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lordgraa
Promising
Famous Hero
The Whisperer
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posted August 15, 2016 11:44 AM |
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Edited by lordgraa at 11:46, 15 Aug 2016.
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cori14 said:
I played MM6 and 7 (but not till the end), and the lore is very interesting, sadly the games are hard to get into these days, so I can't play them through one after the other. (Again MM6 and 7 was very interesting)
Might and Magic I, II, III, IV, V, VI
EDIT: ah, never mind, I just misunderstood your statement... mondays  
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World of Heroes (Czech fansite)
The Shadows Over Ashan (H7 community DLC)
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 12:43 PM |
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foxxxer said:
Bitula, I’m not trying to prove you wrong or something I just want to express an opinion about the points you wrote down. It’s more than clear that those points (except 4 and 6) are more...
There is a difference between the supposedly poor execution of H7 development and what makes a Heroes game good in general. What I was saying, is that the supposed failure of H7 is not due to not following some HC visions which I enumerated IF it is valid (or you accept) to root a new Heroes game from H5 ALONE. To say so:
1) Mixed factions (value shared mix of creatures without some physiological or fantasy literature based commons like Race). It is simply not true that this is required for a good Homm game.
2) „vague description”. It is simply not true that definitive background, setting, lore or story spoils the atmosphere of a good Homm game.
3) “lore affects game play mechanics” – If correctly executed, this does not hinder a Homm game to be successful (I think this was also mentioned by someone from here, I think JJ)
4) “Too much magic schools” – It is maybe hard but not impossible to balance a game with 7 magic schools. In general making less of something is streamlining, which I dislike.
5) “Dislike of classes” – You mentioned yourself. Class system in itself is not something which cannot belong to a Homm game.
6) “Expert AI is essential” – I don’t think that most fans play Heroes to exercise their mind. It’s not a sport like chess. And this, in itself, doesn’t make the fan casual.
7) “Bad graphics/design” – Yes, you can’t compare 3D to 2D. I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself. Also personally I don’t like the design of H3 figures.
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AnkVaati
Famous Hero
Nighonese National Front
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posted August 15, 2016 12:45 PM |
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Bitula said:
I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself.
Care to elaborate on that?
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Ank's Old School (kinda) H8 proposal <- best thing evvah, trust me
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Pol
Known Hero
.^.
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posted August 15, 2016 12:54 PM |
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Edited by Pol at 12:54, 15 Aug 2016.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 15, 2016 01:04 PM |
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aside just playing through the games during day job, I also got a big amount of knowledge for the lore, just from reading old bickering wars of lore at Celestial Heavens forum lol
be wary however, Avonu and Sandro400 may come in and throw shade on you or tell you you are a complete ******* and a cheat if you learn about lore from reading past discussions of lore experts, well they did that to me for some reason anyway lol
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 01:08 PM |
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The whole discussion is all nice and well, but I think pretty much no one would give a snow about lore and Ashan and Dragons Gods and spiders, if the games were great.
And while it's true that H5 took a year and two expansions to shine, their patches, say, for the change in Necromancy mechanics, introducing dark energy and changing every living creature into a specific undead, had the advantage to WORK - which has been true for H6 as well, mind you -, whereas in this case we look at a patch promising to completely change the skill system, adding 5 more skills to every class's skill wheel, and then it doesn't work, because picked skills new for a skill wheel disappear in the saving process (which actually means, nothing has changed, since if you want to not lose skills you have to keep to the old ones.
I find that pretty unbelieavable - wasn't that feature tested? - and we hear nothing about a patch for the patch.
So it's just one OMG effect after the next, which means, the whole debate is completely irrelevant, because even if the lore and the factions and Ashan and all stories were coherent and great and original, there still was no game you could play.
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Momo
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 01:13 PM |
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Edited by Momo at 13:18, 15 Aug 2016.
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JollyJoker said:
the whole debate is completely irrelevant, because even if the lore and the factions and Ashan and all stories were coherent and great and original, there still was no game you could play.
My point really.
Bitula said:
1) Mixed factions (value shared mix of creatures without some physiological or fantasy literature based commons like Race). It is simply not true that this is required for a good Homm game.
2) „vague description”. It is simply not true that definitive background, setting, lore or story spoils the atmosphere of a good Homm game.
3) “lore affects game play mechanics” – If correctly executed, this does not hinder a Homm game to be successful (I think this was also mentioned by someone from here, I think JJ)
4) “Too much magic schools” – It is maybe hard but not impossible to balance a game with 7 magic schools. In general making less of something is streamlining, which I dislike.
5) “Dislike of classes” – You mentioned yourself. Class system in itself is not something which cannot belong to a Homm game.
6) “Expert AI is essential” – I don’t think that most fans play Heroes to exercise their mind. It’s not a sport like chess. And this, in itself, doesn’t make the fan casual.
7) “Bad graphics/design” – Yes, you can’t compare 3D to 2D. I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself. Also personally I don’t like the design of H3 figures.
I am sorry to say, I really disagree with this post.
From 1) to 5) are merely matters of tastes. I hardly think a vast majority of fans would say these are "necessary requirements" for a good HOMM game nowadays. You could do or don't most of these points, I don't think that decides the quality of a game, or even an HOMM game.
6) is a bit different. It doesn't matter if YOU don't enjoy a competitive AI or not. I don't play multiplayer, ever, I just play campaigns and hotseats, it doesn't mean you can sell a multiplayer game at 50E and above where multiplayer doesn't work or goes offline frequently or that I should be fine with it just because I don't use the multiplayer function. Similarly, for such a pricetag you MUST offer a decent AI, no matter how much one asks for it or even notice if it isn't there. Not developing an AI who is able to stand his ground means, objectively, you're making a sloppy work. And also, you are being a bit intellectually dishonest in calling it "An Expert AI". Everybody knows it's extremely hard to make an AI that is actually "expert" in strategic gaming and most players don't need "expertise" to have a good game: I have an harsh time combating the Normal-level AI of Starcraft, and yet any decent Starcraft player will tell you that the AI of Starcraft sucks badly. But in assuming (or rather pretending) that we are talking of expertise you are making your point stronger by distorting ours. The AI is not "non-Expert", the AI is often simply retarded. It disperses its troops without reasons, forgets to pick up stuff and flag mines, avoid attacking where it clearly has not much chances if it doesn't do so, sends its own units to suicide instead of waiting or defending, and so on. In both HOMM5 and 6 it took many patches before it was actually able to tell apart a grenade from a pineapple. If you like fighting against a powerless opponent and winning meaningless battles, that's up to you. For the price requested, the devs shall give you an AI that can actually play the game. Not with expertise, but with dignity.
7) is also controversial in two ways. First, many games have been developed with 2d recently and still scored huge numbers in critics and sales; and don't forget that Starcraft (1) and HOMM (3) are both 2d and still vastly more appreciated than HOMM5-6-7. It is really hard to defend the statement that 2d alone drives people to avoid a game. That said, one could be all in favor of 3D, for sure. Who doesn't love a good 3D graphics? The problem comes when the devs justify lack of content and slugginess of the game with lacks of funds and software power. In that case one HAS to wonder why they have to go with such a baroque 3D work as HOMM6 (and 7 to a lesser extent) when they cannot afford a decent coder or a rendering that actually works. So yeah - no one says a good HOMM is mandatory to be in 2D, but if the price to pay for 3D is what we have now, I'd rather have a good 2D title.
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 15, 2016 01:20 PM |
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Bitula said:
I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself.
If they made a 2D or 2.5D they would have my money for one. My single dream is for someone to pick the original Heroes 5 where NWC left them and by some kind of Kickstarter campaign shape it into a worthy successor. No Ubi involved of course...
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 15, 2016 01:25 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 13:25, 15 Aug 2016.
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Bitula said:
1) Mixed factions (value shared mix of creatures without some physiological or fantasy literature based commons like Race). It is simply not true that this is required for a good Homm game.
I tend to agree, in the sense that factions do need cohesion. A common theme that unites the creatures within the faction in a logical way. Whether that's a racial theme or environmental theme doesn't matter. A mix might even be nice, something that was already written by JJ too, I think.
Quote:
2) „vague description”. It is simply not true that definitive background, setting, lore or story spoils the atmosphere of a good Homm game.
3) “lore affects game play mechanics” – If correctly executed, this does not hinder a Homm game to be successful (I think this was also mentioned by someone from here, I think JJ)
Yes and no. Personally, I feel that the lore is too much on the foreground, dictating how things are in the world of Ashan. Lore should be in the background and form the soil on which the current day adventures within the game world can take root and grow. Make the soil too compact and dominant and you choke any chance of growth based on it (point in case is that Ashan feels stale if you consider Heroes 6 and 7). Make it too loose, lacking cohesion, and it all falls apart like loose sand. You need something of a middle ground.
Lore should essentially be a rough outline that tells you, as the player, how the conditions came to be that you're facing when you start playing the game at day 1, week 1, month 1.
Quote:
4) “Too much magic schools” – It is maybe hard but not impossible to balance a game with 7 magic schools. In general making less of something is streamlining, which I dislike.
There's a certain sweet spot with regards to the number of magic schools. Given how factions have an affinity (or aversion) to specific magic schools, the number of factions and number of magic schools share a relation. Another relation exists in the form of the total number of spells per school and how this creates a distribution within the Mage Guilds. And a further relation exists in the various Magic Skills that Heroes can learn, which also relates to spell school affinity and aversion. If you tweak one such number, the areas related to it are all affected accordingly. While it's not impossible to balance that within the game, higher numbers do make it harder to achieve it.
Quote:
5) “Dislike of classes” – You mentioned yourself. Class system in itself is not something which cannot belong to a Homm game.
Considering how Heroes games revolve around developing your Hero to your liking, I'd say a class system might work. The best form would probably be something like Heroes 4, which had a relatively dynamic class system, as opposed to the static system we had in previous titles. Still, Heroes is a strategy game at its core, not a role playing game, so the class system shouldn't be overly elaborate either.
Quote:
6) “Expert AI is essential” – I don’t think that most fans play Heroes to exercise their mind. It’s not a sport like chess. And this, in itself, doesn’t make the fan casual.
Most people play Heroes in single player form, I guess. This means they're going to be facing off against the AI most of the time. Even in multiplayer games, the players will face off against neutral stacks alot, which are controlled by that same AI. Not everyone is of the same tactical and strategical level and such, the AI should also have various levels to accomodate for those differences. For some people, even Easy is (almost) too hard, while others only start to warm up on Hard difficulty. Personal preference and in order to appeal to the various desires and needs - rather than a single specific skill level - should they cater to players of various play skills.
Quote:
7) “Bad graphics/design” – Yes, you can’t compare 3D to 2D. I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself. Also personally I don’t like the design of H3 figures.
The issue isn't about 2D or 3D, it's about the execution. If you want to see bad execution of 3D adventure maps, look at H5, H6 and H7. If you want to look at good execution of 3D adventure maps, look at Age of Wonders 3. Personal preference aside, AoW3 shows everything in clear cut ways in 3D just like Heroes3 did in 2D. How the dev team managed to botch that concept in H5, H6 and H7 is something I can't understand, other than that they can't understand how the adventure maps of Heroes games were setup to begin with: symbolic instead of realistic.
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The last Reasonable Steward of Good Game Design and a Responsible Hero of HC. - Verriker
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JollyJoker
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 01:52 PM |
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Let's be careful about magic and sweet spots and number of them, because bottom line is, that H3 didn't strike the balance between Might and Magic (Might is OP, because it can get mass spells just as easily as Magic heroes which shouldn't be the case), while H5 circumvented the problem by having only one very specific hero class per faction and tailoring magic and faction skill to fit.
Now, if you want might and magic heroes, limiting the magic of a town in some way (both H5 and H7 allow to pick schools for guaranteed spells), the advantage of this benefits might heroes more, because OBVIOUSLY the favored magic of a town must also be a higher-percentage skill of the might hero.
Say, we go back to 2 classes per faction, and say might Haven hero would be Knight - now, no matter whether we have H5 or H7 system, Light Magic would not only be Haven's favorite, but also Knight's favorite magic skill, and since he can have points in Power and Knowledge, he must also have a chance to pick that up.
So without going to deep into this, you have to take a step back from what was and think in more original ways, because you cannot really solve this dilemma with what there is.
Also, you want DIVERSITY, and you want LOTS of spells, don't you - I mean, H4 had 5 magic schools and over 100 spells and playing magic heroes in H4 is just a lot of fun.
Being forced into catering for 7 magic schools should have therefore made them go into the tank and really put some effort into things in that regard.
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Galaad
Hero of Order
Li mort as morz, li vif as vis
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posted August 15, 2016 02:19 PM |
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Edited by Galaad at 14:21, 15 Aug 2016.
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PS I've linked the lore debate to the lore thread, please use it for further lore discussions, thanks. 
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Bitula
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 02:32 PM |
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@momo:
What I wrote on the left side, is what I think is not a mandatory attribute of a good heroes game. And what I think is the vocal HC vision of a good Homm game.
What I wrote on the right side is my personal opinion which is again not a mandatory attribute of a good heroes game.
Regarding AI: I mean specifically expert AI. This is in connection with QT posts, where it’s suggested, that any good heroes game must have QT level super AI. I do agree of course that the AI should be good enough (mediocre on a global scientific scale) for a certain game, so it can’t be dumb and bugged, but it’s not important for it to have “professional chess AI” level quality.
@Maurice
Yes I mostly agree with what you are saying. Since neither side is a mandatory property of a Heroes game, in most cases probably the middle ground makes most sense. Regarding graphics: 2D is better than poorly implemented 3D, sure, but well executed 3D beats 2D in current age of gaming and also my preference.
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frostymuaddib
Promising
Supreme Hero
育碧是白痴
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posted August 15, 2016 02:36 PM |
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Although there were plenty of good posts regarding this, I'll toss in my two cents.
Bitula said:
1) Mixed factions (value shared mix of creatures without some physiological or fantasy literature based commons like Race). It is simply not true that this is required for a good Homm game.
This is pure and simple a matter of taste. I prefered mixed factions and I also liked how different NWC games had different lineups throughout the games: Wizards in H2 had halflings, boars, rocs, golems, mages and titans. And, they were wasteland-themed. H3 brought snow based wizards with: gremlins, gargoyles, golems, mages, genies, nagas and titans. So there was lineup difference, and yet there were few iconic creatures left. H4 brought more changes: halflings were back, dwarves came to order town, we also had golems, mages, nagas, genies, titans and dragon golems. My point is, things were dynamic, With H6 and H7, things are static, and for me boring...
Bitula said:
2) „vague description”. It is simply not true that definitive background, setting, lore or story spoils the atmosphere of a good Homm game.
I understand your point, but I have a different view on this. A good setting, background, lore and story can only increase my gameplay experience. I like games that have good story, and tend to avoid the ones without. It is the first thing that makes me want to play the game. When the story is well written and presented, playing the campaigns and scenarios allow me to learn more about gameplay and then continue with skirmish scenarios and multiplayer (I never liked multiplayer games).
The problem with Ashan games is that the storytelling is idiotic (H5) and stupid (H6) - again this is my opinion. In H5 we had Griffin eternal, *random spell is being cast*, Agrael = Raelag, stupid flower-sniffers and star gaing poets, everyone against the demons... The story element was 0. H6 came with a little better storytelling, that was an improvement, but had two major flaws, imo: first, again, everyone is against demons, second everything revolves around Griffin kids, because they are the most important thing on ashan beside spiders. The story itself was unoriginal and hence boring. The best stories were the ones from dlcs, imo.
As for ashan lore, I won't comment much. I'll just say: everyone is beastmen, and spiders are everywhoere.
Bitula said:
3) “lore affects game play mechanics” – If correctly executed, this does not hinder a Homm game to be successful (I think this was also mentioned by someone from here, I think JJ)
With this I agree. But that is only theory (unfortunately). What team Erwin did was not even poor execution. They allowed the lore to influence the game on purpose (they did that with H6 and continued with H7).
Bitula said:
4) “Too much magic schools” – It is maybe hard but not impossible to balance a game with 7 magic schools. In general making less of something is streamlining, which I dislike.
I love more mechanics and options, but for now we have situation with seven magic schools that failed in both games (H6 and H7), we have 4 magic schools in H5 and H3 and we had something between: H4 with 5 schools. I liked the H4 and H5 approach to schools: each felt distinctive (beyond animation of the spells). I'm not saying that those are perfect executions of spell systems, but it was the way to go, imo. The problem with 7 schools is that you need to create enough spells, different and useful spells, for each of the school, and I did not see that in H7 or H6. Oh, and prohibiting certain classes to not be able to learn specific spell schools because of the lore is plainly idiotic.
Bitula said:
5) “Dislike of classes” – You mentioned yourself. Class system in itself is not something which cannot belong to a Homm game.
Classes and hero specs are cool, but again, they must be executed well. H7 has 3 might and 3 magic classes per faction, and I think that is too much (imo, it is the result of the restricted and stupid skill system). Magnomagus did a way better job for H5.5 with three classes.
Bitula said:
6) “Expert AI is essential” – I don’t think that most fans play Heroes to exercise their mind. It’s not a sport like chess. And this, in itself, doesn’t make the fan casual.
That is your opinion. But, not everyone plays multiplayer (although ai is important for it, too) and not everyone likes games that present no challenge. Long time ago, in the early days of the gaming industry, something magnificent was discovered. A difficulty setting. It was used to satisfy players like you (that do not need challenging AI) and, at the same time, it was able to satisfy players that like challenge. H6 and H7 tried to use that discovery, but failed miserably.
Bitula said:
7) “Bad graphics/design” – Yes, you can’t compare 3D to 2D. I believe 2D is over in this domain, and it is probably true, that basing a new Homm game on 2D would turn away the potential majority of fans, including myself. Also personally I don’t like the design of H3 figures.
This is again matter of taste. I must say that I never understood people who first look at graphics and then on the rest of the game. But that is because gameplay is more important for me. As for design, we must agree that it is a form of art. As it is form of art, there are some things that look good (as piece of art) and that look bad. Putting spiders everywhere (and even making entire city a giant spider) is not very good, in artistic sense.
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"Occam's shuriken: when the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas." -- Dr. Gordon Freeman (Freeman's Mind)
"lol" -- VERRIKER VON ERWINSSEN
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3lion
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 04:20 PM |
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vitirr
Known Hero
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posted August 15, 2016 05:20 PM |
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"This is like an RTS but totally turn based"
https://youtu.be/pEHVvrlO_ks?t=45
Erwan Lebreton, like a game producer but totally different 
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 15, 2016 05:21 PM |
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Valen-Teen
Famous Hero
UFOlolOgist
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posted August 15, 2016 05:25 PM |
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Erwan Lebreton was said that they were making new Warcraft-like game =
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Our hopes for Heroes VIII!
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GreenBread
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 15, 2016 06:14 PM |
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its clear that it is a financial problem the creature design is great but not the map design the mines the castle the grass it look like some beta not a full designed ... for the gameplay it is not even similar to heroes 6witch i liked its gamoeplay and strategy ,it is more like 5 a bad version of heroes 5 i played some academy campaign and it is like every creature for himself ,creatures are not supporting each other and evry battle is won the same using that ice bolt spell......i dont wish for a heroes 8 right now i m hopping that they make h5 and h6 extended adding more factions .
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sandro400
Promising
Supreme Hero
Shadow of Death
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posted August 15, 2016 06:38 PM |
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verriker said:
be wary however, Avonu and Sandro400 may come in and throw shade on you or tell you you are a complete ******* and a cheat if you learn about lore from reading past discussions of lore experts, well they did that to me for some reason anyway lol
Awww, it's almost sweet that you still remember me after so much time. ^^
Of course, if I kindly ask you to remind me when I "threw shade on you or told you you are a complete ******* and a cheat if you learn about lore from reading past discussions of lore experts", you'll kindly remind me, won't you? ^^
(Obviously, I speak only on behalf of myself, not Avonu as well).
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Let's play poker game, lich-style!
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Antalyan
Promising
Supreme Hero
H7 Forever
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posted August 15, 2016 06:56 PM |
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3lion said:
Just rewatched first gameplay video of Heroes VII from Gamescom 2014: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEHVvrlO_ks
I wonder why did they completely remove obstacles from the battle arenas? And why this beautiful flyby around the arena are gone?
No idea and very difficult to understand as it seems they were once in the game.
But also graphics looks like better than in the real game (no idea why again as this was the video exactly from the game).
I would like to play this map from Gamescom a lot
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Important H7 tips & tricks
H7 Community Patch (UCP)
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
