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SoilBurn
Known Hero
BurnsSoil
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posted August 13, 2016 01:57 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:26, 13 Aug 2016.
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Why do you think I believe that the gender of units is important? I just happen to like female units in H6/H7 and I want to see more of them. Not because they are female. But because of the way that they are depicted, it appeals to me from an art direction perspective. But that is my personal preference, I never asked from anyone to agree with it.
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ErevasTheElder
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 02:09 PM |
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You know what, I always liked to have all male units in my towns, I don't know. Female units on the battlefield never really made sense to me, you know. I would therefore urge the next developers to skip the feminine additions to heroes 8.
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Avirosb
Promising
Legendary Hero
No longer on vacation
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posted August 13, 2016 02:09 PM |
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted August 13, 2016 02:20 PM |
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Edited by Maurice at 14:27, 13 Aug 2016.
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Ok, that's enough. I thought I was very clear in my message yesterday, but apparently that wasn't enough.
Cleaning the thread once again. Posting opinions is fine. Posting strongly worded opinions is fine. Riling up other members is not, regardless of which side of the fence you're on. I've deleted all off-topic banter that only served to rile up the conversation we assumed was killed off yesterday.
Apologies if I deleted something worthwhile in that mix-up.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 02:36 PM |
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That mobile game looks pretty cool, hope it gets exported. Nice mashup of Ashan and OldVerse aesthetics (God bless because Catherine armor was trash)
Where is dungeon tho -.- Mutare needs a visual update as well (that...mullet...eugh)
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blob2
Undefeatable Hero
Blob-Ohmos the Second
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posted August 13, 2016 02:39 PM |
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Edited by blob2 at 14:40, 13 Aug 2016.
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Hate to admit it, but as a mobile game it looks quite good. 'Warcraft' style suits this kind of games. And they'll probably earn a lot with it (like I said, a 'small' number of Chinese buyers equals a lot of buyers elswhere numbers-wise), so they will move their assets to the Chinese market leaving us in the sticks... 'we haters had it coming, didn't we  ?'.
The thing that bothers me is how they've mixed both Enroth and Ahsan universes together (Gelu, Solmyr?). I don't like it cause it feels really cheap on their behalf and in contradiction with what they said. What happened to their 'Ashan is the NEW setting and we will build around it' policy?
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The_Green_Drag
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 02:41 PM |
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I guess this would be the first time they lied 
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Stevie
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 02:41 PM |
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 02:43 PM |
bonus applied by Maurice on 13 Aug 2016. |
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Hmmm guys I noticed you have been criticizing Ubisoft, Nival, and other companies who took care over the series, after NWC, and while I agree there had been some mistakes and Heoes VII is just one big problem, but I don't find some of the accusations exactly just. For example, inspiration from Warhammer and the lich-vampire connection?
Already present in NWC games, at least since Might & Magic VI.
But to elaborate, let's start from Warhammer and elves.
You see, the elves of ,Antagarich and Jadame, and how they fragmented, already shown strong similarities to Warhammer elves. The original Elves(High Elves in Warhammer, Pure-Blood Elves on Enroth) lived on an isolated Island to the West( Ulthuan in Warhammer, Vori on Enroth). Both fragmented into the original Elves(High Elves and Pure-Bloods) a Wood Elf faction that lives on the "main" continent in the series(The Old World in Warhammer, Antagarich on Enroth), and a Dark Elf faction that lives on especially, the counterpart of Americas of sorts(the Dark Elves living in the New World, specifically Naggaroth in Warhammer, Dark Elves on Jadame on Enroth). The original Elves(High Elves and Pure-Bloods) both also have world ending swords, with prophecies of apocalypse connected to them(Sword of Khaine, also known as Widowmaker and Godslayer in Warhammer, the Sword of Frost on Enroth).
Now to other similarities. In Heroes III, we have three Heroes, who are essentially, references to Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000:
-Nagash
http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Nagash
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nagash
-Gretchin
http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Gretchin
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gretchin
-Malekith
http://heroes.thelazy.net/wiki/Malekith
http://whfb.lexicanum.com/wiki/Malekith
But Malekith may be also named after the character from Marvel comics character:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malekith_the_Accursed
But it's notable, that both prototypes for this Dungeon Hero, are Kings of Dark Elves...
I wonder of Malekith wasn't originally to be intended as elven, only changed to Minotaur in production, due to fear of being accused of copyright infringement. He has even an odd description as if done hastily without much research into the Antagarich Minotaurs "One would expect a minotaur to be a fierce warrior, but Malekith wields magic with a fury that rivals the strength of the land's best mages."
Again, this odd, as there is as much Minotaur Warlocks in Heroes III(Deemer, Darkstrom, and Malekith himself), as human ones(Jeddite, Sephinroth and Alamar), in MM6 to MM8 Minotaurs have access to magic, and there are a lot of Minotaur sorcerers in Heroes IV.
So yeah, I'm going into the controversial, Dungeon being Dark Elves on Ashan.
Malekith the Minotaur, isn't the only connection between the Dungeon, and Warhammer Dark Elves.
Harpies on Enroth also may have some connection with Warhammer Dark Elves, especially that the ranks of Harpies on Enroth games, especially in MM7, have similarities to ranks to Dark Elf Witch Elves, ie Harpy Ranks are the Harpy, Harpy Hag, and Harpy Queen. Witch Elf ranks in Warhammer are Witch Elf, Hag, Death Hag, and Hag Queen. Witch Elves were also said to be reincarnated as Harpies in Warhammer...
The upgrade to a Harpy in Heroes III, is a Harpy Hag, again possibly referencing a Hag, is a higher ranked Witch Elf, and even the Harpy Monster Type in Might & Magic 6(Harpy, Harpy Hag, Harpy Witch), might be a reference to Witch Elves, with the Witch Hag being a reference to Witch Elves themselves.
The Blood Maiden/Blood Fury/Blood Sister, from Heroes V is based on a Witch elf from Warhammer, but function like Harpies in Heroes III, but it all makes sense with the stuff I pointed before.
About Heroes IV, while the Witch King advanced Class, connected to the Heroes IV Dungeon, while possibly based after the more known Witch King of Lord of the Rigs, seeing the previous connections, might be also based on the Witch King of Warhammer - again Malekith
Even the Silence, is extremely similar to a crucial even in Warhammer Fantasy, the collapse of the Polar Warp Gates.
Both the planet in Warhammer Fantasy, as worlds in Might & Magic, were colonized, and seeded with life by extremely old, technologically advanced, and powerful space faring species(Old Ones in Warhammer, Ancients in Might & Magic). Both connected their worlds with a portal network, which broke down in connection with Demons(although the Demons in Warhammer, are literal demons, not aliens like Kreegans).
You may wonder why NWC took inspiration from Warhammer, since Might & Magic 6?
Well, it's actually very common in fantasy games, both tabletop, and computer/console ones, to take inspiration fro other, older Fantasy, and Sci-Fi works. D&D took inspiration from Tolkien, Poul Anderson, Michael Moorcock etc. Warhammer took inspiration from Tolkien, Poul Anderson, Michael Moorcock and D&D. And the chain reaction goes on.
Guys at NWC, probably also noticed that via convergent ideas, both Might & Magic and Warhammer Fantasy worlds, are Fantasy worlds with a Sci-Fi background, and guessed that's neat.
Also, Warhammer Fantasy and 40K, also took some inspiration Might & Magic, although curiously, mostly Ubi games. The Dark Elves Warhammer, well Age of Sigmar, now worship a Dragon God of Shadows. Well doesn't THAT sound familiar.
Before that, the Sorceress miniature design in Warhammer, was reworked in about in Shadya's and Dungeon Witches likeness.
Also a bit more about Dungeons, or rather Warlocks, in Heroes I and II, specifically one Warlock – Kastore. This guy, is strange. He looks like a Terran, or Xeen Elf, not like Elves presented in the first two heroes games, who had light, pink skin, like Vatawna, Ector or the elf units. And he works with Archibald, like latter does the Terran Kastore. But he's DECADES to early. Of course it's also possible that like Heroes of Cron, Kastore did some time traveling after Might & Magic VII...
But still, excluding that, he might be Dark Elf as they have the closest skin tone(ie dark), if still different(blue-gray for Kastore, red-brown for Dark Elves).
Still, I think Kastore was also crucial for Nival and Ubi deciding to make Dungeon a Dark Elf faction, along with the above stuff.
But moving on. The Vampire-Lich connection? Also present since Might & Magic VI. The ritual to become a Lich, is called "Ritual of Endless Night", which sound something that would transform into a vampire(ie you would be eternally walking the night, or be burned to ash by the sunlight...).
In Might & Magic VII, Liches are burned by sunlight, like vampires.
About Necromancers, and spider goddesses, the Spider, was the Necromancers emblem since Heroes II, were they first appeared as a faction:
http://www.h2.acidcave.net/sphinx/homm_ii_necromancer_emblem_by_ashirox.png
And that's for now...
Still, you might argue NWC was still more subtle and imaginative when taking inspiration from Warhammer, than Ubi, Nival, Black Hole Entertainment and Limbic were...
It might also have not been the best idea to completely turn Dungeon into a Dark Elf town, maybe just making Dark Elves a very important member of it, while having humans, and other races in it(ie like the role Wood in Rampart and Preserve). Although to fair, in Heroes VI and VII, they gone this direction.
But again with Warhammer now having Dark Elves worship/be lead by a Dragon God of Darkness, and basing their design of the Dark Elf sorceress being remade in Shadya's image, I think Games Worshop(owners, and creators of Warhammer), actually LIKED what Nival and Ubi made with their ideas...
And about the Mobile games, yeah, they look good, I hope they will do a Steam port or something though, Heroes just feel best on PC...And that will get released in the West...
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 13, 2016 02:46 PM |
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I don't get the thing with Chinese only, why can't they translate it? Are ubi such cheapskates that they won't even hire a translator? Or are they just testing the market now? But I doubt they will translate it, since we already got several Chinese only games from ubi set in the old universe, while we are stuck in Ashan.
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 13, 2016 02:46 PM |
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blob2 said:
The thing that bothers me is how they've mixed both Enroth and Ahsan universes together (Gelu, Solmyr?). I don't like it cause it feels really cheap on their behalf and in contradiction with what they said. What happened to their 'Ashan is the NEW setting and we will build around it' policy?
well you see it's a bit like Sauron trying to control Valinor or The Shire,
Erwin Sauron is over in Europe Mordor and can thus influence Mordor fully, that is his base of operations where he has the power, and even influence Gondor a bit even if they think he sucks and has no vision, but he will have a hard time to influence China because it is so far from Middle Earth lol
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 02:46 PM |
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Technically they already did with The Lost Tales. However i dont think this game is gonna have much story if any at all so its truly w.e.
China, give Mutare an undercut pls
@Tonwen lovely post. Yeah Heroes has always drawn/ripped off from...well pretty much every relevant fantasy franchise. Its just that most people here conveniently only notice it from H5 and on. Other franchises drew/draw from both oldVerse and Ashan Heroes as well but that gets ignored too
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 03:14 PM |
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@GenyaArikado
Well thank you dear, it's just sad a lot of people don't notice this stuff.
And how some "new" stuff in Ashan, some posters dislike, have at least some roots in the Old, Ancients verse.
As noted by the unpublished parts of the "Evolotion of" Might & Magic creatures series, by Eugene Xaar, the Breeder/Breeder mother, is for example, essentially an evolution of a classic Might and Magic Monster, ie the Venom Spawn:
[url=http://www.might-and-magic.ru/gallery/image/390-evolyutciya-e-e-e-kakoj-to-mrazi-vo-vselennoj-might-and-magic/]http://www.might-and-magic.ru/gallery/image/390-evolyutciya-e-e-e-kakoj-to-mrazi-vo-vselennoj-might-and-magic/[/url]
There is other interesting stuff on that page.
And I love the hairstyle, I think it would look great for Mutare.
And further about the mobile game, it seems Catherine, is over what seems like the Crypt of her father, and Nicolas seeems to appear at the end as some kind-off Wraith-Lich. This makes me wonder if this game will a remake or reimagining of Heroes III.
I may have to high hopes, but maybe the Forge and Kastore's plotline will conclude, especially that Chinese, from what I know, like the technology-magic combination...
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EnergyZ
Legendary Hero
President of MM Wiki
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posted August 13, 2016 03:17 PM |
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Edited by EnergyZ at 15:17, 13 Aug 2016.
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It is true that MM games have copied a lot content from other franchises. But I don't think the deal is what gets copied. I'd say the problem lies in HOW MUCH gets copied, and how subtle it should be. I mean, is there an indication how much content has been copied in Heroes I, II, III and IV and how much in V, VI and VII? And, more importantly, has that same copying been reduced?
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Come and visit the Might and Magic Wikia!
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 03:34 PM |
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@EnergyZ
Well, it's bit complicated, as there are some gray areas.
The thing is for example, one thing many fans thought is a rip-off of Warcraft, ie Nicolai Gryffin of Arthas, it's actually probably a joke from Nival or Ubi.
To elaborate, much of Wacraft III plot, can be seen as based on Might & Magic VI and Heroes III.
The Burning Legion, are demons, but who invade like aliens. The opposite of sorts of Kreegan, who aliens who look like demons. Kreegans, to help them out, establish the cult of Baa.
The Burning Legion, establishes the Cult of the Damned to help them out.
Here is a thing, that Warcraft, combines the Cult of Baa with Deyja, to create the Cult of the Damned.
Deijya kills and corrupts the noble king Nicolas, into the Lich King.
The Cult of the Damned, corrupts the noble prince Arthas, and he becomes also THE LICH KING.
And both take over the group that corrupted them.
So basically, Nicolai looks like Arthas, as a joke, referncing Arthas was somewhat based on Nicolas, who's counterpart on Ashan, is Nicolai.
Nicolai dies by would with demonic poison, like Nicolas was poisoned.
Nicolai is raised with the ritual of Night as a vampire, by Markal, ex-student of Sandro.
Nicolas, was raised as a lich by Finneas Vilmar ex-pawn of Sandro.
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LizardWarrior
Honorable
Legendary Hero
the reckoning is at hand
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posted August 13, 2016 03:40 PM |
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Kreegans as demon-aliens were estabilished way back before Warcraft 1, in '86 if I am not mistaken. While Heroes 3 was made in 1999 and warcraft 3 in 2002.
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Tonwen616
Tavern Dweller
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posted August 13, 2016 03:48 PM |
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@LizardWarrior
I think you misunderstood me, I meant that it's the Burning Legion, who copied Kreegan, and Warcraft who copied Might & Magic first, not reverse.
As I wrote above:To elaborate, much of Wacraft III plot, can be seen as based on Might & Magic VI and Heroes III.
In WoW the Burning Legion become even more like Kreegan, as it's established that the majority of the Burning Legion, are corrupted alien species.
Well it was allready stated in Warcraft III, but only in World of Warcraft, the current leadership of the Legion, the Eredar, were retconned into originally being normal aliens, if highly advanced in magic.
[EDIT]
I apologize, it's me who misunderstood you LizardWarrior.
You see, I'm not sure if any of the devils in games before Might & Magic VI, were Aliens. There were the Creators mentioned in Might & Magic III in 1990, but they weren't explitelly connected to Devils, although there was an ambigious suggestions.
The series creators though, Jeniffer Bullard and Jon van Caneghem confirmed the Kreegans weren't meant to be connected with Creators, although I think the concept of an primordial enemy of Ancients, that were Creators, might have subconsciously influences the creation of Kreegans.
But the demons in Warcraft I and II weren't really alien-like or aliens, orcs were aliens though. It's only in Warcraft III, the concept of the Burning Legion formed, as demons who are like alien invaders.
So yeah, Kreegan predate the Burning Legion, and very probably inspired it.
Especially that like Inferno in Heroes II, The burning Legion was is alliance of different demonic species(well demonic and Quasi-demonic species with Inferno, along with human cultists).
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verriker
Honorable
Legendary Hero
We don't need another 'eroes
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posted August 13, 2016 04:21 PM |
bonus applied by Maurice on 13 Aug 2016. |
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alright Tonwen616 mate, nice post, I think to expand on or add some thoughts to your various points though lol,
Tonwen616 said:
But to elaborate, let's start from Warhammer and elves.
You see, the elves of ,Antagarich and Jadame, and how they fragmented, already shown strong similarities to Warhammer elves. The original Elves(High Elves in Warhammer, Pure-Blood Elves on Enroth) lived on an isolated Island to the West( Ulthuan in Warhammer, Vori on Enroth). Both fragmented into the original Elves(High Elves and Pure-Bloods) a Wood Elf faction that lives on the "main" continent in the series(The Old World in Warhammer, Antagarich on Enroth), and a Dark Elf faction that lives on especially, the counterpart of Americas of sorts(the Dark Elves living in the New World, specifically Naggaroth in Warhammer, Dark Elves on Jadame on Enroth). The original Elves(High Elves and Pure-Bloods) both also have world ending swords, with prophecies of apocalypse connected to them(Sword of Khaine, also known as Widowmaker and Godslayer in Warhammer, the Sword of Frost on Enroth).
to be honest this origin of the Elves is not unique to Heroes or Warhammer whatsoever IMO, basically they are a completely generic elven origin taken from the Tolkien Middle-Earth elves, which are the forefathers of these long-lived fair-folk elves we see in all modern fantasy, with the elves of Valinor in the west going east and having a schism splitting off into the various clans north and south, light and dark, (the Noldor and the Vanyar), even down to the magical swords of the apocalypse Anguirel and Anglachel, held by Turin in the final battle of Tolkien's world,
I am sure David Mullich and his team ripped off the Tolkien if anything, because he is a massive Tolkien fan lol
Tonwen616 said:
Now to other similarities. In Heroes III, we have three Heroes, who are essentially, references to Warhammer Fantasy and 40,000:
definitely there is a couple of reference and tip of the hat in names of Heroes 3 to the other popular fantasy worlds, note Aeris, Jenova and Sephinroth for instance lol, or Moander, this is because Christian Vanover who named the heroes was a bit inept with making up names,
actually much more of it if you play Might and Magic 6-9, they were fantasy geeks and liked to acknowledge the other popular series with a few very blatant references to names, but, they didn't really go beyond that into copying entire factions or entire art direction for a faction and stuff, they are merely names lol
Tonwen616 said:
I wonder of Malekith wasn't originally to be intended as elven, only changed to Minotaur in production, due to fear of being accused of copyright infringement. He has even an odd description as if done hastily without much research into the Antagarich Minotaurs "One would expect a minotaur to be a fierce warrior, but Malekith wields magic with a fury that rivals the strength of the land's best mages."
Again, this odd, as there is as much Minotaur Warlocks in Heroes III(Deemer, Darkstrom, and Malekith himself), as human ones(Jeddite, Sephinroth and Alamar), in MM6 to MM8 Minotaurs have access to magic, and there are a lot of Minotaur sorcerers in Heroes IV.
there is no evidence that he got changed in production or has a first draft bio (some other heroes did), most of the minotaurs are not the best spellcasters though, the stereotype in Heroes 3 and 4 is that they will fight you in melee with their axe, I think that is the point of the bio that he is as good as any other wizard in the world lol
Tonwen616 said:
Even the Silence, is extremely similar to a crucial even in Warhammer Fantasy, the collapse of the Polar Warp Gates.
the Silence concept in the Might and Magic basically dating back to 1986 with the Gates to Another World in Varn, and got more expanded on in 1991 where they were saying the worlds were cut off, and then again a bit more for Enroth in 1998, that was ripped off from Star Trek or popular sci-fi works if anything I think lol
Tonwen616 said:
You may wonder why NWC took inspiration from Warhammer, since Might & Magic 6?
Well, it's actually very common in fantasy games, both tabletop, and computer/console ones, to take inspiration fro other, older Fantasy, and Sci-Fi works. D&D took inspiration from Tolkien, Poul Anderson, Michael Moorcock etc. Warhammer took inspiration from Tolkien, Poul Anderson, Michael Moorcock and D&D. And the chain reaction goes on.
this is absolutely the case, is almost unavoidable and is going on in all of these games,
this is why, it is a bit weird to me that people talk about originality a lot, and that Genka occasionally likes to have an epiphany about Dungeons and Dragons having influence on Might and Magic as if it is some breakthrough or hypocritical aspect of the arguments or something, when everyone who knows Might and Magic's history knows it began as a derivative Dungeons and Dragons clone with Star Trek references and proud of it,
it's a pastiche of popular fantasy and folklore, it's like cooking a popular meal, the ingredients aren't original, or supposed to be original, the only really original aspect, was the actual execution,
while the point of the Warhammer and Warcraft arguing is it was not supposed to be a Warhammer or Warcraft clone, that was not in the original vision or DNA and can cause identity problems if you go too far, it would be like if Warhammer suddenly had a reboot and the new team started to rip off Dragon Age a whole lot more both visually and conceptually, I bet you that even though Warhammer is not much more original at its core than Dragon Age, the fans of Warhammer would still complain because Warhammer still has a different identity to Dragon Age and is executed differently lol
bear in mind also, that Ubisoft/Erwin's plagiarism of Warhammer is not up for discussion, but an objective fact, as they actually did receive lawsuits from Games Workshop on Heroes 5 saying to cease and desist your plagiarism or else, this did not happen before in the series lol
Tonwen616 said:
Still, I think Kastore was also crucial for Nival and Ubi deciding to make Dungeon a Dark Elf faction, along with the above stuff.
I think there is absolutely zero chance whatsoever, in fact I would confidently say there was negative chance, as in you would need more of a chance to even have zero chance, that Fabrice, Erwin or Nival were even remotely aware of Kastore, let alone looked at Kastore as a crucial or important factor in creating a Dark Elf Dunegon lol
it would not make much sense anyway, I mean we had Yog the Genie in the Barbarians, and Damala the Elf in the Necropolis, Maximus the Orc in the Knights, but they are just foreign mercenaries who defected to those factions, special exceptions to their race, you wouldn't seriously go out and cite them as a good reason to put Orcs in the Haven and such would you lol
Tonwen616 said:
But moving on. The Vampire-Lich connection? Also present since Might & Magic VI. The ritual to become a Lich, is called "Ritual of Endless Night", which sound something that would transform into a vampire(ie you would be eternally walking the night, or be burned to ash by the sunlight...).
In Might & Magic VII, Liches are burned by sunlight, like vampires.
I think the only connection of Enroth's vampires and liches is that they are undead lol
however just to say something, it was hashed out many times I think, although some posts do still take the wrong angle, but the issue of Erwin's liches and the vampires is not an originality issue, because it is somewhat original, it is an issue because people for various reasons just think it is stupid lol
I think it is stupid that Erwin's so-called liches turn into vampires when historically in Heroes the liches are more powerful than the vampires, that's automatically discontinuous, I thought it was cool to keep them separate, that in NWC to be a vampire you are still "handsome" and have more powers but must drink blood and are susceptible to all sorts of hazards, whereas that to become a lich you gain massive powers but must sacrifice your earthly flesh and bone forever, and look like death, those are two different options to become the undead, and two different subcultures of undead which is more diverse and interesting,
it's as stupid to merge those two things together, to me, as it would be to have the zombies drink sacred cat piss or something and slowly turn into werewolves, I mean jesus christ that's pretty stupid no matter how you spin it lol
there is a lot more to bicker and argue about that, but those are some broad points to the disdain about Erwin undead lore lol
Tonwen616 said:
About Necromancers, and spider goddesses, the Spider, was the Necromancers emblem since Heroes II, were they first appeared as a faction:
http://www.h2.acidcave.net/sphinx/homm_ii_necromancer_emblem_by_ashirox.png
it's a very tenuous and reaching connection to be honest IMO, first let's be frank that Erwin was not aware of this, also that's not really the Necromancer emblem of Enroth, it's one of six emblems, actually it was a Sorceress emblem in Heroes 1, and is only ever seen in Heroes 2 if you are the purple player IIRC and you choose the Necropolis,
but for an Erwin analogy, consider that the symbol of Enroth in Heroes 2 is lions, so why don't we put lions in the Knight lineup, have them worship lion god and make the Knight castle the shape of the lion, or the Barbarians once had a Hammer emblem in Heroes 1, so from now on all their units must wield hammers, we should put a sentient hammer in their lineup, they must talk about hammers in campaign and their castle will be a big hammer,
do you get my drift lol, as many discussions have gone over, there is no problem at all to have a spider motif or a spider cult in the Necropolis, the objection is that they tend to go completely nuts with the spider motif to absolute tasteless overkill lol
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Sleeping_Sun
Promising
Famous Hero
Townscreen Architect
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posted August 13, 2016 04:36 PM |
bonus applied by Maurice on 13 Aug 2016. |
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There's a thing called a reference or an allusion to something, while there a also a thing called carbon copy of something. There's a significant difference. A third category (not to be forgotten) is that of archetypes, which doesn't belong to any game since it is something universal, i.e. it is something they share and one cannot pin point in one direction or another.
I acknowledge your post, Tonwen616. However, even after revealing that much info (a reference to this, a reference to that), it cannot hold a candle to a green-undead-mesopotamian-spideresque necropolis of Ubi.
The whole division of the Elves started with Tolkien, right? High elves going west to Aman, Grey and wood being in the western part of the Middle-earth, while dark elves stayed in the East.
Nagash is just a name reference. He plays no significant part in heroes anyway. He is not Sandro.
Gretchen is not necessarily a reference to WH, because there is a female name Gretchen/Gretchin.
I am not sure about Malekith. They are different race (Minotaur/Dark Elf). Beside the name I do not think that there is anything else that connects them. Dungeon did become Dark-Elven, but that is Ubi stuff, not NWC. I do not know if there is anything in M&M games, though. Thus, I do not thing that this is a reference to WH. Again, Malekith in H3 is an insignificant character, unlike in WH, I guess, but I'm not sure since I didn't play WH.
Harpy -> Harpy Hag thing is a possible reference to WH, but not necessarily. Hag can mean "ugly old woman". Thus, they upgrade from young harpy into old one, similar to how young Magi evolves into an old Archmagi. Regarding your theory about Harpies having based their hierarchy on WH may and may not be true. I believe that it is more of an archetypal thing: young -> old -> King/queen. In H3 Medusa upgrades in Medusa Queen, Naga into Naga Queen. If we distance ourselves from Heroes and WH, and go into other franchises, we might see similar progression. In Pokemon: Slowpoke -> Slowbro -> Slowking; Goldeen -> Seaking; Horsea -> Seadra -> Kingdra. In Digimon: KnightChessmon -> BishopChessmon -> Kingchessmon; MetalEtemon -> KingEtemon. For this reason I do not believe that Harpy -> Harpy Hag is a direct reference to WH. Since I am defending NWC thing I'll not comment upon Blod sister/Fury since it is Ubi thing, and people here are well acquainted with H5 Dungeon's rip-off of WH's Dark Elves, which has nothing to do with NWC's Dungeon.
Witch-king does not point automatically to Malekith, since (as far as I am informed) it originated with Tolkien's Witch-king of Angmar. So, essentially all other witch-kings are a reference to him. Furthermore, it is also used in Vassals game, for example. Also, regarding the Witch-king class in Heroes 4 any hero (not just those of Asylum) can become witch-king if they have high enough nobility and chaos magic. So the Asylum/Dungeon only reference is rather weak here.
Another archetypal thing is Silence of Heroes universe, the collapse of polar warp gates for WH, removal of Aman from the Middle-earth, expulsion of Adam and eve from Eden, all indicate that a certain link is broken.
"Both the planet in Warhammer Fantasy, as worlds in Might & Magic, were colonized, and seeded with life by extremely old, technologically advanced, and powerful space faring species(Old Ones in Warhammer, Ancients in Might & Magic). Both connected their worlds with a portal network, which broke down in connection with Demons(although the Demons in Warhammer, are literal demons, not aliens like Kreegans)"  I'm not sure about this. I'll have to check if there are some other games with this trope before saying anything about this.
About the spider emblem in H2 it is just that and nothing more. It is not the sign of the faction, nor any symbol that is of great value to them.
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GenyaArikado
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
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posted August 13, 2016 04:43 PM |
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Quote:
this is why, it is a bit weird to me that people talk about originality a lot, and that Genka occasionally likes to have an epiphany about Dungeons and Dragons having influence on Might and Magic as if it is some breakthrough or hypocritical aspect of the arguments or something, when everyone who knows Might and Magic's history knows it began as a derivative Dungeons and Dragons clone with Star Trek references and proud of it,
I'm well aware the oldVerse ripped off DnD hard, its other users like AnkhVati who apparently need a snowing messiah to understand it lol.
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This MEGA THREAD is pages long: 
