily single out features that everyone found as a definite step in the right direction from the latest games (for instance, I think the spy network in HOMM7 is a good call). And so on. It would be easy to focus on at least a skeleton of gameplay that consitutes the core of the HOMM series and that we wouldn't want to see changed.
Even in the case Ubi wipes its floor with all we said in this respect, it's still more constructive and useful that pointlessly comparing Ashan with Axeoth&co, treating art direction as something governed by one and only one taste (which happens to be your own), crying about the old days, discussing our own preferences as superior even on something borderline absurd as the "sexualization" of NWC and Ubi.
....
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I understand this post was very long and I apologize for the harsh and sometimes patronizing tone, but know that I speak from the heart and I really think we could simply use our HOMM-dedicated time better.
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Storm-Giant
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
On the Other Side!
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posted August 13, 2016 12:07 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:32, 13 Aug 2016.
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Indeed it's a low that we are talking about lineup gender equality (or lack of it) instead of strategy, map making, etc. That shows how bad the game has been received.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 13, 2016 12:15 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:32, 13 Aug 2016.
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Truth to be told, we all lack a (good) new game to discuss. Even during h6 era, there were threads discussing strategies and campaigns, now nothing, it just shows how much of a disaster h7 was.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 13, 2016 12:19 AM |
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I still think Ashan is also responsible for bugs.
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olorin
Adventuring Hero
tophatchild.blogspot.com
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posted August 13, 2016 12:20 AM |
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Momo said:
IT DOESN'T MATTER which features you liked or disliked (once again that goes back to preferences for the most), it just means that the vision of what the game is as its core has long been lost and the devs work without having a clue - which the devs candidly admit.
That is what is killing Heroes: not Ashan
What's killing HOMM is very simply that they are bad games.
That's exactly my point. You've just nailed it. We're talking about either broken or sloppy overpriced products here, that's all. Every other consideration is secondary, a simple matter of taste.
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 12:30 AM |
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Well said, Momo, well said!
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 13, 2016 12:41 AM |
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well, even if I don't agree with all of it, (agree with 95% though), that's another post which deserves a QP lol
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 12:46 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:00, 13 Aug 2016.
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Galaad said:
I still think Ashan is also responsible for bugs.
Well I admit you won me a good laugh mate 
Well played!
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 13, 2016 01:03 AM |
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Edited by Maurice at 01:28, 13 Aug 2016.
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verriker said:
well, even if I don't agree with all of it, (agree with 95% though), that's another post which deserves a QP lol
Awarded, before I even read your recommendation  .
In truth, Momo, I think most of the community here has gone over the subjects that you raise as being much more important to the game overall than the gender issue and such. But it's a stale discussion, as there seems to be general agreement on them within the community, coupled with our inability to convey that to the development team. They've turned a deaf ear to their customers while admitting they didn't have a vision for the game. I consider that a very weird business model, where they lack the body of what they're attempting to make - how can that ever result in something good?
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 01:09 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 01:10, 13 Aug 2016.
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Maurice said:
admitting they didn't have a vision for the game.
Actually whenever I think of that comment I am still dazzled. It sounds a bit like:
"We can't just make the game the fan wants".
"Why, what sort of game do you want to make?"
"Huuh, dunno about that, can't figure it out".
What the hell LeBreton? Sounds like mocking.
EDIT: thanks everybody for the kind reaction to a post that was probably a bit jerk-faced.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 03:00 AM |
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I like this momo person. Keep throwing bars and unplugging mics darling...unless you try to come for me, because i will cut you
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 13, 2016 04:22 AM |
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Ok so I don't have trial by fire, but here is my view on the HOMM universe as I've played it. Are there/have there been bugs? Sure. Some game breaking, some just 'wth'? I am currently playing through the scenarios of VII again.. and I have to say .. to me it is a vast improvement over VI. Talking leaps and bounds.
I've toyed with builds that should not work, and have made them work. I've been utterly destroyed on builds that should work the best. ((Dang 4x4 sunburst!) Most of the bugs are gone, there is still a lot of polishing to do, but it has come a long way. Here is the thing though.
It's like movies. I've watched movies that have been panned by both critics and audiences alike.. and I enjoyed them for what they were. Same goes for HOMM. I am terrible at strategy, but i love strategy games.. maybe that is why the unorthodox builds work for me, and the 'best' builds I seem to fail at. Now I don't play multiplayer. My mind is swiss cheese due to illness so no way I can think long term. Which is where the scenarios come in. 4 maps and out. I can't creep without small losses, but that is not so big in the scenarios. It is in multiplayer.
Is VII the best current strategy game? No. It is good for what it is though. I think a lot of people who played the old HOMM games are looking through tinted glasses. Comparing it to the old games. It is not those games. it doesn't try to be. It is something you sit down at, pass hours and lose yourself in the game.
Gameplay is subjective, not objective. Bugs are objective, however. If you are expecting a flawless, masterwork game.. you won't find it here. What you will find is that, if you just let yourself go, you can look at a clock and say "I've been playing HOW long?!"
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Message received.
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yogi
Promising
Famous Hero
of picnics
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posted August 13, 2016 05:46 AM |
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Edited by yogi at 18:41, 13 Aug 2016.
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Bitula said:
So what do you want to say here? That I like race based, you like shared value based factions? Yes that is true. And? So which one of us represents the preference of the majority of fans? I mean the people who buy and play the Homm games? You? No, I don’t think so. I don’t think that people buy homm games because of “shared values factions”, lol. To me races are more realistic, and I like fantasy realism. I guess I am not alone with this…
your preference is irrelevant. fan preference is irrelevant. heroes of might and magic is definitively a multiplayer strategy game first and foremost between player factions that are representative of a philosophical and mythological contrast between might and magic; order and chaos, life and death, creation and destruction, attack and defense, power and knowledge, etc. the game mechanics themselves are fundamentally extrapolated from philosophical archetypes, the factions just represent mythologically and asymmetrically extreme alignments within these mechanics. races are manifestations of, and derivative of, these same archetypes, thus each faction ideology is supported by units from varying fantasy races. like-minded races converging to form ideological factions. heroes of might leading the mighty races and heroes of magic leading the magical races and heroes of life leading the living races and heroes of death leading the dead, etc. this is heroes of might and magic: a sandbox full of mythological castles for players to tell their own stories with. castles comprised of dwellings from which races of similar value systems emerge. lore built around mechanics. within these systems one can create almost any story; make any world; full of any number of races. heroes of might and magic is a tool for creation, not a vehicle for delivering fantasy tropes. erwan decided to impose his personal lore bible upon the games mechanical systems, and consequently the might and magic heroes games are much more shallow, restrictive, and philosophically depraved than ernest heroes of might and magic games.
ubi killed heroes, fed its corpse to us as mobile morsels, necrod the remaining hollow husk, just to do it all over again. capitalist pigs. enjoy your retarded, schismatic race wars. entertaining though they may be, forge communities they do not. it takes a truly mighty soul to concoct such magic.
rip homm.  i shall avenge thee..
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yogi - class: monk | status: healthy
"Lol we are HC'ers.. The same tribe.. Guy!" ~Ghost
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 08:19 AM |
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@Mytical,
I won't meet you on any of your statements even though I'm tempted to, it's all been said and done. I'll just express my disappointment in you and leave it at that, but I guess you were ready for that much.
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Guide to a Great Heroes Game
The Young Traveler
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 13, 2016 09:55 AM |
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Edited by blob2 at 09:56, 13 Aug 2016.
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Momo said:
That is what is killing Heroes: not Ashan, not that ridicolous looking spider city, not the hamsters with crossbows, not trying to tweak the combat or economy formulae* (the question is how you do it, not that you shouldn't change anything), not the seven schools of magic* (yes: albeit it was stupid to get rid of the fine HOMM5 system, no one would complain if the newer system had been better), and certainly not the goddamn politics of NWC and Ubi about gender equality, which are both non-existant and unconsequential.
What's killing HOMM is very simply that they are bad games.
Great post overall Momo and above bit pretty much sums up what has been going on around with the franchise and this community lately. I even liked some elements of Ashan (dragon gods for instance), but bad game design simply ruined them for me. Heroes 5 was playable, 6 was a one-time adventure and 7 is simply detestable and instead of being this lucky seven it went backwards (series being at it's lowest).
There's maybe a slight chance that by changing the direction they might still salvage HoM&M/MM. But Ubi is in crisis and they will bet their money on things that are more safe to earn them dough, so I don't have high hopes for the franchise in the nearest future...
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 11:23 AM |
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The trailer for Heroes of Mobile and Mandarin: https://new.vk.com/video334703370_456239130
Also gameplay: https://youtube.com/watch?v=jt0VBZO3AMA
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2016 11:34 AM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 11:35, 13 Aug 2016.
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Looks like it has a Heroes V feel to it. I personally don't mind it, except for that Warcraft feeling and them squares. And that townscreen is much better than Heroes VII ones, talk about bias. Even if there are still some mistakes that aren't corrected yet about it.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 13, 2016 11:46 AM |
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Of course, blizzard is big on the Chinese market, they are gonna to plagiarize warcraft. Damn you ubishaft rascals 
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fuChris
Promising
Supreme Hero
Master to the Speed of Light
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posted August 13, 2016 11:51 AM |
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Dammit.
How can a mobile game be this much better that H7?
It plays faster, has better UI, has a better townscreen AND seems simply more fun to play. The fact that it is Chinese also has the added benefit that I can't understand any of its most likely dragongod infested storyline. And no spiders as far as the eye can see.
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"Now I am become Chris, the destroyer of worlds." - Robert Oppenheimer.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2016 12:09 PM |
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
