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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 13, 2016 04:56 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 17:02, 13 Aug 2016.
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Tonwen616 said:
Harpies on Enroth also may have some connection with Warhammer Dark Elves, especially that the ranks of Harpies on Enroth games, especially in MM7, have similarities to ranks to Dark Elf Witch Elves, ie Harpy Ranks are the Harpy, Harpy Hag, and Harpy Queen. Witch Elf ranks in Warhammer are Witch Elf, Hag, Death Hag, and Hag Queen. Witch Elves were also said to be reincarnated as Harpies in Warhammer...
A well-written post, Tonwen! I am just picking out the above part, to comment on it, as Verriker pretty much addressed everything else  .
As it is, Heroes 3 featured numerous mythological creatures that stem from ancient Greek and Roman mythology. The Harpy is one such creature: ancient Greek Harpy. As such, I would rather say that both games (WarHammer and Heroes) sought their inspiration from ancient mythology, rather than from eachother  - at least, as far as those mythological creatures are concerned.
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 05:04 PM |
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Maurice said:
I would rather say that both games (WarHammer and Heroes) sought their inspiration from ancient mythology, rather than from eachother .
Heroes III (and all NWC era Maght and Magic games in general) is so inspired by everything from everywhere so it would be correct to say that this game doesn't have a particular art style and art direction at all. Who knows, maybe this makes H3 so attractive since it fits everyone's taste?
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Creature Scale mod (patch 2.2.1 compatible)
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 05:29 PM |
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Edited by Stevie at 18:05, 13 Aug 2016.
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Mytical
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Chaos seeking Harmony
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posted August 13, 2016 06:22 PM |
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Maurice said:
Tonwen616 said:
A well-written post, Tonwen! I am just picking out the above part, to comment on it, as Verriker pretty much addressed everything else .
As it is, Heroes 3 featured numerous mythological creatures that stem from ancient Greek and Roman mythology. The Harpy is one such creature: ancient Greek Harpy. As such, I would rather say that both games (WarHammer and Heroes) sought their inspiration from ancient mythology, rather than from eachother - at least, as far as those mythological creatures are concerned.
"There is nothing new under the sun Heratio" <--(spelling)
About 99.9999999999% of every game or movie can be traced back to other sources. Even dungeons and dragons first edition borrow a TON of lore from many places. Worse, when something new and inventive does come along there is a chance people do not like/enjoy it, so it can fade to obscurity. So new is always a risk, and companies are in the market to make money. They can take a risk, maybe lose a ton of money (New Coke anybody???), or they can stick with the tried and true and slight variations of the tried and true.
Which brings me to my last post. I do agree a lot with Momo, HOMM needs a lot of work to make it a great game, instead of just a Meh one. However, people clambered for something 'new', and when they got it said "Why can't it be like Homm III?" News flash, that is not new. Now, before you grab the pitchforks and torches I agree that the last couple of games have been lacking. Too many bugs at launch, if you play multiplayer there are certain skills you have to have in order to be competitive, balance issues.. the list goes on and on.
Now what should happen is they have to try to find a balance between new, and familiar. Maybe this app based game will do that, or maybe the diehard HOMM III fans will take a look at it and say "Why can't it be like HOMM III?' ((By they way there is HOMM III 3d out)).
Now there is a way to stop games coming out broken.. stop preorders, stop kickstarters, stop buying games that are bug riddled. That is not going to happen, however, people want their cake and to eat it also. "I want this now, don't care if it is not finished, but I want it bug free." I don't think we are going to have to worry about it long though. Mobile is pretty much taking over. It will be a hollow victory though. Much of what we cherished about the originals will be forfeit for convenience sake. Is that good? Is it bad? Only time will tell. Just remember new is not always bad. It can lead to great things. IMO they are getting better. HOMM V was terribel, VI was not so great either, VII was better but it still needs a TON of work.
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Message received.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2016 06:44 PM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 18:49, 13 Aug 2016.
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Mytical said:
Now what should happen is they have to try to find a balance between new, and familiar. Maybe this app based game will do that, or maybe the diehard HOMM III fans will take a look at it and say "Why can't it be like HOMM III?' ((By they way there is HOMM III 3d out)).
I am tired of this argument. Let me ask you, what exactly should be like Heroes III?
If it is the units, well, a lot of them are still incorporated in other Heroes games, under different abilities, designs or their own lore.
If it is the campaigns and scenarios, I don't see what it is that much compelling to have a new game just to play the same maps over.
Or if it is the game features? That could be a viable argument, but there ought to be some improvement, else there'd be still criticism about.
And if it is something else, then note already.
I am just saying that all of this makes no sense. People don't want a next H3 game, that's why they have the HD edition. People want new, but that is an improvement, yet still continues on the tradition of having "that special something" that allows a player to thoroughly enjoy the game, which leaves a desire to be replayed.
Being said, people can play Heroes VI and VII, but it is just that people play it and grow tired and bored of it. That is not the case for the other games.
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 13, 2016 06:55 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 18:56, 13 Aug 2016.
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Actually aren't we over this whole NWC/Ubi inspirations thing?
I know there are some really hard critics of Ashan here, but to me it seems like the 'Ashan hate' is a consequence of the recent games being simply bad. 'Ashan hate' is directly connected to Erwin as it is his child, so whatever will be done about Ashan at this point will be mostly disregarded. That's called bad reputation and you have to 'earn' it. That's what Momo said before me, and that's how I see it...
I don't understand the disputes here cause to me it doesn't even matter if Ashan is a ripoff or not. I even liked it at the begining, I like Warhmammer, Warcraft etc, but I also like Heroes I-III setting as it represents something I like to call 'traditional fanatsy' (even if it's not exactly pure fantasy with its sci-fi background). Heroes VI-VII didn't deliver at it's core element, which is gaming expierience, so the rest is of little importance to me.
But the China thing is something different. It's cheap. They're using old faces as a sort of clickbait, and that's pretty low on their behalf...
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 06:58 PM |
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verriker said:
alright Tonwen616 mate, nice post, I think to expand on or add some thoughts to your various points though lol,
to be honest this origin of the Elves is not unique to Heroes or Warhammer whatsoever IMO, basically they are a completely generic elven origin taken from the Tolkien Middle-Earth elves, which are the forefathers of these long-lived fair-folk elves we see in all modern fantasy, with the elves of Valinor in the west going east and having a schism splitting off into the various clans north and south, light and dark, (the Noldor and the Vanyar), even down to the magical swords of the apocalypse Anguirel and Anglachel, held by Turin in the final battle of Tolkien's world,
I am sure David Mullich and his team ripped off the Tolkien if anything, because he is a massive Tolkien fan lol
Yes, but you see, Tolkienian Dark Elves, don't live in the counterpart of the New World(ie Americas), like Dark Elves in boh Might& Magic VIII, and Warhammer.
And yes, Jadame is the counterpart of Americas, as seen with Inca/Maya/Aztec/[url=http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Mayincatec]Mayincatec[/url] style pyramids, for example.
Both the Sword of Frost, and Sword of Khaine, share other similarities, beside being. The Sword of Frost, shifts the limate in Vori(as well as Antagrich), like the Sword of Khaine aparently affects the The Blighted Isle, and it's suroundings.
Like High Elves rather VERY feared the power of the Sword of Khaine, and were protective of, to the point it's suggested the when the High Elf King Tethlis, was tempted to draw it, his own bodyguard slain him. The Pure Blood Elves, are similarly paranoid about the Sword of Frost.
Since Heroes III Elves, or at least Rampart/Asylum/AvLee/Aranorn seemed to have a strong connection to (good) dragons, like elves have with dragons in Warhammer. Indeed, I think Warhammer, was one of the first to suggest such thing, although taking at least some suggestions from Elric of Melniboné, although the Melniboné, and the dragons they are connected with, are far more malevolent than Wood(Renegade) and Pure-Blood/Vori Elves, with both Wood(Renegade) and Pure-Blood/Vori Elves being closer in similarity to Warhammer's High and Wood Elves, with Wood Elves of Enroth though being far less Xenophobic than their Warhammer counterparts too.
Another similarity, is Asylum using White Great Felines. This was started by White Lions of Charce, breeding and using, well White Lions. White Lions of Charce are actually High Elves in Warhammer, but have some similarities to Wood Elves, also being fairly wild, living in woods, and even revering fairly fervently Kurnous, one of two most important deities for Warhammer Wood elves.
Although again, Aranorn was partially made up of Pure-Blood/Vori Elves apparently...
Warcraft's Night Elves also use and even ride Nightsabers(saber tooth tigers essentially), who were also white in Warcraft III, connecting to White Lions of Warhammer, but later they changed the coloration of majority of them, possibly for copyright infringement reasons.
Funny you mention David Mullich, I found this quote from him:
"Another person I was happy to meet was Greg Fulton, a new employee New World had hired to be the lead designer the Heroes of Might & Magic III team I was putting together. Greg was hired on the same day I was, and we had never met each other previously, but we quickly became fast friends. I told Greg about my plan for upgrading the franchise’s art style from its past cartoony look to one that I called "extreme fantasy." Greg showed me some artwork from the Warhammer tabletop miniatures game, proving to me that he knew exactly what I meant."
[url=http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/universe/en-gb/news/news/details-news.aspx?c=tcm:21-129528-16&ct=tcm:6-231-32]http://might-and-magic.ubi.com/universe/en-gb/news/news/details-news.aspx?c=tcm:21-129528-16&ct=tcm:6-231-32[/url]
Basically confining Greg Fulton, lead designer the Heroes of Might & Magic III team, was a serious Warhammer Fan, and obviously inspired by it.
So by this point, I think similarities to Warhammer being accidental, become much less probable I think.
verriker said:
Tonwen616 said:
I wonder of Malekith wasn't originally to be intended as elven, only changed to Minotaur in production, due to fear of being accused of copyright infringement. He has even an odd description as if done hastily without much research into the Antagarich Minotaurs "One would expect a minotaur to be a fierce warrior, but Malekith wields magic with a fury that rivals the strength of the land's best mages."
Again, this odd, as there is as much Minotaur Warlocks in Heroes III(Deemer, Darkstrom, and Malekith himself), as human ones(Jeddite, Sephinroth and Alamar), in MM6 to MM8 Minotaurs have access to magic, and there are a lot of Minotaur sorcerers in Heroes IV.
there is no evidence that he got changed in production or has a first draft bio (some other heroes did), most of the minotaurs are not the best spellcasters though, the stereotype in Heroes 3 and 4 is that they will fight you in melee with their axe, I think that is the point of the bio that he is as good as any other wizard in the world lol
Hmmm, maybe, but it still seems odd the context of the text implies Malekith even BEING a mage is a rare exception, rather than him being a especially talented member of a miniority. Especially that in Might & Magic VI, the second level of Minotaurs, are Minotaur Mages, and Minotaur Kings, are essentially stronger Minotar Mages(with Finger of Death), giving argubly even Enroth's(continent's, not planet's) Minotaurs a bit Magocratic flavour.
verriker said:
the Silence concept in the Might and Magic basically dating back to 1986 with the Gates to Another World in Varn, and got more expanded on in 1991 where they were saying the worlds were cut off, and then again a bit more for Enroth in 1998, that was ripped off from Star Trek or popular sci-fi works if anything I think lol
Hmmm, indeed, but the concept got really fleshed out in Might & Magic VI, and made more similar to collapse of the Polar Warp Gates(ie adding a "demonic" connection to it), buy I guess it's a YMMV situation
verriker said:
this is absolutely the case, is almost unavoidable and is going on in all of these games,
this is why, it is a bit weird to me that people talk about originality a lot, and that Genka occasionally likes to have an epiphany about Dungeons and Dragons having influence on Might and Magic as if it is some breakthrough or hypocritical aspect of the arguments or something, when everyone who knows Might and Magic's history knows it began as a derivative Dungeons and Dragons clone with Star Trek references and proud of it,
it's a pastiche of popular fantasy and folklore, it's like cooking a popular meal, the ingredients aren't original, or supposed to be original, the only really original aspect, was the actual execution,
while the point of the Warhammer and Warcraft arguing is it was not supposed to be a Warhammer or Warcraft clone, that was not in the original vision or DNA and can cause identity problems if you go too far, it would be like if Warhammer suddenly had a reboot and the new team started to rip off Dragon Age a whole lot more both visually and conceptually, I bet you that even though Warhammer is not much more original at its core than Dragon Age, the fans of Warhammer would still complain because Warhammer still has a different identity to Dragon Age and is executed differently lol
bear in mind also, that Ubisoft/Erwin's plagiarism of Warhammer is not up for discussion, but an objective fact, as they actually did receive lawsuits from Games Workshop on Heroes 5 saying to cease and desist your plagiarism or else, this did not happen before in the series lol
Well, as I mentioned before, Greg Fulton, was also visibly inspired by Warhammer's visuals, and this why he retooled the series from it's more Fairy Tale look in Heroes II, to it's gritier look in Heroes III. The thing is, Gamer Workshop was noted to become much more aggressive with it's lawsuits, somewhere after/around 2004 or 2005.
Games Workshop(owners of Warhammer), are even described as such by their own FANS, because of that:
"GW The Bully
Games Workshop has long had a history of being one of the most litigious companies in regards to its IP in existence. One needs look no further than our own Pauldrons article to get an idea of how bad it is, in that it uses its designs to openly fight any company that dares have any remote similarity to its own models in any way, shape, or form. You have any wargame with armored dudes with big pauldrons? Lawsuit. You run a company that makes third-party components for existing models? Lawsuit. You make anything remotely resembling any GW IP ever and aren't a massive company that could actually contest the giant copyright stick GW is swinging around and make them look like the idiots they are? LAWSUIT.
Whilst GW has a lengthy history of overstepping boundaries in its war to enforce its copyright, it only recently decided to go nuclear. In 2013, GW launched the claim that it owns the phrase Space Marine, ignoring that sci-fi has used the terminology for the better part of eighty years (and showing their hypocrisy as Games Workshop shamelessly stole the term 'Eldar' from Tolkien; yes, he invented the word 'Eldar'). The story in question "Spots the Space Marine" is about a middle age housewife, nicknamed Spots, being recalled back to the Marine corp (ie a Real Marine, in space) to fight giant enemy crabs (in space). It had nothing to do with GW's Space Marines or the Warhammer 40K setting."
Yes, Games Worshop tried to copyright the term Space Marine, made made famous by sci-fi author Bob Olsen (real name; Alfred Johannes Olsen, 1884-1956), who may be the true creator of the term, over half a century of Warhammer, or Warhammer 40,000.
As Gamer Workshop became an INFAMOUSLY aggressive group with lawsuits, making this situation yes, at least bit up for discussion...
verriker said:
I think there is absolutely zero chance whatsoever, in fact I would confidently say there was negative chance, as in you would need more of a chance to even have zero chance, that Fabrice, Erwin or Nival were even remotely aware of Kastore, let alone looked at Kastore as a crucial or important factor in creating a Dark Elf Dunegon lol
it would not make much sense anyway, I mean we had Yog the Genie in the Barbarians, and Damala the Elf in the Necropolis, Maximus the Orc in the Knights, but they are just foreign mercenaries who defected to those factions, special exceptions to their race, you wouldn't seriously go out and cite them as a good reason to put Orcs in the Haven and such would you lol
Hmmm, I think you missed the bit on the previous page were I described on how Nicolai's Griffin's whole storyline, is a re-imagining(and fairly close one, if with some key differences) of Nicolas Gryphonheart's storyline from Restoration of Erathia. While poking fun/referencing on how (Lich King) Arthas was inspired by Lich King Gryphonheart.
Biara's storyline, is pretty clear reference to Sheltem. Both Biara and Sheltem disguise themselves as a monarch. Both are somewhat demonic(yes, Sheltem in an Android, but appeared as a Demon King and Devil King in Might & Magic I and II respectivelly.)
Both are arguably members of the Dungeon faction, while in another form(Biara as Shadya, Sheltem as Alamar, and seeing how the original MMX was supposed to go, Enroth's Sheltem being is not improbable).
These show Nival and/or Ubi known the Ancients universe fairly well, when creating Heroes V.
Also, about Kastore, he is characteristic, as in Heroes of Might and Magic games, as well in general in games taking place on Enroth, he was the original "bad" elf.
He also has a curious duality with Vatawna, the first elf Hero in the Sylvan(well, then Sorcress) town. The Dungeonand Sylvan town allways shared a duality, with first being opposite genders, and their top tier units symbolozing it ie the Phoenix is connected to Chinese Empress, and Dragon to the Chinese Emperor. As something I forgot to mention before, this probably was crucial when making Dungeon, a Dark Elven town in Heroes V, with Sylvan becoming Elven.
verriker said:
I think the only connection of Enroth's vampires and liches is that they are undead lol
however just to say something, it was hashed out many times I think, although some posts do still take the wrong angle, but the issue of Erwin's liches and the vampires is not an originality issue, because it is somewhat original, it is an issue because people for various reasons just think it is stupid lol
I think it is stupid that Erwin's so-called liches turn into vampires when historically in Heroes the liches are more powerful than the vampires, that's automatically discontinuous, I thought it was cool to keep them separate, that in NWC to be a vampire you are still "handsome" and have more powers but must drink blood and are susceptible to all sorts of hazards, whereas that to become a lich you gain massive powers but must sacrifice your earthly flesh and bone forever, and look like death, those are two different options to become the undead, and two different subcultures of undead which is more diverse and interesting,
it's as stupid to merge those two things together, to me, as it would be to have the zombies drink sacred cat piss or something and slowly turn into werewolves, I mean jesus christ that's pretty stupid no matter how you spin it lol
there is a lot more to bicker and argue about that, but those are some broad points to the disdain about Erwin undead lore lol
Sorry I don't want to be rude, but it seems you completely ignored, or overlooked what I wrote.
There are other connections between vampires and liches on Enroth. Liches in Might & Magic 7 are burned by sunlight exactly like vampires, and being burned by sunlight is an increadibly trademark vampire weakness.
And being created by ritual, that is named as if it was to create a vampire, ie “Ritual of Endless Night”, rather than a lich.
With vampires being "higher" in the hierarchy than liches, may be because vampires were often considered an overpowered unit in Heroes of Might & Magic games.
Also, about Zombie and Werewolf, yes they are connected, as both, are connected to vampires. Let me explain.
Modern, infective zombies, are more of a type of vampire in terms of folkloric origin, rather the the Voodoo undead. The very concept of the Infective Zombie, originated in "I Am Legend" 1954 horror fiction novel by American writer Richard Matheson, were the Zombie Apocalypse was caused by vampiric world wide infection. The creators of 1968 film Night of the Living Dead, outright admited being inspired by "I Am Legend".
In Slavic Folklore, from which the very name "vampire" originated, Vampires were often bloated, zombie like rotting creatures, or were hairy and beast like, like werewolves. To the point Vampires and Werewolves, were often interchangeable. And if they weren't the same, they were very closely connected. In the sense that if you killed a Werewolf, but didn't burn it's body, it metamorphose and rise as a Vampire. The silver weakness, was originally a purely vampiric weakness, given to werewolves first by Hollywood.
In folklore, Werewolves were rather killed by Wolfsbane.
So yeah, in a Necropolis town, from a Slavic Folklore perspecive, a three level, Zombie-> Werewolf->Vampire creature, would have complete sense.
verriker said:
it's a very tenuous and reaching connection to be honest IMO, first let's be frank that Erwin was not aware of this, also that's not really the Necromancer emblem of Enroth, it's one of six emblems, actually it was a [url=http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes1/garbs.shtml]Sorceress emblem[/url] in Heroes 1, and is only ever seen in Heroes 2 if you are the purple player IIRC and you choose the Necropolis,
but for an Erwin analogy, consider that the symbol of Enroth in Heroes 2 is lions, so why don't we put lions in the Knight lineup, have them worship lion god and make the Knight castle the shape of the lion, or the Barbarians once had a Hammer emblem in Heroes 1, so from now on all their units must wield hammers, we should put a sentient hammer in their lineup, they must talk about hammers in campaign and their castle will be a big hammer,
do you get my drift lol, as many discussions have gone over, there is no problem at all to have a spider motif or a spider cult in the Necropolis, the objection is that they tend to go completely nuts with the spider motif to absolute tasteless overkill lol
The Heroes II use of the Spider Emblem, is far from the only use of the spider motive by Necromancers.
Darlana has it on her crown:
[url=http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Darlana]http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Darlana[/url]
Both of the 2 female models of the Necromancer whole outfits, are in a spider motive:
[url=http://www.celestialheavens.com/images/potd/big/mm8females.jpg]http://www.celestialheavens.com/images/potd/big/mm8females.jpg[/url]
I can guess you dislike the creators of Ashan, and can understand why, but sorry verriker, you at least approach outright demonization of them.
[EDIT]
Spiders, and Spider Goddesses being conncted to Death, Destiny, and Fate, is an ancient reall world tradition. For example in Ancient Egypt, the spider was associated with the goddess Neith in her aspect as spinner and weaver of destiny.
Maurice said:
Tonwen616 said:
Harpies on Enroth also may have some connection with Warhammer Dark Elves, especially that the ranks of Harpies on Enroth games, especially in MM7, have similarities to ranks to Dark Elf Witch Elves, ie Harpy Ranks are the Harpy, Harpy Hag, and Harpy Queen. Witch Elf ranks in Warhammer are Witch Elf, Hag, Death Hag, and Hag Queen. Witch Elves were also said to be reincarnated as Harpies in Warhammer...
A well-written post, Tonwen! I am just picking out the above part, to comment on it, as Verriker pretty much addressed everything else .
As it is, Heroes 3 featured numerous mythological creatures that stem from ancient Greek and Roman mythology. The Harpy is one such creature: [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpy]ancient Greek Harpy[/url]. As such, I would rather say that both games (WarHammer and Heroes) sought their inspiration from ancient mythology, rather than from eachother - at least, as far as those mythological creatures are concerned.
Thank you so much!
Well with the Harpy, I also thought they were just mythological, but the fact their ranks(Harpy, Harpy Hag, Harpy Queen) in Might & Magic VII so closelly resemble those of Witch Elves(Witch Elf, Hag, Death Hag, and Hag Queen), makes me think there might be a connection, along with there being proof some creators, like Greg Fulton, were visibly influenced by Warhammer Fantasy, and he or another member of team might have thought to combine the harpies with witch elves(who have in Warhammer connections to Harpies), as both a tribute to Warhammer, but also recreating it in a original way, like NWC did brilliantly with many concepts it was inspired by.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 07:57 PM |
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I already posted those MM pics before but people here refuse to understand or see that Vampires and Necromancers were wearing spiders underwear before Ashan. And beyond any ripoff, spider association with dead (and necropolis) is logical. They're generally present in tombs, depending of the spider their venom can kill persons and their legs looks like bony fingers.
I also mentioned the egyptian thing. The mesopotamian/egyptian necros is obviously inspired by WH as well but the Neith = Asha connection is undeniable.
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2016 08:04 PM |
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That is true. But what is also true is that the spider theme is not overused in Enroth, unlike in Ashan.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 13, 2016 09:34 PM |
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Tonwen616 said:
Yes, but you see, Tolkienian Dark Elves, don't live in the counterpart of the New World(ie Americas), like Dark Elves in boh Might& Magic VIII, and Warhammer.
And yes, Jadame is the counterpart of Americas, as seen with Inca/Maya/Aztec/Mayincatec style pyramids, for example.
Both the Sword of Frost, and Sword of Khaine, share other similarities, beside being. The Sword of Frost, shifts the limate in Vori(as well as Antagrich), like the Sword of Khaine aparently affects the The Blighted Isle, and it's suroundings.
for me actually if you're getting into nitty gritty, the North America parallel is Antagarich with the Columbus voyages out from New Sorpigal they mentioned, Europe Enroth where the settlers first were, Jadame is more like just inspired by South America alone really IMO, but that's a nitpick and not a one to one anyway lol
the thing about the Sword of Frost and all that it's a bit stupid and can't be defended even if you wanted to, after Greg Fulton left they really quickly needed to pull a cheap means out of their ass to destroy the world fast and already had Armageddon's Blade existing in the plot, so clearly most subtle and intelligent approach possible is obviously to invent some previously unmentioned opposite blade called the Sword of Frost out of nowhere, I mean it's not NWC's finest hour of imagination let's be honest, don't think I'm going to sit here and make up counterpoints for that silly stuff lol
if they really did plagiarise Warhammer there, I think it would have been plotted better (though, at least the aftermath had good storytelling) lol
it doesn't even make much sense, when Armageddon's Blade didn't exist until Lucifer dreamed it up and Khazander created it, I mean yeah you can technically have a prophecy of a sword that doesn't exist yet I guess, but I mean it was still pretty stupid to me from the start lol
Tonwen616 said:
Funny you mention David Mullich, I found this quote from him:
"Another person I was happy to meet was Greg Fulton, a new employee New World had hired to be the lead designer the Heroes of Might & Magic III team I was putting together. Greg was hired on the same day I was, and we had never met each other previously, but we quickly became fast friends. I told Greg about my plan for upgrading the franchise’s art style from its past cartoony look to one that I called "extreme fantasy." Greg showed me some artwork from the Warhammer tabletop miniatures game, proving to me that he knew exactly what I meant."
Basically confining Greg Fulton, lead designer the Heroes of Might & Magic III team, was a serious Warhammer Fan, and obviously inspired by it.
So by this point, I think similarities to Warhammer being accidental, become much less probable I think.
well spotted yeah, that is known from the same Christian Vanover interview I mentioned, like we said from Nagash one can know Warhammer was a series they were looking at, but like Sleeping Sun mentioned you have to understand the difference between being inspired and basically carbon copying stuff,
I think people will agree it's a struggle to see where Heroes 3 borrowed art from Warhammer in the final product, except maybe like the Lizardmen looking like the Skinks, Heroes 3 in the end was basically staying true to Might and Magic 6 and its Larry Elmore art direction, whereas for Heroes 5 entire creatures and a faction basically have serials filed off from Warhammer, and arguably Warcraft Necropolis thereafter lol
an area where I would criticize NWC for borderline plagiarism is Heroes 4 systems ripping off Magic the Gathering for instance, that was Gus Smedstad taking fandom a bit too far IMO lol, or Legends of Might and Magic being a Counterstrike clone, those were clearly some uninspired or lacking moments lol
Tonwen616 said:
As Gamer Workshop became an INFAMOUSLY aggressive group with lawsuits, making this situation yes, at least bit up for discussion...
the reason I say it is not up for discussion, is not merely because of the lawsuit, but because they did not even contest it or try to defend themselves, they complied with the lawsuit and even admitted the wrongdoing (not to mention got into the blame game with Nival) lol
Tonwen616 said:
Biara's storyline, is pretty clear reference to Sheltem. Both Biara and Sheltem disguise themselves as a monarch. Both are somewhat demonic(yes, Sheltem in an Android, but appeared as a Demon King and Devil King in Might & Magic I and II respectivelly.)
Both are arguably members of the Dungeon faction, while in another form(Biara as Shadya, Sheltem as Alamar, and seeing how the original MMX was supposed to go, Enroth's Sheltem being is not improbable).
These show Nival and/or Ubi known the Ancients universe fairly well, when creating Heroes V.
well, if I thought the existence of Kastore somehow being a rationale for Erwin to create the Dark Elf Dungeon was a pretty clear example of reaching, I can definitely say, that taking the character of Biara who is a demon succubus who can shapeshift, linking her to the character of Sheltem who is an android who can shapeshift, and telling me that this is convincing proof Team Fabrice researched the universe in depth, is much more weak and tenuous reaching lol
how about this, Corak is an android who is chasing down a villain and is an introspective character, Arantir is a necromancer who is chasing down a villain and is also introspective, therefore, it's logical that Arantir must have been inspired by Corak and Erwin must have played all of the games lol
eh, well, lol
it's no secret though mate, Erwin's gone on record himself several times that he didn't really know the first thing he was doing in terms of the MM lore before Marzhin came in, which is partly why Marzhin was hired, and in talks with Galaad during the fan day, he basically admitted decisions like Dark Elves and Naga were because of his liking for Warcraft and commercial desire to appeal to Warhammer and Warcraft bases which were flavor of the month at the time, not anything more complicated or cerebral to it lol
Tonwen616 said:
Also, about Zombie and Werewolf, yes they are connected, as both, are connected to vampires. Let me explain.
Modern, infective zombies, are more of a type of vampire in terms of folkloric origin, rather the the Voodoo undead. The very concept of the Infective Zombie, originated in "I Am Legend" 1954 horror fiction novel by American writer Richard Matheson, were the Zombie Apocalypse was caused by vampiric world wide infection. The creators of 1968 film Night of the Living Dead, outright admited being inspired by "I Am Legend".
In Slavic Folklore, from which the very name "vampire" originated, Vampires were often bloated, zombie like rotting creatures, or were hairy and beast like, like werewolves. To the point Vampires and Werewolves, were often interchangeable. And if they weren't the same, they were very closely connected. In the sense that if you killed a Werewolf, but didn't burn it's body, it metamorphose and rise as a Vampire. The silver weakness, was originally a purely vampiric weakness, given to werewolves first by Hollywood.
In folklore, Werewolves were rather killed by Wolfsbane.
So yeah, in a Necropolis town, from a Slavic Folklore perspecive, a three level, Zombie-> Werewolf->Vampire creature, would have complete sense.
maybe there is a misunderstanding that I wasn't clear, but please realize mate that it makes no difference to anyone's position IMO even if there literally is an obscure real world folklore where zombies literally do ritually consume sacred cat piss and transform into werewolves, because after all Erwin's spider lore is itself entirely borrowed from Sumerian mythology,
just that fact alone, doesn't somehow validate it or necessarily mean it makes complete sense for Heroes, or stops it from being considered stupid or inapplicable to the Heroes series by the fanbase, because the arguments that went on isn't whether it exists or makes sense in folklore or not, but whether it is the kind of folklore suitable to the needs of Heroes (a series where vampires and liches are supposed to be different beings with a pretty well established phenology and power hierarchy, for instance) lol
I mean if we were so concerned with applying chosen mythologies as correctly as possible at the whim of the creative director, it would be OK if he was a huge purist of Greek mythology for instance and decided that there would be only one single Minotaur in all future games, because there is only one in Greek mythology, but that wouldn't be the case, we would be pissed off what he has done to the Minotaurs because we liked the Minotaurs lol
it's worth it to have a bit of consideration for what sort of approaches are an asset to the series and not worth messing with too much for the sake of it, instead of going out and twisting or diluting them too far with questionable ideas lol
Tonwen616 said:
Sorry I don't want to be rude, but it seems you completely ignored, or overlooked what I wrote.
There are other connections between vampires and liches on Enroth. Liches in Might & Magic 7 are burned by sunlight exactly like vampires, and being burned by sunlight is an increadibly trademark vampire weakness.
And being created by ritual, that is named as if it was to create a vampire, ie “Ritual of Endless Night”, rather than a lich.
no I didn't ignore or overlook these, I just didn't pass comment on them as I don't see what the relevance is to anything,
the general contention of the fanbase has been that Erwin's lore where liches drink spider venom to turn into vampires is not very suitable for the Heroes franchise for a plethora of reasons drawn out in many threads, I don't think it's changes that contention because liches are susceptible to light magic in MM7, or because of how you may interpret the words "ritual of endless night," I don't see how that really sheds any new light on things or influences anybody's opinion lol
in the lore of Enroth and Axeoth, the vampires get set on fire and turn to ash when in the direct sunlight, the liches don't, this is clear in MM8 and Heroes 4 (even if gameplay took a liberty or two with that), look up captain Enric and the Nightshade Brazier and stuff lol
Tonwen616 said:
The Heroes II use of the Spider Emblem, is far from the only use of the spider motive by Necromancers.
Darlana has it on her crown:
http://mightandmagic.wikia.com/wiki/Darlana
Both of the 2 female models of the Necromancer whole outfits, are in a spider motive:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/images/potd/big/mm8females.jpg
well, "far from only" in so far as you have cited three minor examples over nine games set in Enroth, but again, I struggle to see the relevance of this point,
it's not a smoking gun to just point out one or two previous minor links between necromancers and spiders, because not only are they completely insignificant, but also linking the necromancers to spiders in itself was never the issue at hand, like I have explained already, I think the fanbase is fine with an occasional weird motif in a faction for flavour, of lions, spiders, griffins, wolves, ouroboros or anything, in fact it can be give a pretty cool twist on the faction, as long as they don't overdo it to the extreme and turn it into a big parody, where spiders start to consume the faction in every respect and beat us over the head lol
basically while you make some valid points, interesting notes and parallels, and kudos on that, personally I think you may be missing the mark on what exactly you are seeking to refute in some spots, because much of it has little to do with disputes I've seen lol
Tonwen616 said:
I can guess you dislike the creators of Ashan, and can understand why, but sorry verriker, you at least approach outright demonization of them.
seriously though, that's up to you to judge, they will get honest criticism from me where warranted where they screw up, but like everyone will agree, if they were at least capable enough to put out a quality Heroes game I don't think much "demonization" would be able to hold water lol
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted August 14, 2016 12:13 AM |
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I think what some of the previous posters are missing is that for most of us who criticise the direction the series have taken under Ubi and Team Erwan, this isn't about who plagiarises the most. Did NWC take inspiration from other fantasy (and science fiction) sources? Yes. Did the content feel plagiarised from those? No, not for me at least. They did something original with it - which the many theme based factions like Dungeon/Asylum, Tower/Academy Fortress and even H3 Conflux was a testament to. It didn't seem like a blatant rip of from another series, like H5's Dungeon and H7's Necropolis does. Even the (somewhat lame IMHO) introduction of Jadame's dark elves in MM8 was done in a way not blatantly resembling DnD or anything else in particular, they where just red-skinned elves.
I'm afraid that the choices made by Ubi/Erwin is resulting in the dumbing down of the setting, not just the stories or details like Spider Dragon Godesses but the apparently fact that they seem to be deliberately targeting the same audience (younger teen males) that plays WoW, even to the point of directly plagiarising a creature (koblod) well known for all low-level WoW players.
It feels like they took something valuable, something that was unique and had meaning, depth, and made McFantasy out of it. Or rather, tried to do it but failed doing even that. The race-based factions is part of this generification. Concepts like shared values, customs or religions, a shared theme seems to advanced and intellectual for the audience Ubi/Team Erwan think their aiming for. For reference, I started playing HoMM 3 when I was around 7 years old, and I can't say it ever bothered me the least. The alignment system in H4 was obviously inspired by MtG, but again - the resemblance wasn't that striking. To an extent, I guess MtG was at least a rather logical source of inspiration for M&M as it shares many characteristics: being very much open for interpretation and imagination and all-around being a more mature setting.
I could live with the new world, even though I'd still miss the great characters we met in Heroes 4's main campaigns, but oh well. I enjoyed H5 to an extent. The skill system was the absolutely best of the series, only to be scrapped in favour of something that totally lacks depth in H6/7. I'm happy that some of the factions are getting less race-based. I get that neither the new universe, nor the town or units designs are the main reasons for the big decline of the M&M community - which is apparent on both CH and the Ubi forums as well - but bug-ridden, horribly designed games that took away the strongest features of HoMM's strategic and tactical gameplay, as well the habit of routinely ignoring or even insulting fans, even after asking for feedback from specifically appointed fans a lot less "reactionary" and Erwinosceptic than myself.
But the destruction of the series "spirit" is part of that as well. They seem to think of their audience as stupidos who will pay **sloads of cash for bug-ridden (to the point of virtually unplayable), badly designed, spiritually and intellectually abysmal products if we only get cool battle animations and ladies with unnatural body proportions. Let's be better than that!
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 14, 2016 02:44 AM |
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Edited by Momo at 15:39, 14 Aug 2016.
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So many interesting issues...
verriker said:
in NWC to be a vampire you are still "handsome" and have more powers but must drink blood and are susceptible to all sorts of hazards, whereas that to become a lich you gain massive powers but must sacrifice your earthly flesh and bone forever, and look like death, those are two different options to become the undead, and two different subcultures of undead which is more diverse and interesting,
That is one subject in which I think a bit of objectivity may be called for, despite being in a greater context (lore and settings) that has a lot to do with tastes.
You see, verriker here is correct: in NWC -but also, in most modern fantasy- becoming a lich or a vampire means taking two different paths to undeath. Vampires avoid death because they want to retain their physical existence (and thus, ability to feel and experience sensations and emotions) and has such have many physical weaknesses but are still somewhat connected to their former humanity; Liches become immortal because they seek to trascend death and keep living to keep researchin on higher matters, forbidden knowledge, etc and in doing so they become a very persistent exsitance but keep very little of their humanity if anything.
This is what makes these two different and in a way opposite form of undead.
It is objective that making lich and vampire the same creature (or rather, two phases of the same creature) is meant to remove the uniqueness and diversity from both to present a more simplified and understandable lore. Now here one may step in and says "screw uniqueness, I like simplicity", but this is nonetheless what they strived to obtain: less diversity, more accessibility (or something).
I think many could agree it was a misstep and even if you don't, you're praising the least creative and fertile of decisions on this subject: know that.
EnergyZ said:
I am tired of this argument. Let me ask you, what exactly should be like Heroes III?
A highly replayable title with strategic depth that increases and not decreases the most you play it, an array of diverse situations presented (just think how many mini-quest and mini-plots there are in a single map), which ran smoothly and quickly most of the time, and comes with easy ways for the community to contribute to the game (easy modding, map editor).
As you can see I am not even barely touching Ashan, Erwan LeBreton's "vision", the many innovations and controversial choices of the latest chapters.
And yet you should agree that no HOMM5, 6 or 7 give you what I described (HOMM5 went close after many fixings). And that means the decline in quality.
AnkVaati said:
The alignment system in H4 was obviously inspired by MtG, but again - the resemblance wasn't that striking.
Oh! So I'm not the only one who saw that similarity. So cool! People so often disagree with me whenever I say it looked like a clear source of inspiration.
Mytical said:
If you are expecting a flawless, masterwork game.. you won't find it here. What you will find is that, if you just let yourself go, you can look at a clock and say "I've been playing HOW long?!"
Yeah, kinda like this morning. I knew a harsh ship was going to await me at the restaurant so I decided to play a bit to relax before entering the kitchen. Well the game first kicked me out three times (no synchro with Ubi-Big Brother authenticating my game for the 10th time) Then it took ten minutes to get into the game, which then promptly crashed and froze the whole PC.
You're right, in a way: I looked at the clock and asked myself: "I'm here since HOW LONG?"
Ah, good times, they were.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 14, 2016 02:28 PM |
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Momo said:
Oh! So I'm not the only one who saw that similarity. So cool! People so often disagree with me whenever I say it looked like a clear source of inspiration.
you can tell them they're wrong objectively though, director of the game admitted it was a big influence lol
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 14, 2016 05:27 PM |
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Edited by cori14 at 17:28, 14 Aug 2016.
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So cool hearing you guys talk about these things, makes me wonder how many times did you play through all those RPGs and TBS games from the franchise 
Btw, are there any sites on the web where I could read about the old Might and Magic characters, stories or any lore related stuff? Where do you guys get your stuff when something needs to be refreshed about the old universe?
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted August 14, 2016 06:22 PM |
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 14, 2016 06:54 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 18:55, 14 Aug 2016.
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cori14 said:
Btw, are there any sites on the web where I could read about the old Might and Magic characters, stories or any lore related stuff? Where do you guys get your stuff when something needs to be refreshed about the old universe?
Cepheus's Basic lesson in faction lore is a nice read, but if you really want to know good I guess there is no other way than to dive into the MM games; man when I think that if Ubi hadn't screwed up so much with the brand we could have had remasters/remakes of MMVI, VII & VIII...
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 01:55 AM |
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I wonder if Fahada/Khalida story would have been H6 Academy campaign (had we gotten Academy ofc). I mean, it features Bluebeak.
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted August 15, 2016 11:15 AM |
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GenyaArikado said:
I wonder if Fahada/Khalida story would have been H6 Academy campaign (had we gotten Academy ofc). I mean, it features Bluebeak.
Very good question. I doubt Slava was planned to have 6 children. In case you're right, the dialogues could have been very interesting in that campaign.
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted August 15, 2016 11:26 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 11:29, 15 Aug 2016.
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With academy cut early on, finding a story outline would be doubtful at best. Even in H7 the story was written very very late.
Bluebeak's involvement does't say much, marzhin has always liked adding secondary characters or cameos.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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cori14
Adventuring Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 11:31 AM |
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Antalyan said:
Might and magic wikia
Celestial heavens
Acidcave (PL)
Worldofheroes (CZ)
Thanks! But sadly there's not much there on the wiki and on CH. And the other two are not in English so I can't read it 
Galaad said:
Cepheus's Basic lesson in faction lore is a nice read, but if you really want to know good I guess there is no other way than to dive into the MM games; man when I think that if Ubi hadn't screwed up so much with the brand we could have had remasters/remakes of MMVI, VII & VIII...
Thanks to you too! I'll definitely read it.
I played MM6 and 7 (but not till the end), and the lore is very interesting, sadly the games are hard to get into these days, so I can't play them through one after the other. (Again MM6 and 7 was very interesting)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
